Author Topic: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters  (Read 29501 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #125 on: August 21, 2010, 10:35:20 AM »
Matt,

I can understand more flavor will develop, but I am concerned about since you use ď00" flour and I used KASL flour in this sour dough, that ď00" flour seems to have a lower amylase enzyme activity with lower amount of starch damage.  My ambient room temperature arenít really cool this time of year.  I am worried there wonít be enough of residual sugar left and my dough might become unmanageable.  I also am only going to be baking in my home oven.  Just since I balled the bulk fermented dough it has risen to almost double in size.  I used 5% starter for my formula and will post the formula I used later today. I am not sure of the potency of my starter either, because I just activated them last week. My salt amounts I used arenít that high either so, they also wonít delay fermentation in my opinion.  I am just trying to understand sour dough and how it behaves.  I donít want to have to call 911 forum control, but might need to.  :-D

Thanks,  :)


Norma

Flour & salt are definitely key factors in action/reaction.  I have never used KASL because it's not available in Canada, but have used HG bread flour with similar properties.  The results were consistent with those using 00.  I find that 3% salt works very good under my conditions/climate which are the same as yours.  As you know, starters are very unpredictable & need to be trained to perform under your conditions.  Although my typical results are very consistent they are always different.

Matt


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #126 on: August 21, 2010, 10:36:47 AM »
S00da, I don't think we are.  We are trying to find/confirm a generalize conversion rate for starter and ADY/IDY so that members can do simple math and switch from one to the other.    

I found a usuable conversion for ADY to Starter (or vice versa) a while back and now trying to apply that to IDY vs Ischia starter.  I realize that starters can vary in leavening strength let alone the way it is fed and activated.  Maybe if we can find a usable conversion, then we can nail down a somewhat standardize method for caring/feeding/activating starters from the fridge to room temps.

Well at least that's what I'm doing.  I think Norma would like to make her Lehmann dough recipe using Starters instead of IDY as she had been previously. 

Chau
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 10:38:27 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #127 on: August 21, 2010, 10:42:04 AM »
S00da, I don't think we are.  We are trying to find/confirm a generalize conversion rate for starter and ADY/IDY so that members can do simple math and switch from one to the other.    

I found a usuable conversion for ADY to Starter (or vice versa) a while back and now trying to apply that to IDY vs Ischia starter.  I realize that starters can vary in leavening strength let alone the way it is fed and activated.  Maybe if we can find a usable conversion, then we can nail down a somewhat standardize method for caring/feeding/activating starters from the fridge to room temps.

Well at least that's what I'm doing.  I think Norma would like to make her Lehmann dough recipe using Starters instead of IDY as she had been previously. 

Chau

Sorry guys, I'm totally confused. ???

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #128 on: August 21, 2010, 10:57:43 AM »
Saad,

I only used ADY in the first formula I used, because I made the dough in one day. I am not using IDY or ADY in the formula I made yesterday.

Norma

Matt,

Do you have some kind of room or temperature control unit where you bulk ferment you dough and dough balls?  I only figured out a formula yesterday using the preferment dough calculating tool and donít know what my results will be.  I can understand that starters are very unpredictable and I will need to study how all this fits together.  I think what Chau is trying today with IDY is different from what I am trying, but he is using an Ischia starter in his experiment.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #129 on: August 21, 2010, 11:07:41 AM »
I will feed the starter again today and then measure out a cup to see what it weighs.  Where do I go to find out how much a cup would weigh in oz. or grams?

Norma,

I am not quite sure I understand your question, but if you are asking where I got the 9 ounce per cup conversion factor, it was in the Appendix to Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdughs. A cup of your starter culture might be more or less than that.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #130 on: August 21, 2010, 11:11:32 AM »
Matt,

Do you have some kind of room or temperature control unit where you bulk ferment you dough and dough balls?  I only figured out a formula yesterday using the preferment dough calculating tool and donít know what my results will be.  I can understand that starters are very unpredictable and I will need to study how all this fits together.  I think what Chau is trying today with IDY is different from what I am trying, but he is using an Ischia starter in his experiment.

Norma

My starter is activated in the MR148, & the finished dough is proofed in my homemade proofing box under controlled temperatures & humidity.  I proof the dough balls in a commercial dough tray in my indoor oven controlling the temperature by cycling the light in the oven on & off.

Matt

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #131 on: August 21, 2010, 11:30:44 AM »
Norma,

I am not quite sure I understand your question, but if you are asking where I got the 9 ounce per cup conversion factor, it was in the Appendix to Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdughs. A cup of your starter culture might be more or less than that.

Peter

Peter,

What I meant, was should I just weigh out a cup of starter before I feed it and then feed it and next weigh how much activated starter weighs at one cup?  Sorry for the confusion.

Norma
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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #132 on: August 21, 2010, 11:34:47 AM »
My starter is activated in the MR148, & the finished dough is proofed in my homemade proofing box under controlled temperatures & humidity.  I proof the dough balls in a commercial dough tray in my indoor oven controlling the temperature by cycling the light in the oven on & off.

Matt

Matt,

I can understand since you do have already figured out methods using controlled temperature and humidity for proofing your bulk dough, this might be different in my situation, in just letting the bulk dough ferment at my irregular ambient room temperatures. 

Thanks for explaining that to me and also for your continued help.  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #133 on: August 21, 2010, 11:39:11 AM »
What I meant, was should I just weigh out a cup of starter before I feed it and then feed it and next weigh how much activated starter weighs at one cup?  Sorry for the confusion.

Norma,

No problem. What I wanted to see is how much one cup of your natural Ischia poolish weighs at the point where you are about to use it to make the dough. That might not happen until you make your next dough batch. So there is no urgency. I just wanted to test the number that Ed Wood uses.

Peter


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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #134 on: August 21, 2010, 11:56:01 AM »
Norma,

No problem. What I wanted to see is how much one cup of your natural Ischia poolish weighs at the point where you are about to use it to make the dough. That might not happen until you make your next dough batch. So there is no urgency. I just wanted to test the number that Ed Wood uses.

Peter

Peter,

I already have the Ischia starter out of the refrigerator.  I just wanted to make sure how you wanted me to measure it. 

Will let you know what kind of results in weights I got with using one cup (229.92 grams) adding flour and water by weight and then weighing the active Ischia starter at 229.92 grams.  My scale isn't that accurate, but will weigh at rounded number of 230 grams for 1 cup.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #135 on: August 21, 2010, 12:23:56 PM »
well it looks like when I use my starter this morning it wasn't fully active.  Right now the IDY ball is growing at a faster rate.  I'm not sure it willl equalize over the next 4-5 hours.

Norma are you using a measuring cup for dry ingredients or for liquids?  Just curious as I have an active starter now and can measure out a cup to compare.

Chau

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #136 on: August 21, 2010, 12:58:19 PM »
well it looks like when I use my starter this morning it wasn't fully active.  Right now the IDY ball is growing at a faster rate.  I'm not sure it willl equalize over the next 4-5 hours.

Norma are you using a measuring cup for dry ingredients or for liquids?  Just curious as I have an active starter now and can measure out a cup to compare.

Chau

Chau,

LOL, what do you mean your starter wasn't fully active.  Wonder what is going to happen to that dough ball.   ::)  I am not sure, but probably the commercial yeast will take over. 

Here is what I just did.  It might give you a laugh.  :-D  If you want to measure your active starter out, maybe we will get the same weighs.  I am not sure of that.

I hope I got this right this time.  I usually weigh everything out on my scale, but havenít been weighing the flour and water by weight, for the starters.  I have only been using my measuring cups because I was varying the amounts of water and flour to see what would happen with my starter becoming more active with using less or more flour and water.  Well, first I measured 1 cup (229 grams) of starter, then I went to measure the flour and take half of the weight of the of 229 grams.  Something didnít look right, so I went on the web searching for how much flour should weigh in grams for Ĺ cup.  I found it should weigh 70 grams for Ĺ cup of flour.  Then I also thought about the weight of the water, so I looked again and found the water should weigh 112 grams for Ĺ cup of water.  I still donít know if I got this right, but this is the picture of the fed starter.  I donít know what I was thinking about, but can see how other people can become mixed up with all this.  :-D

Picture below,

Norma
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 01:02:28 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #137 on: August 21, 2010, 01:07:18 PM »
Sorry for any confusion that I've cause on my behalf.  What I am doing today is comparing how much IDY it would take to create an equivalent rise in the dough compared to an active ischia starter.  I made 2 doughballs.  1 has IDY in it and the other the ischia starter.  So technically they are separate and the IDY won't take over.   

I had fed the ischia late last night and left it out since I was in the process of activating it for the first time.  It was bubbly this morning.  I fed it only a tsp of flour or so just to get it active again, assuming the yeast had exhausted all of the available food source throughout the night.   After about an hour or so it was slightly more bubbly so I went ahead and use it in the formula.   After making the doughball, I fed it with a 1/2 cup of flour and some water.  About too hours later noted that the starter was much more active than when I used it this morning, thus my conclusion of maybe I hadn't used it at it's peak which is ideal.  I also made this conclusion after see the 2 doughballs (IDY vs Starter) were bulk rising at different rates, the IDY being faster. 

My starter is active now so I want to dump it into a measuring cup to weigh it but unsure as what to use.  A dry measure cup or one for liquid.  I will do both and average the weight. 

OK so I just measure out a cup of active starter using a dry measuring cup and got 210gm.   While pouring the frothy batter back into a liquid measuring cup, I noted that some of the bubbles are popping leading to a lower volume in the cup.  I just fed it again and will wait for it to become bubbly and active again before taking the 2nd measurement using a liqued measuring cup.   

Chau
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 01:17:11 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #138 on: August 21, 2010, 01:11:18 PM »
Chau,

I understand what you are trying to do now.  I also will measure my starter when it becomes active.

Norma
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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #139 on: August 21, 2010, 03:36:00 PM »
This picture is how the sour dough starter looked after two hours.  I didnít let it activate anymore and then weighed the active starter.  I used two different measuring cups I have here at home to measure how much a full measuring cup would weigh.  In the one measuring cup the active starter weighed 7.6 oz or 216 grams.  In the other measuring cup the active starter weighed 7.1 oz. or 202 grams. 

Picture below of how the starter looked before I measured out one cup of active starter..

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #140 on: August 21, 2010, 03:52:01 PM »
Norma after feeding and doubling, I re-measured using a measuring cup for liquids and got 186gm. 
My previous measure was 210 using the measuring cup for dry ingredients.   Obvious to me that the 2nd time around (186gm) that starter was much more frothier/bubbly at time of measurement. 

So I would say between 190 and 210, maybe 200gm for an average cup of active starter???
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 04:19:10 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #141 on: August 21, 2010, 04:11:55 PM »
Norma after feeding and doubling, I re-measured using a measuring cup for liquids and got 186gm. 
My previous measure was 210 using the measuring cup for dry ingredients.   Obvious to me that the 2nd time around (186gm) that starter was much more frothier/bubbly at time of measurement. 

So I would saw between 190 and 210, maybe 200gm for an average cup of active starter???

Chau,

I used two different measuring cups and filled them to the top rim.  I also got different numbers than you did.  I don't know what an average would be unless enough members would weigh a cup of active starter.  I can't be sure if someone adds more flour or less to make their starter active,  but there could be a difference in the weight, in my opinion.  I just don't know.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 09:49:28 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #142 on: August 21, 2010, 09:52:53 PM »
I removed the sour dough ball from the refrigerator at 7:00 pm tonight.  It didnít look like the dough ball rose anymore while in the refrigerator.  First picture is of dough ball right after I removed it from the refrigerator.  Second pictures is underneath dough ball after Ĺ hour warm up time.  Third picture is right before I opened the dough ball. Time for warm up was 1 Ĺ hrs.  This sourdough pizza was baked on my new soapstone.  I also took temperatures every 15 minutes of how hot my soapstone was getting.  I havenít tested this soapstone out long enough, but the results I had today arenít any different than my regular stone. The only difference I saw today was the pie was easier to load into the oven. As for the taste of the crust, I really enjoyed it.  I turned my broiler on to try and get the soapstone higher in temperature before I did the bake of this pizza, but even after 20 minutes the temperature only went up 30 more degrees.  I wasnít going to fool around with the oven or soapstone more, because it was really getting hot in my kitchen.

This pie was dressed with my regular sauce from market, blends of Foremost Farms cheese, green small tomatoes, and grape tomatoes from my garden.  After the pie was removed from the oven, it was dressed with opal basil and regular basil.

This is the formula I used for this sour dough pizza


Sour dough starter spit with KASL  14" PIE

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                269.92 g  |  9.52 oz | 0.6 lbs
Water (64%):                172.75 g  |  6.09 oz | 0.38 lbs
Salt (1.75%):                    4.72 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Total (165.75%):        447.39 g | 15.78 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.102515

Preferment:
Flour:      5.18 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs
Water:    3.45 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs     some spit
Total:     8.64 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:           264.74 g | 9.34 oz | 0.58 lbs
Water:          169.29 g | 5.97 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt:                      4.72 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Preferment:         8.64 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs
Total:            447.39 g | 15.78 oz | 0.99 lbs  | TF = 0.102515

Norma
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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2010, 09:53:56 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #144 on: August 21, 2010, 09:55:03 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #145 on: August 21, 2010, 09:55:50 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #146 on: August 21, 2010, 10:02:50 PM »
Nice work Norma.  My experiment with the starter vs IDY today was a botch.  At least you got pies out of your experiment.  There were several reasons for the botched experiment, but I will spare you the details. 

chau

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2010, 10:08:07 PM »
Nice work Norma.  My experiment with the starter vs IDY today was a botch.  At least you got pies out of your experiment.  There were several reasons for the botched experiment, but I will spare you the details. 

chau

Jackie Tran,

Can you just tell me what might have happened?  I was anxious for to see you try out the starter.  Thanks for saying the pie was nice work.  :)  I wish I could have baked this pie in my oven at market to see what difference it would have made.  My home oven doesn't get to that high of temperatures.  Even with the soapstone, there didn't seem to be much difference in how my oven bakes.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 10:09:47 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #148 on: August 21, 2010, 10:18:55 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell us  how the latest pizza compared from a crust flavor and/or texture standpoint from the Lehmann preferment pizzas with the commercial yeast? Any other salient observations?

Peter

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Re: Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters
« Reply #149 on: August 21, 2010, 10:31:34 PM »

Peter,

I enjoyed this crust more than any in the past. Although my temperatures in my oven werenít hot enough like my BBQ grill set-up to make a really fast pie, the taste of the crust was the star.  The interior was soft and the crust had a slight crunch.  I ate 3 slices and am thinking about going back for the 4th.  This sour dough ball was easy to open and seemed about right in terms of being at the right time to open it.  At the last minute I turned the broiler on to try and get the rim darker, hence the darker rim.  There seemed to be good oven spring and the opened dough did have bubbles in it.  I think if I would have left this dough at room temperature all day, there would have been problems.  This pie was baked in 6 minutes.  I know I am going to enjoy experimenting with more sour dough.  My preferment Lehmann dough at market isnít this good.  There wasnít any sour dough taste to the crust. 

Norma
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