Author Topic: New Soapstone  (Read 7041 times)

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Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2010, 09:12:54 PM »
Not bad, Jay, not bad at all.  Can you see the denser crumb/slight loss in spring, though?

Although it may seem a bit counter-intuitive, you really don't want a 'glass-like' peel.  With some roughness, the flour while catch and create a surface of it's own.

I haven't heard of the two peel technique.


I mae two pies tonight, one using the screen technique, and one I launched directly onto the stone. To say the difference was night and day would be an understatement. The screen pie was flat an tough, and the one that went directly on the stone was puffy, light & crispy and awesome. I'll post some pics after I download them. I think I might pitch the screens, buy an aluminum peel and down size to 16" pies per your recommendations.
-Jay


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2010, 09:17:52 PM »
Cheese pizza was on the screen. Anchovy pie was directly on the stone.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 09:22:42 PM by jever4321 »
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2010, 09:21:53 PM »
More
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2010, 10:41:51 PM »
Jay, that is a pretty dramatic difference. When you mentioned a screen, I was expecting one of those wire-y diamond pattern aluminum jobs.  I think the conductivity issue might be compounded even further with a baking pan of that thickness. I wouldn't necessarily throw the pan out, but I think you're on the right track by avoiding an intermediary.

You don't want to pay this price, but this is peel you want:

http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_106935

It's well built, solid, has a beautiful taper, great balance and comes to a nice sharp edge. If I get melted cheese on it, I give it a coarse sanding and it's back to new.

If you want a metal peel, go for it, but the general rule of thumb is wood for launching and metal for retrieving.

I promise you, with this peel and some practice, your launching issues will be over.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 10:46:02 PM by scott123 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2010, 10:54:38 PM »
You don't want to pay this price, but this is peel you want:

http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_106935

It's well built, solid, has a beautiful taper, great balance and comes to a nice sharp edge. If I get melted cheese on it, I give it a coarse sanding and it's back to new.

Jay,

If you decide to go with the peel that scott123 recommends, or one similar to it, you will want to be sure that you have enough space in front of your oven to use the peel. I once made a similar suggestion to a member and he said that he lived in an apartment with a small kitchen and that there wasn't enough room for him to use the peel. There are 18" peels with shorter handles but the handle can't be so short that it is hard to get a good balance and control of the peel during the loading operation.

Peter


scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2010, 11:04:45 PM »
Good point, Peter.  I guess, in theory, you could cut the handle, but that would probably make it unwieldy.  The beauty of the peel is that you can get an elbow on top of the peel for better balance/weight distribution.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2010, 08:30:01 AM »
Sorry, my picture was a little deceiving. I did use a wire type of screen, then when they come out of the oven, I put them on the perforated serving tray to cool for a couple of minutes, then to a regular serving tray to cut and serve.

I'm guessing that people don't use aluminum peels to launch because of the aluminum conducting heat too quickly? Would that make the pizza stick to the peel?
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2010, 08:57:35 AM »
Oh, okay, so it was wire.  Hmmm... I thought you'd lose some oven spring with the wire, but that's quite a bit.

Re; aluminum, it's not a conductivity issue, it's just that metal seems less slippery than wood.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2010, 10:24:05 PM »
I bought the wooden peel you guys suggested, and an aluminum one as well. The both worked out great. Here are some  pictures of tonights pies.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 10:29:39 PM by jever4321 »
-Jay


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2010, 10:25:13 PM »
More.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2010, 10:28:58 PM »
Last.
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2010, 11:05:14 PM »
Nice pies, Jay.

Bake time? Pre-heat temp?

I'm not sure what direction you want to go, but if you're looking for more oven spring, I'd suggest a lower thickness factor and increasing the hydration.  I think you're definitely ready for at least 65% hydration, maybe even higher.  It will make it a little harder to stretch and launch, though, so make sure you dust the peel very liberally with flour.

What's your current dough ball weight and pizza size?

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2010, 12:02:35 AM »
Nice pies, Jay.

Bake time? Pre-heat temp?

I'm not sure what direction you want to go, but if you're looking for more oven spring, I'd suggest a lower thickness factor and increasing the hydration.  I think you're definitely ready for at least 65% hydration, maybe even higher.  It will make it a little harder to stretch and launch, though, so make sure you dust the peel very liberally with flour.

What's your current dough ball weight and pizza size?
Thanks Scott, Hereís the dough I used this time. I bumped the ADY and sugar to try and get more browning and rise. By and large they were pretty tasty. I preheated to 550 in the upper oven about 45 minutes and hit the broiler for 1-1/2 minutes after launch, then went back to bake.  The stone temp was around 520 when I launched. The Mozzarella (Whole Foods whole milk mozz.) held up better, so I was able to get the cornice a little further along. Bake time was around 4-1/2 minutes. 16" Pies.


Flour (100%):    343.24 g  |  12.11 oz | 0.76 lbs
Water (63%):    216.24 g  |  7.63 oz | 0.48 lbs
*ADY (.40%):       1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    5.15 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (1%):    3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
*Sugar (1%):    3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Total (166.9%):    572.86 g | 20.21 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1005

ē   I bumped ADY to 2g
ē   I bumped sugar to 4g

Iím not sure I have the ability to stretch the dough any thinner. It always seems to turn out the same no matter what I do??
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 12:08:36 AM by jever4321 »
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2010, 06:56:47 AM »
Jay, for the longest time, I would do a knuckle stretch and get the exact same bowl shape every time and feel like that was all I could do, but, eventually, I found ways to get thinner, more even opens. I took a few minutes and looked around for good dough stretching videos, and, as far as youtube is concerned, there's not too many- at least not for the relatively slack/extensible high hydration minimal kneaded doughs that I make and recommend. I can't throw my dough nor can I do a great deal of knuckle stretching with it. This is sort of how I approach it:



There's a few things that I do a little differently.

1. When I'm forming the 1/4" rim with my fingertips, I leave a small mound of dough in the center of the skin.  I'm not 100% certain that this does anything for me, but my doughs have a strong tendency to stretch too thinly in the middle so I do this to try and counteract it.

2. I do pop any large bubbles in the rim because I don't like the uneven way in which they bake.  I do not pop them violently, though.  Slapping activates gluten/creates toughness (as well as pops smaller bubbles).  I just gently pinch any large bubble that I come across.

3. I may incorporate it eventually, but, right now, the open (like a clock)/turn technique doesn't feel comfortable to me.  I use pretty wide dough containers (8"), so, by the time I form the 1/4" rim and the mound in the center, It's wide enough to knuckle stretch. As I said before I don't knuckle stretch for long- I do my best to stretch the area closest to the rim, but no matter what I do, the center gets thin.  Once the center starts getting thin, I return the dough to the bench, and, for the rest of the form, the dough stays on the bench.

4. The last thing I do, Gemignani doesn't do.  The center of my crust is the thickness I want, so, at this point, the only thing I want to stretch is the outer circumference- the area just next to the rim. Tom Lehmann, in this video here, does sort of what I do:



3:34 to 3:49. The difference is that if I lift the dough as high as he does, the center will stretch a little more so I pull the edge apart with the skin mostly on the bench, moving my hands around the stationery skin rather than moving the skin or lifting it. I'll also do these edge pulls on the peel if I feel like I need a little more size.

I know I've seen other people do my last edge pulling step in videos, but I think they've been part of private collections that members have posted here.  If anyone here has a link, that would be great.

I think that using these techniques, you should be able to get a more even, thinner skin- with less dough.  .1 thickness factor, for NY style, is way too thick. Once you've got a better grasp of stretching techniques, I'd see how .075" works for you. A thinner skin (with a smaller rim) along with a higher hydration should give you much better oven spring and help combat that slight amount of breadiness that you're encountering.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:26:21 AM by scott123 »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2010, 10:20:22 AM »
the center will stretch itself as you stretch the outer.  have you tried slapping the dough? 
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2010, 09:22:08 PM »
Thanks guys for the responses. I tried the slapping thing, but I'm a little bit spastic and the dough was flopping and folding so I stopped. I usually go to the knuckle technique too soon, which seems to force the dough to the outside casing my large rim pies. I am going to make 2-3 pies on Thursday night so I will try these suggestions and will post the results. Thanks again.
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2010, 01:53:40 AM »
Jay, I don't think bbp c0mpl3x is referring to the Neapolitan slapping technique.  You wouldn't want to use that on a NY pie.  If I'm hearing him correctly, he's talking about slapping the dough in place- which is what I do.  After I press out my rim and form my slight center mound, I slap the mound.  You can slap it pretty hard without actually pressing it down. This helps develop gluten in the center so when you do the knuckle stretch, the center is slightly less extensible and has less tendency to thin out.

Btw, I found the video from one of our members that shows a technique that's similar to mine.  I present to you, Terry Deane!



Do you see how he circles the dough with his hands, stretching the outer circumference of the skin?  He does it both on the bench and on the peel.

I think Gemignani's open/turn technique is probably faster for stretching the area just next to the rim, but, until I'm more comfortable with it, this is how I treat that area.


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2010, 04:35:26 AM »
Jay, I don't think bbp c0mpl3x is referring to the Neapolitan slapping technique.  You wouldn't want to use that on a NY pie.  If I'm hearing him correctly, he's talking about slapping the dough in place- which is what I do.  After I press out my rim and form my slight center mound, I slap the mound.  You can slap it pretty hard without actually pressing it down. This helps develop gluten in the center so when you do the knuckle stretch, the center is slightly less extensible and has less tendency to thin out.

Btw, I found the video from one of our members that shows a technique that's similar to mine.  I present to you, Terry Deane!



Do you see how he circles the dough with his hands, stretching the outer circumference of the skin?  He does it both on the bench and on the peel.

I think Gemignani's open/turn technique is probably faster for stretching the area just next to the rim, but, until I'm more comfortable with it, this is how I treat that area.



the intro shows slapping.  this is what i mean.
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2010, 06:13:13 AM »


the intro shows slapping.  this is what i mean.

Oh, no, that's not the slapping that I do.  With the slackness of my dough, that kind of back and forth would mess up the shape, plus, even if I could keep it round, it's a little too much activity for my rim.  I like to treat my rim as gently as possible to avoid toughness.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2010, 12:10:29 PM »
Ok. I just made 3 dough balls using this formula.

16Ē NY Pizza Dough 68% Hydration
Flour (100%):    329.8 g  |  11.63 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (68%):    224.26 g  |  7.91 oz | 0.49 lbs
ADY (.7%):    2.31 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Salt (2%):    6.6 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Oil (1%):    3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    6.6 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.65 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (173.7%):   572.86 g | 20.21 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1005

Iím pretty nervous as this is the stickiest dough Iíve ever worked with. I barely used any bench flour as I have been reading its affecting total dough hydration. I plan on baking them up tomorrow. Iíll post the results when finished.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2010, 12:14:01 PM »
Dough.
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »
Jay, I probably should have conveyed myself better, but my suggestion to increase the hydration was contingent on a decreased thickness factor as well  :( Sorry.  Unless the hydration is below a flour's absorption value, whenever you add water, you should always combine it with something else- either more heat or less dough. You could try increasing the heat a bit, but I think you're pretty much where you want to be in the heat department. 

Oven spring is all about steam. Thick wet doughs have too much water in one place, which, in turn, slows down steam generation, which, in turn, decreases oven spring. I don't think this next batch will be that noticeably inferior from previous attempts, but, at .1 thickness and 68% hydration, you won't be seeing an improvement.

Until you can get down to an authentic NY .075ish thickness factor, you'll never really witness the oven spring magic that soapstone and bromated flour bring to the table.

That's the bad news.  The good news is that you've achieved a cottage cheese-y appearance indicative of the kind of minimal kneading that works well with cold ferments.

As far as the bench flour goes... don't believe the hype  :D It's perfectly normal for the hydration to drop as much as a percent or two with the bench flour used for kneading.  You don't want to smother the dough with flour, but, at the same time, you don't want to make your life more difficult by shortchanging the bench flour. 

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2010, 03:42:58 PM »
Hey Scott, I'm going to try to get my rims thinner on this batch of dough since I'm maxed out at 550 oven temp. Iím just going to take my time when I open the dough, stretching the rim like the videoís show, and weíll see what happens. Iím getting more confident that even if I mess up itís usually still edible, probably better than most my local pizza joints. Ohio is the black hole for pizza so the bar isnít very high.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 08:26:56 PM by jever4321 »
-Jay

scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2010, 01:48:11 AM »
Okay, Jay, sounds good.  If you can, though, try not to take the results of this next round and judge increased hydration too harshly.  Increased hydration is a good thing (up to a certain point), but it's got to be in the context of increased heat and/or decreased thickness factor.

One of these times, try a 66% hydration 460 g dough ball stretched to 16". It's going to be thin and it'll push your stretching skills to their limits, but I think you'll be pleased with the results.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2010, 07:07:38 PM »
Ok. I'm going to aim for the 460g dough ball next time, because with the 570g ball there's just too much excess dough to have a smaller rim on a 16" pie. Here are some pictures.
-Jay


 

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