Author Topic: New Soapstone  (Read 6030 times)

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Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2010, 10:28:58 PM »
Last.
-Jay


Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2010, 11:05:14 PM »
Nice pies, Jay.

Bake time? Pre-heat temp?

I'm not sure what direction you want to go, but if you're looking for more oven spring, I'd suggest a lower thickness factor and increasing the hydration.  I think you're definitely ready for at least 65% hydration, maybe even higher.  It will make it a little harder to stretch and launch, though, so make sure you dust the peel very liberally with flour.

What's your current dough ball weight and pizza size?

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2010, 12:02:35 AM »
Nice pies, Jay.

Bake time? Pre-heat temp?

I'm not sure what direction you want to go, but if you're looking for more oven spring, I'd suggest a lower thickness factor and increasing the hydration.  I think you're definitely ready for at least 65% hydration, maybe even higher.  It will make it a little harder to stretch and launch, though, so make sure you dust the peel very liberally with flour.

What's your current dough ball weight and pizza size?
Thanks Scott, Hereís the dough I used this time. I bumped the ADY and sugar to try and get more browning and rise. By and large they were pretty tasty. I preheated to 550 in the upper oven about 45 minutes and hit the broiler for 1-1/2 minutes after launch, then went back to bake.  The stone temp was around 520 when I launched. The Mozzarella (Whole Foods whole milk mozz.) held up better, so I was able to get the cornice a little further along. Bake time was around 4-1/2 minutes. 16" Pies.


Flour (100%):    343.24 g  |  12.11 oz | 0.76 lbs
Water (63%):    216.24 g  |  7.63 oz | 0.48 lbs
*ADY (.40%):       1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    5.15 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (1%):    3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
*Sugar (1%):    3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Total (166.9%):    572.86 g | 20.21 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1005

ē   I bumped ADY to 2g
ē   I bumped sugar to 4g

Iím not sure I have the ability to stretch the dough any thinner. It always seems to turn out the same no matter what I do??
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 12:08:36 AM by jever4321 »
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2010, 06:56:47 AM »
Jay, for the longest time, I would do a knuckle stretch and get the exact same bowl shape every time and feel like that was all I could do, but, eventually, I found ways to get thinner, more even opens. I took a few minutes and looked around for good dough stretching videos, and, as far as youtube is concerned, there's not too many- at least not for the relatively slack/extensible high hydration minimal kneaded doughs that I make and recommend. I can't throw my dough nor can I do a great deal of knuckle stretching with it. This is sort of how I approach it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOzvmQkZgs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOzvmQkZgs</a>


There's a few things that I do a little differently.

1. When I'm forming the 1/4" rim with my fingertips, I leave a small mound of dough in the center of the skin.  I'm not 100% certain that this does anything for me, but my doughs have a strong tendency to stretch too thinly in the middle so I do this to try and counteract it.

2. I do pop any large bubbles in the rim because I don't like the uneven way in which they bake.  I do not pop them violently, though.  Slapping activates gluten/creates toughness (as well as pops smaller bubbles).  I just gently pinch any large bubble that I come across.

3. I may incorporate it eventually, but, right now, the open (like a clock)/turn technique doesn't feel comfortable to me.  I use pretty wide dough containers (8"), so, by the time I form the 1/4" rim and the mound in the center, It's wide enough to knuckle stretch. As I said before I don't knuckle stretch for long- I do my best to stretch the area closest to the rim, but no matter what I do, the center gets thin.  Once the center starts getting thin, I return the dough to the bench, and, for the rest of the form, the dough stays on the bench.

4. The last thing I do, Gemignani doesn't do.  The center of my crust is the thickness I want, so, at this point, the only thing I want to stretch is the outer circumference- the area just next to the rim. Tom Lehmann, in this video here, does sort of what I do:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_IQWlV52M</a>


3:34 to 3:49. The difference is that if I lift the dough as high as he does, the center will stretch a little more so I pull the edge apart with the skin mostly on the bench, moving my hands around the stationery skin rather than moving the skin or lifting it. I'll also do these edge pulls on the peel if I feel like I need a little more size.

I know I've seen other people do my last edge pulling step in videos, but I think they've been part of private collections that members have posted here.  If anyone here has a link, that would be great.

I think that using these techniques, you should be able to get a more even, thinner skin- with less dough.  .1 thickness factor, for NY style, is way too thick. Once you've got a better grasp of stretching techniques, I'd see how .075" works for you. A thinner skin (with a smaller rim) along with a higher hydration should give you much better oven spring and help combat that slight amount of breadiness that you're encountering.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:26:21 AM by scott123 »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2010, 10:20:22 AM »
the center will stretch itself as you stretch the outer.  have you tried slapping the dough? 
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2010, 09:22:08 PM »
Thanks guys for the responses. I tried the slapping thing, but I'm a little bit spastic and the dough was flopping and folding so I stopped. I usually go to the knuckle technique too soon, which seems to force the dough to the outside casing my large rim pies. I am going to make 2-3 pies on Thursday night so I will try these suggestions and will post the results. Thanks again.
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2010, 01:53:40 AM »
Jay, I don't think bbp c0mpl3x is referring to the Neapolitan slapping technique.  You wouldn't want to use that on a NY pie.  If I'm hearing him correctly, he's talking about slapping the dough in place- which is what I do.  After I press out my rim and form my slight center mound, I slap the mound.  You can slap it pretty hard without actually pressing it down. This helps develop gluten in the center so when you do the knuckle stretch, the center is slightly less extensible and has less tendency to thin out.

Btw, I found the video from one of our members that shows a technique that's similar to mine.  I present to you, Terry Deane!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKWzut6hm8&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKWzut6hm8&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>


Do you see how he circles the dough with his hands, stretching the outer circumference of the skin?  He does it both on the bench and on the peel.

I think Gemignani's open/turn technique is probably faster for stretching the area just next to the rim, but, until I'm more comfortable with it, this is how I treat that area.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2010, 04:35:26 AM »
Jay, I don't think bbp c0mpl3x is referring to the Neapolitan slapping technique.  You wouldn't want to use that on a NY pie.  If I'm hearing him correctly, he's talking about slapping the dough in place- which is what I do.  After I press out my rim and form my slight center mound, I slap the mound.  You can slap it pretty hard without actually pressing it down. This helps develop gluten in the center so when you do the knuckle stretch, the center is slightly less extensible and has less tendency to thin out.

Btw, I found the video from one of our members that shows a technique that's similar to mine.  I present to you, Terry Deane!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKWzut6hm8&feature=player_embedded

Do you see how he circles the dough with his hands, stretching the outer circumference of the skin?  He does it both on the bench and on the peel.

I think Gemignani's open/turn technique is probably faster for stretching the area just next to the rim, but, until I'm more comfortable with it, this is how I treat that area.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZFzHvKY7vw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZFzHvKY7vw</a>


the intro shows slapping.  this is what i mean.
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2010, 06:13:13 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZFzHvKY7vw

the intro shows slapping.  this is what i mean.


Oh, no, that's not the slapping that I do.  With the slackness of my dough, that kind of back and forth would mess up the shape, plus, even if I could keep it round, it's a little too much activity for my rim.  I like to treat my rim as gently as possible to avoid toughness.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2010, 12:10:29 PM »
Ok. I just made 3 dough balls using this formula.

16Ē NY Pizza Dough 68% Hydration
Flour (100%):    329.8 g  |  11.63 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (68%):    224.26 g  |  7.91 oz | 0.49 lbs
ADY (.7%):    2.31 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Salt (2%):    6.6 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Oil (1%):    3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    6.6 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.65 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (173.7%):   572.86 g | 20.21 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1005

Iím pretty nervous as this is the stickiest dough Iíve ever worked with. I barely used any bench flour as I have been reading its affecting total dough hydration. I plan on baking them up tomorrow. Iíll post the results when finished.
-Jay


Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2010, 12:14:01 PM »
Dough.
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »
Jay, I probably should have conveyed myself better, but my suggestion to increase the hydration was contingent on a decreased thickness factor as well  :( Sorry.  Unless the hydration is below a flour's absorption value, whenever you add water, you should always combine it with something else- either more heat or less dough. You could try increasing the heat a bit, but I think you're pretty much where you want to be in the heat department. 

Oven spring is all about steam. Thick wet doughs have too much water in one place, which, in turn, slows down steam generation, which, in turn, decreases oven spring. I don't think this next batch will be that noticeably inferior from previous attempts, but, at .1 thickness and 68% hydration, you won't be seeing an improvement.

Until you can get down to an authentic NY .075ish thickness factor, you'll never really witness the oven spring magic that soapstone and bromated flour bring to the table.

That's the bad news.  The good news is that you've achieved a cottage cheese-y appearance indicative of the kind of minimal kneading that works well with cold ferments.

As far as the bench flour goes... don't believe the hype  :D It's perfectly normal for the hydration to drop as much as a percent or two with the bench flour used for kneading.  You don't want to smother the dough with flour, but, at the same time, you don't want to make your life more difficult by shortchanging the bench flour. 

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2010, 03:42:58 PM »
Hey Scott, I'm going to try to get my rims thinner on this batch of dough since I'm maxed out at 550 oven temp. Iím just going to take my time when I open the dough, stretching the rim like the videoís show, and weíll see what happens. Iím getting more confident that even if I mess up itís usually still edible, probably better than most my local pizza joints. Ohio is the black hole for pizza so the bar isnít very high.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 08:26:56 PM by jever4321 »
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2010, 01:48:11 AM »
Okay, Jay, sounds good.  If you can, though, try not to take the results of this next round and judge increased hydration too harshly.  Increased hydration is a good thing (up to a certain point), but it's got to be in the context of increased heat and/or decreased thickness factor.

One of these times, try a 66% hydration 460 g dough ball stretched to 16". It's going to be thin and it'll push your stretching skills to their limits, but I think you'll be pleased with the results.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2010, 07:07:38 PM »
Ok. I'm going to aim for the 460g dough ball next time, because with the 570g ball there's just too much excess dough to have a smaller rim on a 16" pie. Here are some pictures.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2010, 07:12:12 PM »
More.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2010, 07:13:07 PM »
.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2010, 07:15:47 PM »
.
-Jay

Offline scott123

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2010, 11:09:00 AM »
Jay, what are you feelings about these pies? Is it safe to assume that the additional water didn't create that noticeable of an improvement?  The pies look really good, but I think these days, really good is your baseline.

How did the stretch feel? Did the videos help at all?

I'm not sure 460 is exactly where you're going to end up, but I think that once you get rid of some of that dough, you're going to witness something pretty darn amazing.

Offline jever4321

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Re: New Soapstone
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2010, 11:17:19 PM »
Jay, what are you feelings about these pies? Is it safe to assume that the additional water didn't create that noticeable of an improvement?  The pies look really good, but I think these days, really good is your baseline.

How did the stretch feel? Did the videos help at all?

I'm not sure 460 is exactly where you're going to end up, but I think that once you get rid of some of that dough, you're going to witness something pretty darn amazing.
Thanks again for the kind words Scott. I really liked these pies. The dough was nice and light and browned well, and they tasted great, especially the pepperoni sausage and onion pie. They cooked in about 5 minutes and had some decent charring. I have found that the whole foods mozzarella holds up better during the bake. It just bubbles, and doesnít tend to burn too fast which allows me to get the crust crispier.  The videos have helped me. The next time I make dough I will try to back off the total weight to around 500g instead of the 570g for a 16" pie. I feel like I can get the cornice thinner with less dough. I will stretch the outer rim like the videos show. Again many thanks, Iím having fun and my pies are improving.
-Jay