Author Topic: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change  (Read 2332 times)

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Offline inSaNE iRIsH

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Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« on: July 27, 2010, 07:03:02 AM »
Hello all,  I have been working on my pizza skills for the last several months and have started to get pretty consistent results.   Mostly have been using Pete-zaa's Papa John's clone as my family seems to like it the best.  We are planning a trip to Denver Colorado in a couple weeks to visit family, and since one of my nieces has a peanut allergy they are never able to get pizza because no one will guarantee it to be peanut free.  So I was thinking about making some dough to take with me to cook pizza for them while we are there.  Which leads me to my questions. 

1) Assuming I am cold fermenting my dough, what effect will the change in elevation from Michigan to Denver have on the dough and what adjustments should I make to the formulation to address them?  2) Also, what effect will the higher altitude have when I go to cook my pizzas (I cook on a stone in the oven at max temp setting which is 550) and what adjustments should I make to the dough and/or my cooking technique to address them?

Thanks.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2010, 07:21:18 AM »
IR - I'm not quite qualified to give a proper answer but I have been interested in the same questions for some time. Some additional info that may help others help you...
What elevation are you currently at?
What type of yeast are you currently using, how much (bakers %), and how long are you fermenting (include bulk rise, rest periods, cold ferment, and proof times).
Are you planning to use the same yeast in Colorado?
Where is the stone in the oven relative to the heating element? Pics of your oven setup? Any idea what your stone temp is right before you load the pizza?

JT

buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 08:07:35 AM »
I made the move from Colorado to sea level and found I had to increase my yeast quantities, because of the increased air pressure here. Maybe 25% ? I suggest you cut back slightly on the yeast. Also at higher altitudes your pie will take longer to bake.
Don
PS. Not awake yet. You most likely have to add more water to the dough because of the dryness there.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 08:12:01 AM by buceriasdon »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 08:17:28 AM »
Higher altitude will mean that the gas produced by yeast metabolism will create larger bubbles due to the lower atmospheric pressure. This can result in greater expansion of the dough. It can also result in less expansion if the bubbles are so large and the gluten structure so weak that the bubbles burst. This effect is can be a big problem for quickbreads, cakes, etc. where they will rise mightily and then fall flat just as mightily. No way to tell if it will be a problem for your dough until you try it, but I doubt you have much to worry about. Maybe just use a little less yeast.

Also, higher altitude can also mean lower humidity, so you'll want to keep your dough well covered during proofing so it doesn't dry out.

Boiling point will also be about 10F lower, so if you are cooking a sauce, it may take longer to reach the desired doneness.  

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 09:44:03 AM »
So I was thinking about making some dough to take with me to cook pizza for them while we are there.

inSaNE iRIsH,

Is there a reason why you can't make the dough at your destination in Denver? If you must make the dough in Michigan to bring with you to Denver, how will you be traveling? The travel problem could be much bigger than the elevation problem.

Peter

Offline inSaNE iRIsH

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 11:52:47 AM »
inSaNE iRIsH,

Is there a reason why you can't make the dough at your destination in Denver? If you must make the dough in Michigan to bring with you to Denver, how will you be traveling? The travel problem could be much bigger than the elevation problem.

Peter

In order to make the dough in Denver I would either need to transport all the ingredients with me or find them there locally (who knows what I would be able to find), I figured it would be easier to make the dough here and just have to take my stone and peel with me.  We make the trip in one 19 hour car ride, so my plan was to transport it in the same sealed containers I normally refrigerate in kept in a cold cooler.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 12:51:29 PM »
In order to make the dough in Denver I would either need to transport all the ingredients with me or find them there locally (who knows what I would be able to find), I figured it would be easier to make the dough here and just have to take my stone and peel with me.  We make the trip in one 19 hour car ride, so my plan was to transport it in the same sealed containers I normally refrigerate in kept in a cold cooler.


inSaNE iRIsH,

One approach you could take is to freeze the dough balls and defrost then en route in your cooler (which would be equivalent to defrosting them in your refrigerator) and use them shortly after you reach your Denver destination. Once defrosted, which usually takes about a day in the refrigerator, the dough balls should keep for about another day in the refrigerator at your destination. Usually when you know that you want to freeze the dough balls up front, you increase the amount of yeast because freezing kills some of it. I don't know which of the PJ clone doughs you have been using, but in general I think they should hold up reasonably well to freezing because of the high amount of oil and relatively high protein content (if you are using bread flour or high-gluten flour or flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten). However, if you choose not to freeze the dough balls and, instead, to make and then transport fresh dough balls in your cooler in the car, you will have to take steps to insure that the dough balls do not overferment during the 19-hour car ride. This usually means using cold water, less yeast, and/or doing somewhat unorthodox things, like using dry (nor-rehydrated) ADY in the dough.

Denver is a pretty big place, so I would think that you should be able to find the ingredients you need to make fresh PJ clone doughs at your destination, just as you would do at home in Michigan. You would perhaps have better quality control making the dough fresh at your destination.

With respect to altitude issues and possible formulation changes and other changes, I have seen recommendations that vary quite widely, based on a fairly wide range of altitudes, from about 2500 feet above sea level on up. Denver is about 5200 feet above sea level and, as such, may be somewhat on the cusp (depending on which expert's advice you follow) as to whether your dough formulation needs adjustment and/or you need to alter bake times and temperatures. Even experts like Tom Lehmann waffle a bit on these issues, as you will note from his PMQTT posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=59128#p59128 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38310#p38310.

Depending on what you decide to do, you may find yourself having to make adjustments to the dough formulation to compensate for travel issues and/or elevation issues, and possibly changes to the bake protocol.

Please let us know what you decide to do and with what results. That is how we all learn.

Peter


parallei

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 02:53:32 PM »
inSaNE iRIsH,

Concerning finding your ingredients in Denver:  I'm sure some of us Denver folks can point you in the right direction if need be.  Just give us a shout....

Parallei

Offline WestCountry

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 03:18:53 PM »
Yep...let us know if you need to find the goodies in Denver and we can try to point you in the right direction!

 :pizza:
Chris

Offline inSaNE iRIsH

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 04:12:04 PM »
thanks for the offers guys, I guess as I think about it the main ingredient I am concerned about is flour.  The only flour I have been making pizza with is All Trumps, so that is what I am familiar with.  In order to get it here locally I had to go directly to a distributor and buy a 50# bag, which is not something I would be prepared to do out in Denver.  I guess the more I think about it the only ingredients I would really need to transport is flour and I would probably take yeast so it wouldn't be so bad....of course I would have to take my scales as well...

ok, so assuming I make the dough fresh in Denver it sounds like I would increase the hydration and decrease the yeast, but how much?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 04:17:33 PM by inSaNE iRIsH »

parallei

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Re: Pizza Dough & Altitude Change
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 11:02:12 PM »
inSaNE iRIsH,

I don’t modify pizza or “rustic” style bread dough for altitude and they are fine.  As Bill/SFN pointed out, cake and cupcakes are a different matter.  See:  http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes2008/high-altitude-baking.html for high altitude baking information.  Use your normal recipe, yeast percentage and the hydration that “feels” right.  It’ll be fine.   

Parallei

What "feels" right to me is slightly tacky.  You know, like a tack cloth.....but thats just me.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 11:06:05 PM by parallei »