Author Topic: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone  (Read 5674 times)

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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2010, 01:49:16 PM »
Mark, are you sure you have enough stone?  You do have two back seats, you know  :-D


I picked up 2 additional stones for 2 area members and also brought my original stone so they could id it for me...as for the space, this beast only has 2 seats, if it had 4 it would've been easier to shoehorn in the 6-point roll-bar  >:D

It looks like you've hit the jackpot.  Those are all the real deal- and, from what I can tell, you got nice pure stones.

I have a stone in my trunk as well.  I've been trying to muster up the motivation to bring it in.  As I still have to do a cut (and make dough), it's not like I can fire it up tonight.

I hear ya there, I made the other dough I had left from Monday last nite and I know nothing of overnite dough recipes :)


scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2010, 01:55:57 PM »
Doh! The stone with the burn marks is the one I was IDing as serpentine?  What did they say?

It's not looking quite so green/shiny in this light  :angel:

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2010, 02:05:28 PM »
Turns out it actually was/is soapstone but it was sealed?  Josh at Creative Soapstone took a sander to it and in scant minutes it was back to a natural finish.  I learned a TON while I was there.  The piece I have isn't recommended for baking, although it will work, the talc content is much less and mineral content much more.  I'll turn it into a table, chess board or something...hell, who knows, maybe someone in my family gets it as a Christmas gift :D

scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2010, 02:38:50 PM »
Low talc soapstone, serpentine... potatoes, potahtoes  ;D

I have to admit that it really looks different sanded down and in daylight.

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2010, 07:34:24 PM »
You were definitely right!

I couldn't help myself, and not wanting to wait a week until trying out the stone I searched for Jackie Tran's emergency recipe.  I whipped up a batch, let the 380g ball rise for 90 minutes then pushed it out a little too far but the results were amazing :D

The pie cooked in 4 minutes and recipe/fermenting differences aside, the cooking medium really does help.  Again, it took my oven a good while to reach full temp of 550o but once there the temps inside were really even.  I did no oven tricks, nothing above the stone, and placed it on the lowest rack.  When the pie went in, the stone was just above 600, although the front edge read 20-30o lower.  The oven runs for a while but I like the results.  I think I may cut the other one down and use it out on the grill :)

scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2010, 07:51:32 PM »
Oh happy day!  ;D

If you think that's amazing, just wait until you can get a 3 day dough on that bad boy.

What's the 550 pre-heat time- is it that much more than an hour?

You might feel that you pushed it out too far, but, as far as the thickness factor of the best pizzerias in the NY area, that's pretty much it.  I know that you have mellow mushroom-y aspirations, but I'd still like to see how this crust (and longer fermented thin versions) end up comparing to the thicker crusts you make in the future.

I know we talked about this earlier today, but if you're going to make pies that look as good as this, you have to do justice to the photos.  The camera's fine- could you just carry the pizza outdoors for a quick shot?  :)

Edit: In sunlight, your pie would look a little like this:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 08:15:25 PM by scott123 »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2010, 08:18:40 PM »
Oh happy day!  ;D

If you think that's amazing, just wait until you can get a 3 day dough on that bad boy.

Trust me, I can't wait for next weekend!  After trying this dough and the 4-day yesterday, I can really tell the difference!

What's the 550 pre-heat time- is it that much more than an hour?

You might feel that you pushed it out too far, but, as far as the thickness factor of the best pizzerias in the NY area, that's pretty much it.  I know that you have mellow mushroom-y aspirations, but I'd still like to see how this crust (and longer fermented thin versions) end up comparing to the thicker crusts you make in the future.

Probably 75-90 minutes, I wasn't watching too closely but will be next time :)  As for the thicker crusts, I'm not really after something as thick as a Mellow (honestly it's too much dough for me but I like the taste) but do want something a tad thicker so I'll be sticking to this recipe for a while, no worries :D

I know we talked about this earlier today, but if you're going to make pies that look as good as this, you have to do justice to the photos.  The camera's fine- could you just carry the pizza outdoors for a quick shot?  :)

With a compliment like that, I feel obligated :D  How 'bout we agree on some PhotoShop settings? :D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 08:24:52 PM by StrayBullet »

scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2010, 08:38:35 PM »
Photoshop settings, huh?  ;D

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2010, 10:31:05 AM »
Looks like LeRoy Neiman :D


Offline Tampa

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Re: What's the thinnest Soapstone you've seen?
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2010, 06:55:37 PM »
Many thanks to StrayBullet for picking up a couple of pieces of soapstone for us local pie-heads.

Bob is alreading putting his stone to good use cooking three pies tonight.  He's probably eating as I type.  burp.  Hopefully the pies will be picture-worthy.

As anyone seen a thin soapstone for baking?  I ran an extended warm up test on the rotisserie pizza grill this afternoon using that fat slab of soapstone.  It usually takes 15 minutes to reach 700F with cordierite, with one inch plus soapstone, it took 40 minutes.  Assuming I can reduce the throw temperature from by 75 degrees because of the better cooking performance, it still takes this slab twice as long (30 minutes) to be ready at 625F.

It seems that the thick stone is great for retaining heat but that comes with a warm-up cost.  Has anyone seen thin soapstone used for baking, say 1/2" or so total thickness?  It seems like a thinner stone would work just fine, but I'd rather hear from someone who has tried it (or seen it).

Dave


scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2010, 07:17:57 PM »
Dave, I'm sorry to hear about the extended preheat. That's a bummer. Btw, that 75 degrees is kind of a best guess.  The improved conductivity might buy you a hundred degree differential, and possibly even more.

My local distributor sells 18 x 18 (and 12 x 12) half inch soapstone tiles in the sub $20 range. I know of no one that's baking with them, though.  I tend to discourage people from buying them due to potential recovery issues, but with a grill that might not be a problem.

There's also this:

http://www.amazon.com/All-Clad-Stainless-Steel-Serving-13-inch-Pizza-Baking/dp/B0000E2OAP/?tag=pizzamaking-20

They talk about a 1" thickness, but that's with the carrier.  I'm pretty sure this is 1/2" thick.

We've talked about this elsewhere, but, as much as I'm head over heals in love with soapstones for home oven use, I'm not entirely certainly how well they'll incorporate into a high heat grilling scenario. It is an amazing material, so maybe you'll find an aspect about it that makes it wonderful for the grill, but running through scenarios in my head, I'm just not seeing that huge of a benefit of greater conductivity.

Edit: I think soapstone is the most durable choice for a direct flame grilling scenario, but I think most people are getting plenty of wear out of their firebricks and cordierite.

Offline sear

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2010, 08:42:14 PM »
Looks great  ;D


if your pizza was entering earths atmosphere it would look something like this   :pizza:

scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2010, 10:31:14 PM »
Houston, we've got a pizza  ;D

Offline Tampa

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2010, 01:09:59 PM »
Thanks Scott for you insightful comments, as usual.

You are right, soapstone on a grill is a bit of an unusual situation.  However, even Bob tried his slab last night as a replacement for cordierite in a commercial pizza oven and he commented to me about the long warm-up and cool down.  (The skies over Tampa were extra warm last night.)  I suspect we would all like a ~1/2 thick soapstone if it were available and the stone didnt crack under regular oven use.

If someone has experience with this please chime in.  Im thinking that soapstone is a fairly soft stone and shouldnt be that hard to cut I probably just need the right shop.  I know cordierite is often praised for its ability to handle thermal shock, so soapstone probably isnt quite so forgiving.  Still, I threw that slab right on the grill, full blast from lower and upper (IR) burners and it held up fine.  So with that vast knowledge, and my nominal financial investment at risk, Im confident that a soapstone would work just fine.  Ive just got to find a cutter or a grinder (if I only want one stone when done).

Dave

scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2010, 01:49:21 PM »
Dave, soapstone, imo, is more forgiving thermally than cordierite.  At least, high talc soapstone without too many imperfections- which is what you/most other soapstone owners have. We are talking about two incredibly thermally durable materials, but, I think, in a direct flame setting, soapstone will outlive cordierite.

Before you take the time to look into ways of cutting/grinding the stone you have, I would call Creative and see if they have the 18 x 18 x .5 tiles.  I would think that spending about twenty bucks on a tile would be far less headache than cutting a stone in half lengthwise.

Offline Tampa

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2010, 02:18:07 PM »
Thanks Scott.  I've got a call in to creative.  I did stop by a local supplier and they told me another local shop that could cut this thick stone sideways either using diamonds on a string (my words) or water jet.  I'll still going to talk with creative before doing anything.
Dave

scott123

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2010, 02:31:22 PM »
They use a wire to cut soapstone into slabs in the quarry. That's probably the diamond string method you're talking about.

If the cut is precise enough, you could end up with two 1/2"ish slabs- enough for both you and Bob.


Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2010, 06:35:19 PM »
Dave, the place you and I talked about, the one that trimmed my original piece for the grill is:

WE International Marble and Granite, 8006 Benjamin.  For what you're asking, it may take a bit longer to setup but he cut mine while I was standing there :)

I just made up 2 balls and they'll have cold-soaked for 94 hours before turning into pizza magic this Friday :D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 07:30:29 PM by StrayBullet »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2010, 07:30:04 PM »
Hey Scott, Dave, et al,

Any thoughts on placing the oven rack as close to the broiler element as possible and heating the stone high in the oven with the broiler, vice low in the oven with the bake element?  Would heating with the broiler element reduce the heating time?  The issue is once placed, you're not moving that stone while it's hot so the pie would have to be baked up high as well.  Just talking out loud...

Offline Bobino414

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2010, 09:02:12 PM »

Soapstone vs Cordierite

Yesterday afternoon (StrayBullet) delivered my 20" x20" 3 cm. thick soapstone. Thanks SB. I had three experimental doughs ready so why wait. I removed the cordierite stone from the top deck. Kept Dave's metal lath in place and with Dave's help in went the new stone.
Bake temp target was 640 degrees. I timed the stone heating
Time       Temp Cordierite       Temp Soapstone
5 min            325                        200
15                560                        320
25                650                        400
40                750                        550
60                630                        560
90                640                        640

The three doughs were made in one batch:Kyrol, 60%,IDY,salt.   The only variable to this  point was the length of bench rise: a.-1 hr, b.-2hr, and c.-3hr prior to 2 days refrigeration. Each pie was baked approx 6 min.
Pie "a" went on the soapstone and came out chewy.  The tester (from N.J./N.Y.) particularly liked it.
Pie "b" went onto the Cordierite and came out with a light crisp and light crust with  nice voids.
Pie "c" was difficult to stretch so the dough was thicker and was placed on the Soapstone.   It was too chewy for my taste but had a nice crisp.
I was able to get char points on all three.

I then  timed the cool down; starting temp 650
Time        Temp Cordierite     Temp Soapstone
30 min              480                      540
60                    412                      512
90                    380                      450

So, what does this mean?  IMO
1.They cook the same. I think the difference in outcome was based on the dough "management" and not the stone.  The only way to be sure is to eliminate the dough variable.  That will be the next test.
2.Soapstone is probably better suited for a commercial environment as recovery time would be shorter.  This comment is probably flawed as the soapstone was thicker-greater mass. This can be revisited if TAMPA Dave can get his stone cut in half.








Offline Tampa

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2010, 01:39:04 PM »
The only think Id add is bugger, that slab of soapstone is heavy!  You can see the massive size compared to the factory-standard cordierite stone in the commercial, 2-rack, pizza oven in the picture.  The bottom stone is cordierite, the fat slab in the middle is soapstone, and the top charred thingy is part of the upper oven frame.

Dave

Offline sear

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2010, 03:28:35 PM »
i asked texeria if they would cut soapstone in half , she said they could only sand it down to size. is it just me or is that alot of sanding ?

Offline Tampa

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2010, 09:11:43 PM »
I heard a similar thing.  I spoke with our supplier yesterday and they use a router with a diamond bit making numerous passes.  I'm considering having my stone cut to a size similar to my well-performing cordierite stone.
Dave

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2010, 04:47:42 PM »
Here's the latest results and my wife really liked the outcome :D

Cooked in a regular oven with no tricks.  I placed the soapstone on the second position down from the broiler and heated the stone up to 500o in 60 minutes.  At time of baking the stone read 600o.  I was able to achieve the temps intermittently using the broiler during preheat and during the last 2 minutes of baking.  Total cook time was 5 minutes.

I used the same recipe I've been using since the start (65% hydration, .25% IDY, 1.5% Salt, 1% Oil, 1% Sugar), just substituting Kyrol flour for my normal AT (thanks Dave and Bob!!!).  It was cold soaked for 91 hours.

Offline Tampa

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Re: StrayBullet and the Holy Soapstone
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2010, 10:34:51 AM »
Stray,
Great looking pie.  I haven't cooked at 600F, but everything looks good in the pics.
Dave