Author Topic: New Soapstone  (Read 7342 times)

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Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2010, 10:01:17 PM »
Thanks again Scott for all your advise. I think you're right about the broiler method, and I will try it next time. In the lower oven set up, the convection fan is under the stone so Iím not convinced it was doing that much. I think I will really enjoy this stone when I figure out its nuances. I will update this thread as I learn.
-Jay


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2010, 02:38:00 PM »
Another round with the soapstone in the lower oven. This time I used Primo Gusto flour I got from GFS. $17. per 50 lb bag like Scott recommended. The flour bag said pan pizza and artisan bread crust, and only has 4G protein. Here's what I used.

Flour (100%):    414.45 g  |  14.62 oz | 0.91 lbs
Water (63%):    261.1 g  |  9.21 oz | 0.58 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.3 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Oil (1%):    4.14 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    4.14 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Total (167%):   692.13 g | 24.41 oz | 1.53 lbs | TF = 0.1015
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2010, 02:38:42 PM »
Pics.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2010, 02:40:49 PM »
Also used Whole Foods brand whole milk mozzarella. It was pretty good.
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2010, 03:26:29 PM »
Jay, I'm seeing an improvement over the KABF.  Are you tasting it?

Bake time? Did you use the broiler technique that we discussed?

Where are you at with your dough management?  Are you still refrigerating it overnight?  Pre-forming, about where are you at on volume? Doubled? Tripled?

I think you could increase your oven spring substantially with a thinner stretch, especially on the rim.  The thicker the dough, the more water you have in one place, the slower it takes to boil and form dough expanding steam.


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2010, 03:37:45 PM »
Jay, I'm seeing an improvement over the KABF.  Are you tasting it?

Bake time? Did you use the broiler technique that we discussed?

Where are you at with your dough management?  Are you still refrigerating it overnight?  Pre-forming, about where are you at on volume? Doubled? Tripled?

I think you could increase your oven spring substantially with a thinner stretch, especially on the rim.  The thicker the dough, the more water you have in one place, the slower it takes to boil and form dough expanding steam.




This was the best pie I have made to date. I cold fermented for 24 hrs. The dough didn't rise too much in the fridge. Maybe just shy of 50% rise. It streched easily. I think it was less crispy because I used a higher hydration, but I did use the broiler method you described earlier, and I had to rim the cornice a little bit. I made another dough ball today for more experimenting tomorow or Saturday.


Oh it cooked in a 550 oven in about 4 minutes, with the broiler on the entire time. I think I might give the upper oven another shot with the broiler method. I will share the results. Thanks again.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 03:39:19 PM by jever4321 »
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2010, 03:57:37 PM »
A personal record, huh? Gotta love it!  :)

One of the benefits of using high gluten bromated flour is that it can expand to fairly extreme volumes without collapsing. 2x and 3x volume are pretty comfortable parameters. If cold fermentation doesn't give you much expansion, try letting it warm up for a bit longer before opening. If, say, you leave the dough out for an hour, try two hours. As the yeast warms up, it will start pumping out CO2 in large quantities. I would also considering increasing the yeast slightly on future doughs so that the dough hits a 2x to 2.5x mark coming out of the fridge on the day you want to use it.

One of the tricky parts to using the broiler with your oven temp maxed out is that the oven will cycle off during the bake.  I've been playing around with ways around this.  If I prop open the door, I can keep the broiler on, but I get uneven baking on the pie.  Lately, I've been preheating the stone to 550 and then turning the oven off for a few minutes before baking.  This lets the overall temp drop a bit and gives me more broiler time.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:01:05 PM by scott123 »

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2010, 08:14:26 PM »
This is the yeast I have been using. Is this commonly used? I'm not getting the kind of rise even close to 2x, and it's kind of hard to imagine that much rise. Doesn't it shrink back to the original size when forming the shell?

In the dough I made today I used a new jar of ADY. I'm curious how it will work. I was getting tired of throwing out half a packet of yeast every time I wanted to make a pie. ;)
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2010, 10:15:43 PM »
Jay, I think everyone has gone through a packet yeast phase. I used to spend a lot of time worrying about expiration dates, storage, viability and proofing, and, now that I look back, I probably worried way too much about it.  That being said, using jarred yeast, and having relative consistency for what ends up being about 140 pies, makes me giddy. I think you will be far happier using jarred yeast.

I've had high gluten bromated flours go to 5x on me.  If you take a bromated flour 60ish hydration dough, one that hasn't been kneaded too much, and leave it at room temp for long enough, as long as you have a few live yeast cells, it will double and triple eventually.  It might start to collapse around the 4x mark, but that's not the end of the world.

Dough does deflate quite a bit when forming the skin, but if you handle the dough relatively gently and don't press down/deflate the rim, you can end up with an airy rim going into the oven- a rim that will expand even more with oven spring and become super airy.


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2010, 11:05:44 PM »
Gordon Food Service, perfect!!!

They have a handful of high gluten flours, but one of the more popular brands, Primo Gusto, is both a bargain and comes highly recommended. It should be less $17 for a 50 lb. bag.

50 lbs is a lot of flour to store, but, if you want the best pizza, it's the only way to go.

1 1/2" looks great. The oven setup looks like  winner.

primo gusto 50/50 blend for cheese is VERY good and is about $37 per 20lb case.



also i find that redstar is one of the better tasting more reliable yeasts.  fleishmans often tastes very rank and has mediocre performance consistency.

sams club has 1lb (16oz) jars of yeast for 4.31 last time i was there.  cheaper than 4oz jar at the supermarket (some charge 12-13 dollars for 4oz!)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:07:41 PM by bbp c0mpl3x »
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Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2010, 07:31:34 AM »
I did see the Primo Gusto blend in the fridge at GFS and almost bought it because it resembled Grande in the way it was shredded / cubed. I think I will try it next time I buy cheese.

I had an idea to use a serving round instead of a screen to start my pie. I figured maybe 2 minutes, then remove it and put the pizza on the stone. I thought it might help the top cook, and protect the bottom a bit from burning while the crust sets up. It will also be easier to handle / launch.  Iím a little concerned about it sticking to the serving round though. In one of my first failures, I had a pie stick to a screen like it was welded there. I had to fold the screen up, with the pizza on it and throw it all away, which was pretty disappointing because it actually looked like my first edible pizza. Needless to say, that was the fist and only time I used anything between the dough and the stone.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 07:42:50 AM by jever4321 »
-Jay

Offline sear

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2010, 10:28:53 AM »
i have yet to touch any type of commercial yeast after switching to the san francisco sour dough starter  8)

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2010, 11:08:15 AM »
I did see the Primo Gusto blend in the fridge at GFS and almost bought it because it resembled Grande in the way it was shredded / cubed. I think I will try it next time I buy cheese.

I had an idea to use a serving round instead of a screen to start my pie. I figured maybe 2 minutes, then remove it and put the pizza on the stone. I thought it might help the top cook, and protect the bottom a bit from burning while the crust sets up. It will also be easier to handle / launch.  Iím a little concerned about it sticking to the serving round though. In one of my first failures, I had a pie stick to a screen like it was welded there. I had to fold the screen up, with the pizza on it and throw it all away, which was pretty disappointing because it actually looked like my first edible pizza. Needless to say, that was the fist and only time I used anything between the dough and the stone.


not enough anti-stick to the pizza whether it be flour cornmeal or oil is the problem.  or your dough was too warm?
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2010, 03:02:09 PM »
I had an idea to use a serving round instead of a screen to start my pie. I figured maybe 2 minutes, then remove it and put the pizza on the stone. I thought it might help the top cook, and protect the bottom a bit from burning while the crust sets up. It will also be easier to handle / launch.

Jay, if at all possible, I would recommend avoiding putting anything between the stone and the dough.  A screen will give you air pockets, which, to a small extent, will insulate the dough and give you less spring.  A serving round will invariably warp, causing it to contact the stone in some areas, but not others and give you a very uneven bake.

If the bottom is cooking quickly, then, rather than slowing the bottom down, my suggestion would be to speed the top up. How far is the stone from the broiler? Perhaps you can go up a shelf.  Also, I know you've been turning the broiler on- does your oven allow convection with broiling? I would give that a shot- and, as I said before, make sure your broiler is kicking in/glowing red during the bake.  If the broiler is glowing red, you should get more than enough color in 3 minutes.


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2010, 03:40:43 PM »
Thanks again Scott. I have a doughball ready to go, but I think I will have to wait for Sat. to make another pie. I have decided to give the upper oven another try, using your broiler method. I have only 2-1/2 inches from the top of the stone to the element, so things are a bit cramped. I think the stone gets hotter in the top as it is right on the element, and there is less air space on the sides so the heat is trapped form the thermostat a bit. I will also take your advise about not using a screen or serving round. Thanks for your perspective. I'll post the results as I have them.
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2010, 04:49:30 PM »
That's right, we're back to the 3/8" clearance again. Take lots of temperature measurements  :)

2 1/2" is pretty cozy.  That's Nearlypolitan territory.  As long as your broiler kicks in, you're going to get a lot of top coloring very quickly.  Here's two suggestions:

1. Try to minimize having the broiler on without a pizza in place, as the proximity to the stone will really drive the stone temp up. With the flour you're using, you don't want to drive the hearth temp up too high and take the bake time down below the 3 minute mark.

2. Keep on using the broiler at the beginning of the bake- you want intense hot and bottom heat at the start to get the most oven spring. Because the broiler is so close, I'd probably only turn it on for about a minute.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 04:56:51 PM by scott123 »

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2010, 11:48:58 PM »
Well, I streched a perfect 18" circle on Sat. flopped it on the peel, sauced it, cheesed it perfectly. When I went to launch it, the back side was stuck to the peel and I wound up making a football shaped pie. It got so thin on 1/3 that it sort of felt like the pie cracked. Needless to say I have been rather discouraged.

I think I am going to try the screen technique, as I still have a healthy anxiety whenever I launch an 18 incher. I have decided to try parchment paper on the screen and pre-bake the crust with sauce only for 3-4 minutes. then I will remove the screen and parchment, add the cheese and put the pie directly on the stone. This seems like kind of a P.I.T.A. but it might alleviate my launching anxiety, and eventual frustration. Hopefully it is a temporary crutch.
-Jay


scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2010, 12:21:06 PM »
Jay, true NY style pizza is made with a peel.  A screen will adversely effect oven spring and parbaking will ruin the way the cheese melts. If you want to do justice to the style, avoid both.

18" skins are hard to launch.  Really hard.  They make me nervous, and, for the most part, I feel very confident working with a peel.  I would stick to 16" pies until working with a peel is second nature.

Dusting the peel more liberally with flour helps. If you use a ton of flour and spread it nice and evenly, the dough will never stick.  Also, sanding the peel with course sandpaper helps creates small pits for the flour to the grab onto.

Peel skills don't sprout up overnight.  You just have to keep at it.  Practicing with an extra dough ball helps as well. Make the dough ball, top it with a couple pounds of dry beans and then practice launching it on the counter, sliding it back onto the peel, launching it again- repeating 50 or so times.  Launch it onto the counter over and over and over again. Put a piece of tape on the counter so you have a spot to aim for.

A couple training sessions such as this and your launching anxiety will be a thing of the past.

Edit:  And a 2.5" vertical opening makes launching more difficult as well.  I would go down a shelf if you can.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 12:25:38 PM by scott123 »

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2010, 12:59:26 PM »
You're right about being confident with the peel. I made one out of 3/4 pine that could house a 18" pie, and it's WAY heavier than my little 12" that I bought that was made out of 1/2' pine. So I think that is compounding my problems. I made a pie today using same day dough with the screen and parchment paper and it turned out ok. I'll post the pics. below. You're definately right about downsizing t 16" max size if I continue to launch on the stone. I have sanded my peel wit 220 grit sandpaper using an orbital sander and that seems to make it as smooth as glass. My last disaster just snagged a little bit, and the momentum of that large pie did the rest.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2010, 01:00:52 PM »
pics.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2010, 01:01:46 PM »
More.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2010, 01:33:02 PM »
Another question. Have you ever seen the two peel technique? I saw it on youtube and thought about giving it a shot. I know I'm not going to be a great pizza maker over night, but sometimes it seems like everyone else can do a great job, and i'll never get to that level... Im Italian... Shouldn't it just come naturally... :)
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2010, 01:38:12 PM »
Not bad, Jay, not bad at all.  Can you see the denser crumb/slight loss in spring, though?

Although it may seem a bit counter-intuitive, you really don't want a 'glass-like' peel.  With some roughness, the flour while catch and create a surface of it's own.

I haven't heard of the two peel technique.


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2010, 09:35:13 PM »

Watch at about 2:20 they use two peels and push the pie into the oven. Seems like it could have more control. I think I'm over complicating things. :-\
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 09:36:48 PM by jever4321 »
-Jay

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2010, 10:37:40 PM »
I know I'm not going to be a great pizza maker over night, but sometimes it seems like everyone else can do a great job, and i'll never get to that level.

This is how I feel sometimes too.   :(  I've been working on getting that great NP look but no luck. :(