Author Topic: White Wings flour tortilla mix  (Read 5555 times)

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Offline Jet_deck

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White Wings flour tortilla mix
« on: August 04, 2010, 12:03:28 PM »
In preparation for the Monthy Challenge for August, I would like to develop a dough using a "native" Texas flour.(White Wings flour tortilla mix)  I have listed the ingredients and I have emailed the manufacture about the protein content of the mix.  Does anyone see something in the ingredients that is going to kill the yeast or otherwise make it not work.  Thanks in advance.  :chef:


Enriched Bleached Flour (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean And/Or Cottonseed Oil, Corn Syrup Solids. Contains Less Than 2% Salt, Sodium Caseinate (A Milk Derivative), Sodium Bicarbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Mono & Diglycerides




If you are totally bored, these people have a great story to read:


http://www.pioneermills.com/ConsumerBrands/WhiteWings.aspx

If your asking yourself what flour tortillas have to do with BBQ, maybe its just a Texas thing. :-D
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 12:40:03 PM »
Jet_deck,

I don't see anything in the ingredients lists that suggests a problem when using yeast. In fact, the White Wings tortilla mix includes two components, sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and Sodium Aluminum Phosphate (commonly known as SALP), that are combined in a commercial product called WRISE that is used to make doughs for frozen pizzas (e.g., bake-to-rise) and take-and-bake pizzas. WRISE is a fat-encapsulated chemical leavening system that kicks in during baking in case someone does something that renders the yeast ineffective. If you are totally bored, you can read more on this subject at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8765.msg75964/topicseen.html#msg75964.

Sometimes chemical leavening systems like WRISE can impart an unpleasant flavor note in crusts so it is sometimes recommended that the dough contain sugar at a fairly high level (over 4%) to help mask that flavor. However, if you will be baking at very high oven temperatures, you might omit the added sugar. There is already a sugar form in the WW tortilla mix (corn syrup solids).

If you want to get a few ideas as to possible dough formulations and ingredient quantities (baker's percents), you can take a look at the recipes from the Wright Group at http://www.thewrightgroup.net/wrise.html.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 03:21:43 PM »
Is it the equivalent of Self Rising flour?

Or is the % of Baking powder and salt too low to notice a rise unless more yeast is added?

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »
Is it the equivalent of Self Rising flour?

Or is the % of Baking powder and salt too low to notice a rise unless more yeast is added?

I can't say that i have ever made a batch and let it "proof" for any length of time, but i would not expect to see anything happen (rise) if I did.


The lab just emailed me back and they say it is about 7% protein. I'm new here, so what do I do or where do I look?  Maybe a 50/50 with some bread flour?  Add gluten somehow?
Add yogurt (17% protein)?
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 05:30:57 PM »
Jet_deck,

Commercial self-rising flour contains salt and baking powder, which is a combination of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and an acid component, like cream of tartar. The WW tortilla flour mix is not the same as self-rising flour.

If the protein content of the WW tortilla flour mix is 7%, that places it at the low end of the protein range of cake flour. It is possible to supplement the WW mix with bread flour but to get the protein content of the mix high enough to make an acceptable pizza, the mix would have to be almost all bread flour. As an example, a 50/50 blend of the WW mix and, say, the King Arthur bread flour, which is higher in protein than most bread flours, would have a protein content of 9.85%. That would place the blend just below a standard grade H&R (hotel and restaurant) flour, which would be marginally usable to make pizza. You can also supplement the WW mix with vital wheat gluten (VWG) but you are not likely to get much crust coloration. In a typical home oven, the crust would be almost white, maybe a bit tan. You can also create a blend with the WW mix, bread flour and VWG, but by the time you create a blend with the protein characteristics that are most suitable to make pizza, I think that you will find that you will lose most of the "Texas" component of the exercise that you were looking to achieve. If you are willing to abandon that objective, then you might just as well go with the bread flour.

You can play around with different blend possibilities to achieve a desired overall protein content by using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

Peter

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2010, 08:59:17 AM »
Thanks everyone.  It may just be a glorified taco pizza when its done, but I will report my results.  Pete-zza, I will be cooking this on my 10 stone, so maybe the additional heat will help the color.  I just need to find some VWG
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2010, 03:14:30 PM »
In preparation for the Monthy Challenge for August, I would like to develop a dough using a "native" Texas flour.(White Wings flour tortilla mix) 


Can you not get plain White Wings Flour?

Mixing the tortilla mix per the directions might make a good crust. You might have to par-cook it first. Maybe just on the side you put the toppings on? I've made some pretty tasty pizzas on flour tortillas. It would be fun to try it with a big homemade tortilla the size of a pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10580.0.html

Craig
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2010, 03:50:46 PM »
Probably could, but I haven't done much with AP flour yet.  Your right, a giant 14" beef fajita quesadila would be pretty tasty.  It (the mix) caught my eye because it already contained oil, sugar and something made from milk. :)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 03:52:52 PM by Jet_deck »
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2010, 05:21:38 PM »
I am glad you posted this, as I have been eyeballing that WW tortilla flour too.  Let us know how it comes out.

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2010, 06:48:20 PM »
My understanding is the low protein content aids in rolling out the tortilla thin enough to fry rapidly. Best of luck, I think I would have been better off to go with a thicker Texas style tortilla than the thin Sonora. I would have asked from some of my Mexican friends for advice but none ever use anything but masa. Keep us posted.
Don


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2010, 11:36:50 AM »
I feel like the pilot of the Hindenburg being sent well wishes before takeoff.  :-D

I found two very interesting reads last night. 

Pizza Shark and his New York style http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736.0.html For me it wasn't the style that was interesting, it was his methods to get what he wanted.  Several "procedures" that I have not seen mentioned elsewhere in my short time here.

Steve and his Shakey's style from 2005 (Reply 3) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1311.0.html A 30 minute food processor cracker dough.

Maybe I can coax a somewhat cracker style crust from this low protein stuff, especially if I can get the manual dough sheeter running and get a few laminations in it.
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2010, 01:21:43 PM »
Here is what I am currently thinking, a 50/50 blend of the tortilla mix with high gluten flour.  Here is how I arrived at these bakers percent.  First, thin crust.  Second, I decided that the mix had taken care of its own oil, salt and the vast majority of its yeast potential.  But I would dictate the Hydration ratio.  For the High gluten flour, the oil will be in the form of shortning, I want 1/2 TBS for 130 g of High gluten flour (don't know how to represent this in the dough calculator). 65% hydration because of the high temp oven.  Yeast, I wanted 1% to jack this thing up and a little is extra for the tortilla mix flour, so half is .5% . Salt, I wanted 4% so half is 2%

I know the protein level isn't going to be very high, but, still maybe something edible. Do you see any glaring errors, or wrong assumptions that I made.  No, really just tell me.



Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
ADY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Total (167.5%):
260.55 g  |  9.19 oz | 0.57 lbs
169.35 g  |  5.97 oz | 0.37 lbs
1.3 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
436.41 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = 0.1


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Online Pete-zza

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2010, 01:48:22 PM »
Jet_deck,

What brand of high gluten flour do you plan to use, or are you really thinking of vital wheat gluten?

Are you planning on adding more fat (shortening) to the flour blend? Remember, also, that the WW tortilla mix does not use any yeast. So, the amount of yeast you use should be commensurate with the type and duration of the fermentation you plan to use.

In the dough calculating tool, you have to combine the two flours as Flour in the tool and do the apportionment manually.

Peter

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2010, 03:39:50 PM »
I was hoping to find KASL  at the super grocery.  The other product was Bob's red mill, VWG Flour.  I guess your saying that the VWG "flour" just describes the form (consistency) of the VWG and you cannot use it in place of bread flour or KASL in that quantity ?  I thought that the WRISE was the leavening in the mix, I guessed that they put enough WRISE in the mix to "take care of" the leavening ability of the 7% protein flour. ( I re-read your reply, you said it was heat activated.  So technically, there is no leavening in the tort. mix ?)  The mix already contains soybean and or cotton seed oil, so I wasn't going to add any extra shortening for that portion (1/2) of the flour. (But rethinking it now, there can't be that much in there because it doesn't come out of the box looking like the "cornmeal mix" that others report on their thin crust doughs.)

I'm all ears and learning, so please keep it coming.  Peter, how would you compare/ contrast the difference in the DKM thin (or Your thin)  -vs- the 30 minute Shaky's that Steve did?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 03:46:05 PM by Jet_deck »
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2010, 05:39:46 PM »
I just sent the wife (I shop for her constantly!) to the store to get some WW flour and all of the ingredients to make an enchilada sauce.  I have been marinading some skirt steak since yesterday with a dry rub, so I will try for a tortilla crust enchilada sauce fajita pizza for dinner tonight.  I also have a couple of 2 day old dough balls in case of dough-fail on the White Wings.  I am going to make the dough per package instructions and see what happens.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2010, 06:37:45 PM »
I was hoping to find KASL  at the super grocery.  The other product was Bob's red mill, VWG Flour.  I guess your saying that the VWG "flour" just describes the form (consistency) of the VWG and you cannot use it in place of bread flour or KASL in that quantity ?  I thought that the WRISE was the leavening in the mix, I guessed that they put enough WRISE in the mix to "take care of" the leavening ability of the 7% protein flour. ( I re-read your reply, you said it was heat activated.  So technically, there is no leavening in the tort. mix ?)  The mix already contains soybean and or cotton seed oil, so I wasn't going to add any extra shortening for that portion (1/2) of the flour. (But rethinking it now, there can't be that much in there because it doesn't come out of the box looking like the "cornmeal mix" that others report on their thin crust doughs.)

I'm all ears and learning, so please keep it coming.  Peter, how would you compare/ contrast the difference in the DKM thin (or Your thin)  -vs- the 30 minute Shaky's that Steve did?


Jet_deck,

KASL is almost never found at the retail level in supermarkets and the like. That is generally true of all high-gluten flours. That is why I wondered what brand you might have found and were planning to use. You could use bread flour, which is found in most supermarkets, to blend with the WW tortilla mix. That would boost the total protein content to around 10% for a 50/50 blend. For such a blend, you would perhaps not want to exceed a hydration of around 56-57%. You could also add some oil or shortening to boost the fat content if you want to retain the same general fat content of the WW flour.

As you will see from the description of vital wheat gluten at the forum's Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V, VWG is not the same as high-gluten flour. It cannot be used as a substitute for high-gluten flour. So a 50/50 blend with the WW tortilla mix would not work. That would also rule out a hydration of 65%, which would be far too much for a flour blend based mostly on a 7% protein flour. You could boost the protein content of a 50/50 WW tortilla/bread flour blend as mentioned above by using VWG. The 10% figure mentioned above would be similar to the protein content of a low grade all-purpose flour. You could boost the protein content another couple of percent using the VWG.

The WW tortilla mix has leavening capacity in that it includes the basic components of the product WRISE, which is a chemical leavening system. What we do not know is how much chemical leavening the WW tortilla mix uses other than it is less than 2%. I suspect that there is some rise in the tortilla dough but it may not be as much as you would get with a regular dough. It is also possible that the WW tortilla mix leavening system is not encapsulated so as to kick into action during baking/cooking. There are now quite a few products on the market that include ingredients such as used in WRISE. However, the WW tortilla mix does not contain yeast, which is an ingredient that can be used along with the chemical leavening system. I don't see any problem in your using 0.5% IDY in your case. However, to know whether that it is adequate in your case we would need to know what kind of fermentation you plan (room temperature or in the refrigerator) and for how long you plan to ferment the dough.

Since I have not tried Steve's Shakey's clone cracker-style pizza, I cannot compare it with DKM's or my thin cracker-style pizzas. However, my thin style had thinner crusts than DKM's.

Peter

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2010, 10:20:15 AM »
Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
ADY (.75%):
Salt (2%):
Total (159.75%):
273.19 g  |  9.64 oz | 0.6 lbs
155.72 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
2.05 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
5.46 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
436.41 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = 0.1

Ok for tonight I will do a 4 hr room temp rise, emergency/ same day dough if you will. 50/50 WW mix/ KABF. Added to the above will be 1 TBS shortning (crisco). I will use my POS mixer from college with the pigs tails (cork screw) dough hooks.  Ill proof the yeast, add the rest of the water(110*) to 75% of the flour in a pre heated mixing bowl, stir w/ a fork, let rest 10 min, add proofed yeast and salt to the sitting flour and water mix, hit it with the pigs tails for 5 min then start adding remaining flour.  Dump on the counter, form into a ball and transfer it to the microwave where I just boiled some water.  Maybe leave it there for the entire 3 to 4 hours.  Does that sound like a plan?  I might even get the wardens hair dryer and let it shoot hot air on the bowl as it mixes  >:D
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2010, 10:32:34 AM »
Jet_deck,

I say you have a plan  ;D. I assume you are joking but I wouldn't use your wife's hair dryer since that might dry out the dough and form a skin on it.

The last time I did anything that is as wacky as what you propose to do was messing around with a package of Jiffy pizza mix, as I described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4652.msg38349.html#msg38349. So, I will be interested in your results. Good luck.

Peter

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2010, 12:43:08 PM »
Here is the White Wings mix straight off the instructions on the bag (+25% more water) fermented for about an hour at room temp and cooked in the 550 degree kitchen oven. 

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: White Wings flour tortilla mix
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2010, 01:45:32 PM »
Did you like it?  Was it kinda heavy chewing or how would you describe it?  I think you should submit it for the Monthly challenge, looks very good, beef fajita?
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