Author Topic: Deep Dish Pizza Dough Too Thick and Bread Like (Read 3477 times)

rkelly · « **on:** August 16, 2010, 01:18:24 PM »

Hello, I am new to the forum and I have a question about deep dish pizza dough that may have been answered before.

I am using a recipe that taste great, but when I cook it, my pizza comes out like pizza bread rather than the thin, crispy crust that I see in many of your photos.

The recipe I am using is:

1 PKG Yeast
2 Cups Water
1 TSP Sugar
1 TSP Salt
1/2 Cup Corm Meal
3 1/2 Cups Flour (AP)
1/2 Cups Corn Oil

I am proffing the yeast in the warm water with the sugar. I let the dough rise for an hour and then refrig overnight. I let it warm up and then press if in to a 14" pizza pan. After it bakes the sides are not thin and crispy or flaky, but about an inch think and very bread-like. The bottom is also very think even though it is pressed down thin in the pan.

The taste is great, but the consistancy is not. What am I doing wrong.

Thanks everyone for all your great recipes and insights on pizza making!!!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2010, 01:29:47 PM »

rkelly,

Can you tell us how deep your 14" pan is, whether the sides are straight or sloping, and how far up the sides of the pan you press the dough? If the sides are sloping, what are the top and bottom diameters? Also, what brand of all-purpose flour are you using and how do you measure out the flour (e.g., stir, lift into the measuring cups and level, or scoop and level, etc.)?

Peter

vcb · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2010, 01:41:02 PM »

Quote from: rkelly on August 16, 2010, 01:18:24 PM

Hello, I am new to the forum and I have a question about deep dish pizza dough that may have been answered before.

I am using a recipe that taste great, but when I cook it, my pizza comes out like pizza bread rather than the thin, crispy crust that I see in many of your photos.

The recipe I am using is:

1 PKG Yeast
2 Cups Water
1 TSP Sugar
1 TSP Salt
1/2 Cup Corm Meal
3 1/2 Cups Flour (AP)
1/2 Cups Corn Oil

I am proffing the yeast in the warm water with the sugar. I let the dough rise for an hour and then refrig overnight. I let it warm up and then press if in to a 14" pizza pan. After it bakes the sides are not thin and crispy or flaky, but about an inch think and very bread-like. The bottom is also very think even though it is pressed down thin in the pan.

The taste is great, but the consistancy is not. What am I doing wrong.

Thanks everyone for all your great recipes and insights on pizza making!!!

Hi, RK.
I'll withhold my rant about cornmeal for the moment (you can search this forum for that and other wonderful info if you like).

My first guess would be that you may have over-kneaded the dough.
Most deep dish dough preparation should be 'mix until combined, then briefly knead until the dough forms a ball'.
If you're kneading longer than 2 minutes after the ingredients are combined, you're probably kneading too long.
Kneading creates gluten. The more you knead, the more gluten your dough will have.
More gluten makes dough stretchy, and potentially bready.

As Peter said, if you're using too small of a pan (or too much dough), you can also have some of the problems you described.

c0mpl3x · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2010, 01:54:18 PM »

last time i made that recipe i weighed it out to 38.xx ounces.

cut that in half for your 14" pan.

also, you can switch to popcorn butter for oil to nail the uno taste that recipe 'claims' to have.

secondly, if you hydrate the cornmeal by placing it into BOILING water, you don't get the 'gritty' taste the cornmeal has, and leaves a wonderful taste that isn't possible by mixing it outright.

rkelly · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2010, 02:07:16 PM »

The pan I am using is about 2" high. I am pressing the dough all the way up the sides. The sides do not slope. The flour is Gold Medal All Purpose Unbleached. I am lifting and leveling.

Maybe I am over-kneading. I notice that the dough more than doubles when it rises. It is very "Airy". I thought maybe it needed more flour.

I am going for the Uno/Lou Malnati's/Pizanno's of chicago type crust. Now that I look at other recipes here, it looks like I have enough dough for two pizzas. Maybe that is my problem.

Thank you all for your quick response! I would like to read your rant about cornmeal.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2010, 04:06:40 PM »

rkelly,

First, kudos to bbp c0mpl3x. He hit the nail on the head on the total dough weight. I got 38.8923 ounces. He is going a long way in his pizza making career

.

To determine the thickness factor you used, I first converted your recipe to baker's percent format based on the information you provided. To convert the volume of flour to a weight, I used member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/. For that tool, I used the GM all-purpose flour in the pull-down menu together with the Textbook flour Measurement Method. Then I used the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html. I varied the value of the number in the thickness factor box until I got a total dough weight of 38.89 ounces. The value of thickness factor that produced that dough weigh was 0.16845. That number is far too high for a deep-dish dough used in a 14" pan with a depth of 2" (straight side). For the record, the dough formulation is as follows:

GM All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (107.253%):
ADY (1.63495%):
Salt (1.28752%):
Corn Oil (24.9135%):
Sugar (0.91966%):
Cornmeal (18.3391%):
Total (254.34773%):

433.54 g | 15.29 oz | 0.96 lbs
464.99 g | 16.4 oz | 1.03 lbs
7.09 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
108.01 g | 3.81 oz | 0.24 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
3.99 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
79.51 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
1102.71 g | 38.9 oz | 2.43 lbs | TF = 0.16845

Dough is for a 14" x 2" deep pan with straight sides, with the dough pressed up to the full 2"; no bowl residue compensation

It will be noted that the hydration is 107.253%. Since the cornmeal also has to be hydrated, a more accurate hydration value would be 90.66%. Even that value seems very high for a deep-dish dough. Unless I made an error somewhere, or unless there was a lot of bench flour added to the dough, is it possible that there is an error in the ingredients list? Adding almost 25% oil would make the dough seem and feel even more wet.

A more typical value of thickness factor for a deep-dish dough would be around 0.12-0.13. If the ingredients you listed are correct, I can alter the dough formulation posted above and tell you what amounts of ingredients are required for any given thickness factor value you would like to use.

Peter

rkelly · « **Reply #6 on:** August 16, 2010, 05:32:16 PM »

Holy e=mc squared Batman!!! That is AWESOME!!!

it sounds like I have too much dough. I was thinking I could cut the recipe in half and see how that goes. Do you guys all weigh your flour? What is the best brand? Looks like I have my work cut-out for me. This is quite a science!

Thanks so much!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #7 on:** August 16, 2010, 05:50:04 PM »

rkelly,

The recipe still doesn't look right to me. If you mix the flour, water, cornmeal and oil, you will end up with something that is soup-like. Are you sure of the recipe quantities? Or is some flour unaccounted for? Can you tell us where you found the recipe?

Many of our members own digital scales and have gotten used to using them to weigh the main ingredients like flour and water. For the rest of the ingredients, the volume measurements are usually good enough. The deep-dish dough calculating tool makes it easy to determine the quantities of ingredients needed to make any size deep-dish pizza using deep-dish pans of any depth and dough height in the pans. The sides of the pans can be straight or sloping.

With further respect to the thickness factor, member BTB, who is an expert on deep-dish pizza, uses a thickness factor of 0.125 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% (e.g., see Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg62314.html#msg62314).

The members use most types of flour with the exception of high-gluten flour. Good brands of flour are the Ceresota/Hecker's brands, which are found mostly in the Midwest. Most members do not use cornmeal but will use semolina.

Peter

vcb · « **Reply #8 on:** August 16, 2010, 06:13:57 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on August 16, 2010, 05:50:04 PM

rkelly,

The recipe still doesn't look right to me. If you mix the flour, water, cornmeal and oil, you will end up with something that is soup-like. Are you sure of the recipe quantities? Or is some flour unaccounted for? Can you tell us where you found the recipe?

Many of our members own digital scales and have gotten used to using them to weigh the main ingredients like flour and water. For the rest of the ingredients, the volume measurements are usually good enough. The deep-dish dough calculating tool makes it easy to determine the quantities of ingredients needed to make any size deep-dish pizza using deep-dish pans of any depth and dough height in the pans. The sides of the pans can be straight or sloping.

With further respect to the thickness factor, member BTB, who is an expert on deep-dish pizza, uses a thickness factor of 0.125 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% (e.g., see Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg62314.html#msg62314).

The members use most types of flour with the exception of high-gluten flour. Good brands of flour are the Ceresota/Hecker's brands, which are found mostly in the Midwest. Most members do not use cornmeal but will use semolina.

Peter

107% water?
That sounds like way too much water.

c0mpl3x · « **Reply #9 on:** August 16, 2010, 06:20:12 PM »

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dkm_chicago.php

he's using dkm's deepdish recipe with an additional 25% more water than it calls for.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #10 on:** August 16, 2010, 06:39:41 PM »

Quote from: bbp c0mpl3x on August 16, 2010, 06:20:12 PM

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dkm_chicago.php

he's using dkm's deepdish recipe with an additional 25% more water than it calls for.

Ahh. That helps explain things. Thank you.

To get 18 ounces of flour by weight in DKM's recipe, the flour measurement would have to be the Medium flour Measurement Method in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/. Some time ago, I did a fair amount of work with DKM's recipe. As a result of that effort, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.1329. An example of the use of that thickness factor value with the DKM baker's percents is given in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2258.msg19897/topicseen.html#msg19897. If rkelly is interested in a version of DKM's recipe for a 14" x 2" straight-sided pan, I can help him with the math.

Peter

rkelly · « **Reply #11 on:** August 17, 2010, 12:30:15 PM »

You are correct. It was the 1 1/2 cup of water, not 2. I was going off memory at work. That is exactly the recipe I was starting with.

Although, that recipe shows the pizza going into a 15" pan and it is not the bready crust that I got - about 1 inch thick in a 14" pan. The crust very airy and dense like sourdough bread, rather than think, crispy with a flake to it.

I would be very interested in the math.

Thanks again everyone!

vcb · « **Reply #12 on:** August 17, 2010, 12:46:20 PM »

Quote from: rkelly on August 17, 2010, 12:30:15 PM

You are correct. It was the 1 1/2 cup of water, not 2. I was going off memory at work. That is exactly the recipe I was starting with.

Although, that recipe shows the pizza going into a 15" pan and it is not the bready crust that I got - about 1 inch thick in a 14" pan. The crust very airy and dense like sourdough bread, rather than think, crispy with a flake to it.

I would be very interested in the math.

Thanks again everyone!

Please spend a little time wading thru the posts here. There's a lot of brilliant culinary minds posting on here, sharing their experiences (and photos).
You may find a better recipe than the one you're using.
I've compiled one here that might get you closer to the mark, if you're interested:
http://www.virtualcheeseburger.com/RealDeepDishPizza-vcb.pdf

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** August 17, 2010, 01:48:29 PM »

Quote from: rkelly on August 17, 2010, 12:30:15 PM

You are correct. It was the 1 1/2 cup of water, not 2. I was going off memory at work. That is exactly the recipe I was starting with.

Although, that recipe shows the pizza going into a 15" pan and it is not the bready crust that I got - about 1 inch thick in a 14" pan. The crust very airy and dense like sourdough bread, rather than think, crispy with a flake to it.

I would be very interested in the math.

rkelly,

I have presented below a version of DKM's recipe that I created using the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html for a 14" x 2" straight-sided pan with the dough pressed up the full depth (2") of the pan. I used a thickness factor of 0.1329. I also substituted corn oil for canola oil.

DKM's Deep-Dish Dough Recipe for a 14" x 2" Deep-Dish Pan

All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (61.1%):
ADY (1.4%):
Salt (1.4%):
Corn Oil (19.5%):
Sugar (2.1%):
Cornmeal (19.5%):
Total (205%):

424.39 g | 14.97 oz | 0.94 lbs
259.3 g | 9.15 oz | 0.57 lbs
5.94 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
5.94 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
82.76 g | 2.92 oz | 0.18 lbs | 6.13 tbsp | 0.38 cups
8.91 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.24 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
82.76 g | 2.92 oz | 0.18 lbs | 8.33 tbsp | 0.52 cups
869.99 g | 30.69 oz | 1.92 lbs | TF = 0.1329

Note: No bowl residue compensation

I actually liked the DKM deep-dish dough recipe. I even made a "lite" version of the recipe, which I suspect diehard Chicago deep-dish devotees would consider blasphemous, but being an experimenter I wanted to see if a "lite" version was doable and worthwhile. I described and showed my results, for a 9" size, starting at Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,638.msg5914.html#msg5914. But, whatever way you go with DKM's recipe, I think you should follow the advice given by Ed (vcb) on how to prepare the dough and also consider the advice given by bbp c0mpl3x regarding the cornmeal.

The above said, I think that you should also heed Ed's advice to consider other deep-dish dough recipes on the forum, including his recipe. Most of the recipes do not use cormmeal and will give you a different perspective on the deep-dish style.

Peter

rkelly · « **Reply #14 on:** August 17, 2010, 04:37:09 PM »

I will without a doubt be checking out many of the recipes I have found on this site. Thanks for the link.

It is almost overwhelming how much information is on this site. I can’t wait to try some of this stuff out.

Thank you guys so much!

loowaters · « **Reply #15 on:** August 17, 2010, 06:34:39 PM »

Quote from: vcb on August 17, 2010, 12:46:20 PM

Please spend a little time wading thru the posts here. There's a lot of brilliant culinary minds posting on here, sharing their experiences (and photos).
You may find a better recipe than the one you're using.
I've compiled one here that might get you closer to the mark, if you're interested:
http://www.virtualcheeseburger.com/RealDeepDishPizza-vcb.pdf

Ed, when did you up your oil percentages and what noticeable results are you getting versus my Malnati's clone?

Loo

vcb · « **Reply #16 on:** August 17, 2010, 06:53:08 PM »

Quote from: loowaters on August 17, 2010, 06:34:39 PM

Ed, when did you up your oil percentages and what noticeable results are you getting versus my Malnati's clone?

Loo

Hi, Loo. That's actually not even my latest version, but I've been slowly increasing hydration, mostly oil, to see if I would get better crispiness in the crust.
I was also trying to simplify the recipe so anyone could just grab cup and tablespoon measures and get a decent result without grabbing the scale.
I'm actually up to 50% water (approx 8oz for the 14" pie) and about 4 tablespoons each of olive oil and corn oil (25% oil), though that's just my current preference.
p.s. - I'm pretty happy with the Ceresota brand of all purpose flour.

loowaters · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2010, 07:00:50 PM »

Quote from: vcb on August 17, 2010, 06:53:08 PM

Hi, Loo. That's actually not even my latest version, but I've been slowly increasing hydration, mostly oil, to see if I would get better crispiness in the crust.
I was also trying to simplify the recipe so anyone could just grab cup and tablespoon measures and get a decent result without grabbing the scale.
I'm actually up to 50% water (approx 8oz for the 14" pie) and about 4 tablespoons each of olive oil and corn oil (25% oil), though that's just my current preference.
p.s. - I'm pretty happy with the Ceresota brand of all purpose flour.

Constant tinkering

I've stayed pat on the formulation we estimated from the Malnati's video. I'm always interested in different flours. Ceresota isn't available here but I'll be sure to grab a bag next time I'm back home.

Loo

vcb · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2010, 07:03:39 PM »

Quote from: loowaters on August 17, 2010, 07:00:50 PM

Constant tinkering I've stayed pat on the formulation we estimated from the Malnati's video. I'm always interested in different flours. Ceresota isn't available here but I'll be sure to grab a bag next time I'm back home.

Loo

If you can't find Ceresota, try looking for Heckers. It's the same company.

loowaters · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2010, 09:56:31 AM »

Quote from: vcb on August 17, 2010, 07:03:39 PM

If you can't find Ceresota, try looking for Heckers. It's the same company.

I've never seen either in Iowa...but I'll keep looking.