Author Topic: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters  (Read 25081 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2010, 06:01:35 PM »
This is how my dough looks after it was bulk fermented in the proofing box and how it looks when formed into a dough ball.  The dough is softer than any dough I made before.  Now the dough ball is going into the proofing box again.

This is a link to the proofing box I am using to proof my dough. Matt and other members have helped me build this proofing box. Mattís instructions for wiring.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102110.html#msg102110

Finished proofing box working. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102195.html#msg102195

   If you are interested, stay tuned.  Who knows what is going to happen!    :-D               
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2010, 09:02:26 PM »
The bake is finished with my first try at a pie made with an Ischia Sour Dough Starter.  I used the dough formulation below and used the preferment calculating tool to figure out this formula.  I am not used to using this high of a hydration for dough in making a pizza.  The dough was sticky, but with a little bench flour and a little dusting it opened okay. The dressings used for this pie were fresh mozzarella that Steve (Ev) made for me awhile ago, (it was frozen) Lesí fresh tomato sauce and when the pie was finished baking, it was dressed with fresh basil.

I really enjoyed this pie. I decided to bake in my BBQ grill set-up (with a little different set-up), even though it was lightly sprinkling, because I thought that was probably where I could get the highest temperatures for this type of pie. 

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):            225.89 g  |  7.97 oz | 0.5 lbs
Water (66%):         149.09 g  |  5.26 oz | 0.33 lbs
Salt (2.00%):                 4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
ADY (0.25%):                 0.56 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Total (168.25%):    380.06 g | 13.41 oz | 0.84 lbs | TF = 0.101

Preferment:
Flour:               3.13 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs
Water:               2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs
Total:                5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:             222.76 g | 7.86 oz | 0.49 lbs
Water:                 147 g | 5.19 oz | 0.32 lbs
Salt:                        4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
ADY:                  0.56 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Preferment:        5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs
Total:             380.06 g | 13.41 oz | 0.84 lbs  | TF = 0.101

 
Finally, after all this time making pizzas, I finally made a sourdough pie with an Ischia starter.  ;D       



Norma
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 09:08:15 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2010, 09:04:29 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2010, 09:05:48 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2010, 09:06:43 PM »
last of pictures

Norma
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Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2010, 09:45:34 PM »
How did the crust taste?  Did you notice any difference?

Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2010, 09:50:28 PM »
How did the crust taste?  Did you notice any difference?

PizzaPolice,

The taste of the crust was the best I have tasted to this date. It was so moist inside and the slight crunch was good.  I should have left this dough proof slower or put it into the fridge to cold ferment for longer, but I wanted to try out the starter.

Norma
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Offline s00da

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2010, 10:55:49 AM »
Norma, it seems you haven't found any sour flavors in the crust. Have you?

Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2010, 11:41:05 AM »
Norma, it seems you haven't found any sour flavors in the crust. Have you?

s00da,

No, I didnít have any sourdough flavor when using this starter.  Maybe the starter hasnít been feed enough or I didnít let this dough slow ferment enough without using the ADY.  These are all things I will have to try out in the future to see what I can achieve.  I would like to just try the starters mixed with other ingredients for a long room ferment and see what happens.  There are just too many ideas to try out at one time, when using starters.  I would like to be able to make pizzas the ďold world wayĒ, when pizzas first started and see how the pies would then taste.  I like to mix by hand and also would like to be able to see what can happen with using these starters.  I have a lot to learn about starters.

Do you like a sourdough flavor in your crusts?  Do you still use starters in your dough?  I want to thank you for helping me with getting these starters activated.  I appreciate your help.  :)

Norma
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Offline s00da

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2010, 08:50:41 AM »
Norma,

I still do make my Neapolitan pies using the Ischia and it does give them a more complex flavor but I cannot say that they are sour. Some of the ppl who had my pies say that they have a hint of sourness but I couldn't detect myself.

Trying to produce more sour in my dough had me work on baguettes at the same time so I can better detect flavors. You can see this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9319.0.html as I found that of course the more I fermented the dough, the more sour it got but I guess it was over-fermenting.

I switched to a cheaper local flour as the experiments were getting kind of expensive  ;D and I kept having failures with the following recipe:

65% hydration fermented for 24 hours at 75 F:

395g flour
255g water
10g ischia at 100% hydration
8g salt

it always gave a lightly colored baguettes with little oven spring but it had some sourness. They were very leathery.

After many adjustments it became:

63% hydration fermented for 22 hours at 61 F and proofed for 2 hours at 75 F:

442g flour
276g water
22g ischia at 108% hydration
8.37g salt

My baguettes now are as you see in the images and they are consistent any day I make them. Crisp, soft crumb, lots of sugars released from the starch and they smell amazing. Of course, no sourness  ;D The major difference between the two recipes is probably the lesser fermentation. The current recipe expands to double while the older one expanded to much more.

I think that in the current recipe, I am most likely treating the dough as a cold fermented dough with ADY/IDY as more sugars are becoming available but the wild yeast is barely utilizing them to make a double expansion in 22 hours. Now the question remains...how can I make my baguettes taste sour without over-fermenting them and end up with my previously unwanted results?

I had some email exchanges with Ed from sourdo.com and this was his reply:

Some want it sour, some like it mild, but everyone praises the exquisite flavor, aroma and open crumb of San Francisco sourdough.  There are ways to achieve it all that never use any form of commercial yeast, dough flavors or “improvers”.  We call it authentic sourdough! So will you!!  

This is a fermentation process.  The longer it lasts the better the flavor and sourness.  The key players, the only players: wild yeasts and lactobacilli.  Wild yeast leaven best at lower temperatures 65o to 75o.  Lactobacilli produce the best flavor and sourness at 85o to 90oF.  If dough proofing is at the lower temperatures, leavening will be excellent, but flavor and sourness mild. If proofing is at higher temperatures, the bacteria will be more active, the flavor more sour, but the yeasts will be inhibited by the acidity and the leavening not quite as good. Getting the right flavor sourness and leavening can be a balancing act to proof at the right temperature and at the right time.

Doing it right requires 3 proofs. Don’t panic.  It takes far less than one hour of the baker’s time. The organisms do all the rest.  First, the “fully active” culture is proofed 6 to 12 hours.  Next, the dough is proofed 8 to 12 hours.  Third the loaves are formed and proofed 3 to 4 hours until ready to bake.  An easy schedule is to start the culture proof in the morning, proof it during the day; start the dough proof in the evening, and proof it overnight; then finish by doing the loaf proof as convenient the next morning.

Consistency is changed by regulating the amount of flour or water in the dough until an open crumb is achieved.  Increasing the amount of water in a recipe by 4 percent increments will improve the crumb with each added increment.  At the higher moistures machine kneading is desirable as the dough can be sticky and difficult to handle.

THE PROOFS:

The culture:  Producing a massive innoculum of the sourdough organisms is the sole purpose of this proof. When the “fully active” culture is proofed at room temperature between 65o and 70o for 6 to 12 hours the flavor and leavening will be excellent, the sourness mild.  If proofed at 85o to 90o the flavor and sourness will be excellent , the leavening not as good.  Proofing at 65-70o for the first 2-3 hours produces an excellent crop of wild yeast cells.  Follow this by proofing at 80o-85o for the next 6-10 hours which produces an equally good crop of lactobacilli resulting in good flavor, leavening and sourness.  But feeding and warming it an hour is simply not enough.   Ignore this at your peril!

The dough:  The culture and additional ingredients are mix/kneaded for a maximum of 25 minutes in a bread machine or other mixer or kneaded by hand. The dough is then proofed for 8 to 12 hours in the machine pan covered with a light plastic or in a bowl covered by a lid.  After that proof, a plastic spatula is used to ease the dough to a floured board where it rests for 20-30 minutes. It is then gently formed into a ball retaining the contained air bubbles as much as possible.

The loaves:  The ball is placed in a willow basket dusted heavily with rye flour or in any other suitable baking container.  It is proofed for 3 to 4 hours until ready for baking. The basket is turned over to transfer the loaf to a greased baking sheet dusted with white corn meal.

Baking:  The baking sheet with its loaf is placed in a cool oven, which is set for 375o, turned on and baked for 70 minutes.  Or the loaf can be transferred to a preheated stone and oven at 450o for 40 minutes.  (Steam can be supplied by placing boiling water in a pan below the loaf as desired.)

It is not necessary nor desirable to do all three proofs at the same temperature and the length of each should be varied to achieve the desired results.  

Here is a good basic recipe to test all of the above:  (in your kitchen).

1.0 cup culture, 3¼ cups (460 grams) unbleached all-purpose flour, 1.0 cup water, 1½ teaspoons salt.

I have baked this recipe over a dozen times with different temperatures and proofing times for each of the 3 proofs.  My favorite is proofing the culture at 80o, the overnight dough and the loaf at 68o.  This combination produces a phenomenal oven spring (we call it “ballooning”), excellent flavor and sourness with a nice open crumb.  Now it’s your turn!!  For a more sour sourdough do the Loaf Proof at 90o.  If that isn’t sufficiently sour, it’s your turn to experiment.


I believe that there is no escaping the fact that in order to get a more sour flavor, one needs to make the dough in stages as per Ed's recommendation.

So my next expirements will be around the following thoughts:

activate the starter
create part of the dough in poolish form as the flavoring agent
complete the final dough and ferment in colder temperature to release the sugars and delay their consumption
divide, form and bake

So welcome to the sourdough starter mystery Norma  :-D
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 08:52:54 AM by s00da »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2010, 04:46:30 PM »
Thanks for sharing the email S00da and great looking baguettes.

Chau

Online Matthew

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2010, 04:58:09 PM »
Great Post Saad & very nice looking baguettes.  Do you bake them with steam?  How do you find the baguette baking pans?  I am thinking of getting one.

Matt

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2010, 05:22:11 PM »
GREAT post and BAGUETTES !! i have the same baguette pan, i think its great !!!
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Offline s00da

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2010, 06:56:27 PM »
Thanks guys, I used the baguette pan only once and it's not bad but it doesn't shock the baguettes with that oomph you get from direct contact with a baking stone. Now I use the pan only to slide the baguettes onto the stone. It makes the process easy for a small electric oven. I use it in combination with parchment paper. Of course I need steam to get this oven spring in a temp. of 500 F. To create the steam, I use an aluminum pan at the bottom of the oven with a combination of spritzing the sides of the oven walls.

Any of you guys are Ischia users? can you let us what you think of your baked goods flavor in terms of complexity and sourness? and how you are achieving that.

Saad

Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2010, 07:12:29 PM »
Saad,

I appreciate you shared so much.  :)  Your pictures of your baguettes look simply delicious!  ;D All your experiments have paid off.  Best of luck in your next experiments with using part of the dough in a poolish form.  That would be too complicate for me to figure out.  Let us know how your experiments are going along those lines.

Thank you for giving your formula for baguettes.  I have this baguette pan, that I had bought awhile ago, in my shed. Picture below. Maybe I also can learn to make baguettes since you have given me all this help.  I really love baguettes, but had no idea about going about making them.
I can understand how the key player is lots of sugars released from the starch.  It interesting that your current recipe only expands to double, while your older one expanded much more. 

Did you ever use a Ph meter to test the acidity of your fermenting dough?  I have a decent Ph meter and have been wondering for awhile how I could use the meter to be able to find out when the dough is at its best.

Thank you for welcoming me into the mystery of the sour dough world.  ;D With your help, I have learned much.  Now to practice what you have shared.  I am anxious to have that amazing smell and complex taste.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2010, 07:55:13 AM »
I removed the starters from the refrigerator this morning and fed them all.  One of each kind I am feeding with "00" flour and the other kind of flour that I am using to fed the two different starters is KAAP.  I am wondering if anyone has tried to feed their starters with KASL to see what would happen with feeding the starters a high-gluten flour? 

I am feeding these starters today to make another attempt at a pizza, probably sometime tomorrow.  If anyone has any ideas or help, let me know.  Should I use the same formula without the ADY, or do you think I should change the formula?

Picture below of just fed starters.

Thanks,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2010, 11:34:29 AM »
After feeding my starters this morning, I donít think they are strong enough to use for a dough.  I am not sure of this, but am going to feed all of them expect the one on the right.  That one is going back into the refrigerator, because it does look stronger.  I am going to start feeding all of my starters with just KAAP.  I will see if my starters appear to bubble more and decide later if I am going to make a dough today or refrigerate the rest of the starters later today and take one out of the refrigerator tomorrow and feed again and then make the dough tomorrow.  I think I will try to feed them 50/50 with flour and water.

Picture below,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2010, 04:31:23 PM »
Well, I guess I am not going to make a dough today with these sour dough starters.   :-D  I have fed them and watched how they behaved.  They donít seem to be going far enough in being active, except the one.  That one is back in the refrigerator.  I did give them another feed, this time with KASL to see if that makes any difference in how they rise.  I am going to put them back into the refrigerator later today and start again tomorrow.  I am going to measure out one cup of each starter and use a fresh clean container and then feed them tomorrow morning.

Maybe I will be able to use one of these sour dough starters for a dough tomorrow.  Time will tell.  ::) They all smell good.

Pictures below

Fed all KAAP
How they rose and bubbled
Last feed, fed all KASL

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2010, 04:32:02 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma
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Online Matthew

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2010, 05:36:03 PM »
rest of pictures

Norma

Norma,
It's hard to tell, but by looking at the pictures your starter looks like it's overly acidic which would explain the lack of activity.  To rectify this you should do a single washing & proof & feed at room temperature until fully active.

Matt


 

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