New Soapstone

[sear]

Why not try heating the stone and cooking entirely with the broiler element? You'll have a heat blast from both sides.

Very interested in seeing more...please keep us all updated!

i've sort-of done this, it takes longer to preheat.
and you would have to take the temp of the bottom of the stone or turn oven off and test top temp after a couple minutes

[jever4321]

Just finished round 2 and your suggestions brought me back to what I was accustomed to. The pie cooked in about 7 minutes and was much more evenly browned and crispy. I take that back. It was WAY crispier than any other pizza I had made in the past. The cornice was a bit undercooked for my taste, but ultimately it was a pretty good effort for me. I think in the future I want to crank it back up with a different dough formula, and see if I can do a 3-4 minute pie.

[jever4321]

More pics.

[jever4321]

Why not try heating the stone and cooking entirely with the broiler element? You'll have a heat blast from both sides.

Very interested in seeing more...please keep us all updated!

I almost tried this idea. Maybe I will next time.

[scott123]

Jay, that's pretty darn respectable for  KABF pie.  I expected a little more umph from the convection, but I guess all convection ovens probably work a little differently.

By the way, I'm not really 'pro' convection.  Convection tends to brown very aggressively and very evenly and, imo, doesn't quite match the results of a commercial deck oven. I recommended convection today as a relatively easy way to recreate something close to your previous attempts without having to mess too much with broiler.  As you move forward and start trimming that bake time, you're going to be in the same boat as I am- broiler.  Every oven is going to be different, but, as I told Sear, I turn the broiler on a few seconds before the pie goes in (so the element gets hot), then I launch the pie, wait about 2 minutes, turn the oven off and then let the pie bake another 2 minutes.  It took me a little trial and error to adjust my broiling time, but now that I have it, the results are consistent.

[jever4321]

Thanks again Scott for all your advise. I think you're right about the broiler method, and I will try it next time. In the lower oven set up, the convection fan is under the stone so I’m not convinced it was doing that much. I think I will really enjoy this stone when I figure out its nuances. I will update this thread as I learn.

[jever4321]

Another round with the soapstone in the lower oven. This time I used Primo Gusto flour I got from GFS. $17. per 50 lb bag like Scott recommended. The flour bag said pan pizza and artisan bread crust, and only has 4G protein. Here's what I used.

Flour (100%):    414.45 g  |  14.62 oz | 0.91 lbs
Water (63%):    261.1 g  |  9.21 oz | 0.58 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.3 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Oil (1%):    4.14 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    4.14 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Total (167%):   692.13 g | 24.41 oz | 1.53 lbs | TF = 0.1015

[jever4321]

Pics.

[jever4321]

Also used Whole Foods brand whole milk mozzarella. It was pretty good.

[scott123]

Jay, I'm seeing an improvement over the KABF.  Are you tasting it?

Bake time? Did you use the broiler technique that we discussed?

Where are you at with your dough management?  Are you still refrigerating it overnight?  Pre-forming, about where are you at on volume? Doubled? Tripled?

I think you could increase your oven spring substantially with a thinner stretch, especially on the rim.  The thicker the dough, the more water you have in one place, the slower it takes to boil and form dough expanding steam.

[jever4321]

Jay, I'm seeing an improvement over the KABF.  Are you tasting it?

Bake time? Did you use the broiler technique that we discussed?

Where are you at with your dough management?  Are you still refrigerating it overnight?  Pre-forming, about where are you at on volume? Doubled? Tripled?

I think you could increase your oven spring substantially with a thinner stretch, especially on the rim.  The thicker the dough, the more water you have in one place, the slower it takes to boil and form dough expanding steam.




This was the best pie I have made to date. I cold fermented for 24 hrs. The dough didn't rise too much in the fridge. Maybe just shy of 50% rise. It streched easily. I think it was less crispy because I used a higher hydration, but I did use the broiler method you described earlier, and I had to rim the cornice a little bit. I made another dough ball today for more experimenting tomorow or Saturday.


Oh it cooked in a 550 oven in about 4 minutes, with the broiler on the entire time. I think I might give the upper oven another shot with the broiler method. I will share the results. Thanks again.

[scott123]

A personal record, huh? Gotta love it! 

One of the benefits of using high gluten bromated flour is that it can expand to fairly extreme volumes without collapsing. 2x and 3x volume are pretty comfortable parameters. If cold fermentation doesn't give you much expansion, try letting it warm up for a bit longer before opening. If, say, you leave the dough out for an hour, try two hours. As the yeast warms up, it will start pumping out CO2 in large quantities. I would also considering increasing the yeast slightly on future doughs so that the dough hits a 2x to 2.5x mark coming out of the fridge on the day you want to use it.

One of the tricky parts to using the broiler with your oven temp maxed out is that the oven will cycle off during the bake.  I've been playing around with ways around this.  If I prop open the door, I can keep the broiler on, but I get uneven baking on the pie.  Lately, I've been preheating the stone to 550 and then turning the oven off for a few minutes before baking.  This lets the overall temp drop a bit and gives me more broiler time.

[jever4321]

This is the yeast I have been using. Is this commonly used? I'm not getting the kind of rise even close to 2x, and it's kind of hard to imagine that much rise. Doesn't it shrink back to the original size when forming the shell?

In the dough I made today I used a new jar of ADY. I'm curious how it will work. I was getting tired of throwing out half a packet of yeast every time I wanted to make a pie.

[scott123]

Jay, I think everyone has gone through a packet yeast phase. I used to spend a lot of time worrying about expiration dates, storage, viability and proofing, and, now that I look back, I probably worried way too much about it.  That being said, using jarred yeast, and having relative consistency for what ends up being about 140 pies, makes me giddy. I think you will be far happier using jarred yeast.

I've had high gluten bromated flours go to 5x on me.  If you take a bromated flour 60ish hydration dough, one that hasn't been kneaded too much, and leave it at room temp for long enough, as long as you have a few live yeast cells, it will double and triple eventually.  It might start to collapse around the 4x mark, but that's not the end of the world.

Dough does deflate quite a bit when forming the skin, but if you handle the dough relatively gently and don't press down/deflate the rim, you can end up with an airy rim going into the oven- a rim that will expand even more with oven spring and become super airy.

[c0mpl3x]

Gordon Food Service, perfect!!!

They have a handful of high gluten flours, but one of the more popular brands, Primo Gusto, is both a bargain and comes highly recommended. It should be less $17 for a 50 lb. bag.

50 lbs is a lot of flour to store, but, if you want the best pizza, it's the only way to go.

1 1/2" looks great. The oven setup looks like  winner.

primo gusto 50/50 blend for cheese is VERY good and is about $37 per 20lb case.



also i find that redstar is one of the better tasting more reliable yeasts.  fleishmans often tastes very rank and has mediocre performance consistency.

sams club has 1lb (16oz) jars of yeast for 4.31 last time i was there.  cheaper than 4oz jar at the supermarket (some charge 12-13 dollars for 4oz!)

[jever4321]

I did see the Primo Gusto blend in the fridge at GFS and almost bought it because it resembled Grande in the way it was shredded / cubed. I think I will try it next time I buy cheese.

I had an idea to use a serving round instead of a screen to start my pie. I figured maybe 2 minutes, then remove it and put the pizza on the stone. I thought it might help the top cook, and protect the bottom a bit from burning while the crust sets up. It will also be easier to handle / launch.  I’m a little concerned about it sticking to the serving round though. In one of my first failures, I had a pie stick to a screen like it was welded there. I had to fold the screen up, with the pizza on it and throw it all away, which was pretty disappointing because it actually looked like my first edible pizza. Needless to say, that was the fist and only time I used anything between the dough and the stone.

[sear]

i have yet to touch any type of commercial yeast after switching to the san francisco sour dough starter 

[c0mpl3x]

I did see the Primo Gusto blend in the fridge at GFS and almost bought it because it resembled Grande in the way it was shredded / cubed. I think I will try it next time I buy cheese.

I had an idea to use a serving round instead of a screen to start my pie. I figured maybe 2 minutes, then remove it and put the pizza on the stone. I thought it might help the top cook, and protect the bottom a bit from burning while the crust sets up. It will also be easier to handle / launch.  I’m a little concerned about it sticking to the serving round though. In one of my first failures, I had a pie stick to a screen like it was welded there. I had to fold the screen up, with the pizza on it and throw it all away, which was pretty disappointing because it actually looked like my first edible pizza. Needless to say, that was the fist and only time I used anything between the dough and the stone.

not enough anti-stick to the pizza whether it be flour cornmeal or oil is the problem.  or your dough was too warm?

[scott123]

I had an idea to use a serving round instead of a screen to start my pie. I figured maybe 2 minutes, then remove it and put the pizza on the stone. I thought it might help the top cook, and protect the bottom a bit from burning while the crust sets up. It will also be easier to handle / launch.

Jay, if at all possible, I would recommend avoiding putting anything between the stone and the dough.  A screen will give you air pockets, which, to a small extent, will insulate the dough and give you less spring.  A serving round will invariably warp, causing it to contact the stone in some areas, but not others and give you a very uneven bake.

If the bottom is cooking quickly, then, rather than slowing the bottom down, my suggestion would be to speed the top up. How far is the stone from the broiler? Perhaps you can go up a shelf.  Also, I know you've been turning the broiler on- does your oven allow convection with broiling? I would give that a shot- and, as I said before, make sure your broiler is kicking in/glowing red during the bake.  If the broiler is glowing red, you should get more than enough color in 3 minutes.

[jever4321]

Thanks again Scott. I have a doughball ready to go, but I think I will have to wait for Sat. to make another pie. I have decided to give the upper oven another try, using your broiler method. I have only 2-1/2 inches from the top of the stone to the element, so things are a bit cramped. I think the stone gets hotter in the top as it is right on the element, and there is less air space on the sides so the heat is trapped form the thermostat a bit. I will also take your advise about not using a screen or serving round. Thanks for your perspective. I'll post the results as I have them.