Author Topic: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour  (Read 2374 times)

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Offline abilak

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18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« on: July 19, 2010, 12:42:49 PM »
624g all trumps unbromated flour
345g filtered water
3g IDY
18g kosher salt
1.25 TBS olive oil
4g garlic powder (mixed into flour)
3g onion powder (mixed into flour)

4-day slow rise in retarding pan
let dough sit at room temp for 30 mins
7/11 tomatoes and 9oz grande whole-milk block cheese shredded

hand-tossed then stretched onto 18" screen
stone on lowest oven position, oven pre-heated to 550deg for 1.5 hours
baked on screen for 4mins, then removed and baked directly on stone for about 5 more, rotating once

I have been using the all trums bromated flour for the last 2 50-lb bags...
I am about half way into this unbromated bag of all trumps.
Hmmmm... I switched due to the postings about health-risks/etc due to bromation.
I have to say... the pies just come out better with the bromated flour.. They just spring up a little more, are slightly more tasty, and come out a little bit crunchier, using the same recipe and technique.
It's been ages since I've used Sir Lancelot.. I might try a bag of that again soon.

In any case, the pizza is always tasty and better than almost all local places near me in FL.


Offline briterian

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 12:59:17 PM »
Cool. I have had similar findings with bromated.  How founded are these claims.  Is it like if you eat a 1 lb a bromated flour every day for rest of your life you mind beocome ill. What about a pizza every two weeks...are we safe?   I like adding the garlic/onion powder.   I'll have to try that.  Ever think about starting your pie on stone and flipping to to screen at the end?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 01:00:56 PM by briterian »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 01:04:49 PM »
Great pizza as usual, glad to see you posting again, it has been a while.

Offline norma427

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 01:07:35 PM »
abilak,

Your pizza looks delicious to me, when using the unbromated All Trumps.  :) I also noticed when using bromated All Trumps I did like that flour better.  I also changed to KASL now because of the bromate issue.  I donít know how many pizzas you would have to eat for the bromates to be an issue, but I still use some Kyrol flour in experimenting and it is bromated. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline abilak

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 01:43:57 PM »
I've been busy but I still make 2-3 pies a week on average.
My stone is exactly 18" round so if I hand-toss the dough, and make an 18" pie, it is very very difficult to get it on the stone just right.
Therefore I stretch the dough onto the 18" screen and bake for about 4 mins until the bottom crust forms. Then it is easy to pop off the screen and right onto the stone for the rest of the time. One of these days I'm going to get/order a 19" round or 20" square stone if it will fit to give me some more room. I really like the 18" size. Sometimes I divide the dough in half and make 2-bar pies. These of course I place right onto the stone, no screen needed.

As for the un/bromated issue... I have no idea. They say that chemicals used in the bromation process can cause cancer... but what doesn't? Many countries around the world banned the use of bromated flour, and a good amount of the USA from what I've read. It just kind of makes me think if its worth it or not? I think I'm going to give the sir lancelot a go next time if I can get the 50-lb bag somewhere. I also make bread with the dough so we actually do go through about 4 bags a year.

Everyone that comes over loves my pie and we really enjoy it too, so I'm not complaining... It's just that I can help but notice it comes out "better" with the bromated flour.

Offline jever4321

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 02:58:02 PM »
Nice looking pie!
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »
Andy,

I think if this site gave out awards for best skin stretching, you'd be the winner.  Well, maybe you and Terry Deane could share the award :) Beautiful form (as always).

The safety of bromate has been discussed (sometimes quite passionately) in this forum on quite a few occasions.  If you do a search, a large number of threads come up.  My current belief is that bromate, as long as it's used conscientiously (i.e., doughs are fully baked), is safe.  The status of bromate has less to do with safety and more with bureaucracy.  For decades, it's been well known that bromate is a carcinogen.  Many years ago, regulators basically said, "okay, bromate is a carcinogen, but we can't detect it in baked bread.  As long as it isn't detected, it's fine to use."  Years later, detection abilities improved dramatically and residue was found.  Instead of looking at the actual amount of bromate left in bread and deciding whether or not it posed a threat, they looked back at the ancient law that said "as long it's not detected it's okay," and made the illogical jump to "if it's in there, it must be harmful."

Bromate is added to flour in parts per million and is detected in parts per billion. There's absolutely no credible research proving that bromate, in such an infinitesimally small amount poses a threat to health. A walk outside- sunlight, will expose you to about a thousand times the carcinogenic threat that a slice of pizza will. They've been working on bromate replacers for at least 50 years and nothing comes close to mimicking it's effects. Just about every single non chain pizzeria outside of California uses bromated flour.  In the NY area it's almost impossible to buy commercial unbromated flour.  It's the best tool for the job, and, imo, it's perfectly safe.

As far as the baking properties of bromated flour, Scott R sums up the differences brilliantly in this post here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9814.msg91030.html#msg91030

I feel exactly the same way- that, you can match the results of a bromated flour with an unbromated one, but it takes a lot of effort and is far more difficult.  Bromate gives you certain tolerances- mixing times, hydration, fermentation, bake time, that unbromated flour lacks. 

There's no free lunch here. There's no single brand of unbromated flour that you're going to be able to utilize in your current recipe that will match the oven spring and texture of bromated AT.   It's never going to happen.  From my experience with unbromated commercial flour, Bouncer (Bay State Milling) seems to be showing a little promise, but it's not a miracle worker.  The chemistry just isn't there.  KASL, imo, will not only be more costly, but it will most likely give you LESS oven spring than you're getting now, not more.  I sincerely believe that if you want that additional spring and texture that you were getting from bromated flour, the answer isn't finding a better unbromated flour, but finding a better stone. Take that 25 bucks or so that you were going to shell out on KASL and invest it something that will guarantee you results.

Which brings us to soapstone.  The last time we talked about soapstone (6 months ago), you said you were going to look around for a supplier.  Any luck? I know that one of our newer members, Straybullet, found a distributor in the Tampa area that seems to be willing to sell him a 17 x 17 x 1.25 slab for $75:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11394.0.html

I don't know how far Tampa is for you, but if you could get a comparable price on a 19" or 20" square slab, that would put you in the realm of a 4-5 minute pie (close to the kinds of pies you were getting with your old modded oven).

With your skin forming skills and years of experience, you should be able to take the superior conductivity of soapstone and make something that not only looks like a work of art, but tastes like a work of art as well.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 10:19:33 PM by scott123 »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 05:14:05 PM »
Your work is amazing!!!

Which brings us to soapstone.  The last time we talked about soapstone (6 months ago), you said you were going to look around for a supplier.  Any luck? I know that one of our newer members, Straybullet, found a distributor in the Tampa area that seems to be willing to sell him a 17 x 17 x 1.25 slab for $75:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11394.0.html

I don't know how far Tampa is for you, but if you could get a comparable price on a 19" or 20" square slab, that would put you in the realm of a 4-5 minute pie (close to the kinds of pies you were getting with your old modded oven).


I may have even found a lower cost source down in Punta Gorda...waiting to hear back now :)

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 08:37:23 PM »
Your pizza looks amazingly similar to mine, I use KASL with a sourdough starter and I also use an 18" screen which is a necessary because my stone is only 16".

Offline abilak

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Re: 18" Lehmann style with All Trumps non-bromated flour
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 08:34:12 AM »
Tampa is a bit of a drive, but yes... Once I am ready to buy a larger stone I am going as thick as I can.


Offline abilak

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Barpie from same dough recipe
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2010, 12:54:28 PM »
I made 2 barpies out of the same dough recipe the other day...
I just take one of the dough balls from the recipe above, and split it in half before the rise.
Then I stretch those 2 smaller dough balls by hand to make 2 12-13" bar pies
These go directly from the peel to the stone and take about 6 minutes to cook at 550.
The pics are bad because they are from my cell-phone. I'll use the camera next time.
They do come out quite tasty.


 

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