Author Topic: Experiment with frozen dough  (Read 4411 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Experiment with frozen dough
« on: August 14, 2010, 07:19:03 PM »
Long story short - it did not work out very well. My work schedule is brutal, so I was trying to see if I could freeze dough at the ready-to-cook stage to save some time every other week. I would make six balls, let them proof, freeze three and cook three. Then the next week I would not need to make dough (so I hoped). I took the dough out of the freezer yesterday, pulled it out of the fridge today and let them come to room temp before cooking.

The dough cooked very oddly, and was hyper-pocked with leoparding. The inside did not cook fast enough, so it was almost raw. Even the dessert pizza dough which I let sit in the oven at a lower temp for around 2 minutes did not cook well in the middle. Flavor was fine, just not light, airy texture. If anyone has suggestions or experience please advise.

Pizza: salt packed anchovy, small hot peppers, Cento DOP, and bufula.
Dessert: Nutella, morello cherry preserves, basil.

John
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 09:33:11 PM by dellavecchia »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 08:17:23 PM »
So that's how you get the extreme leoparding. I gotta try that. :). Even your screwed up pies look delicious!

Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 08:53:30 PM »
John,

The usual recommended approach is to put frozen dough from the freezer in the refrigerator section for about a day before using. It may have happened in your case that the outside of the dough looked normal but the center may still have been too cold.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 12:37:28 AM »
in my experience proofed then frozen dough causes that.  don't proof it so far before freezing!
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 06:44:19 PM »
Oh.......John, that is one tasty looking pizza!

Color corrected to get rid of a bit of blue and orange tints.

Really nice looking pie there.....bet that mutha was delicious!  :D
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 02:38:13 PM »
John, your pizza is a fine example:

http://www.pizzablogger.org/index.php/anatomy-of-a-pizza/

Blog is still half down, but working on getting it fully back on-line. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 08:13:36 PM »
John, your pizza is a fine example:

http://www.pizzablogger.org/index.php/anatomy-of-a-pizza/

Blog is still half down, but working on getting it fully back on-line. --K


I'm famous! I enjoyed reading your blog as well.

John

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 01:37:06 PM »
A lot of people would KILL for a pie that looked like that. That leopard spotting is what some peolple strive for. Maybe your on to something!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 03:26:31 PM »
A lot of people would KILL for a pie that looked like that. That leopard spotting is what some peolple strive for. Maybe your on to something!

The hyper spotting, come to find out, is due to over fermentation. I have taken peoples advice on this thread and put the dough balls in the freezer after a 1 day cold rise. The process of letting the dough thaw in the fridge over the course of another day brings it to where it should be.

John

cornicione54

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2010, 03:51:02 PM »
The hyper spotting, come to find out, is due to over fermentation. I have taken peoples advice on this thread and put the dough balls in the freezer after a 1 day cold rise. The process of letting the dough thaw in the fridge over the course of another day brings it to where it should be.

John

The term 'over fermentation' is misleading, no? I mean you could use a crapload of yeast in a dough and let it rise for 3 hours and it would technically be overfermented (and taste like crap) but it wouldn't have the leopard spotting you've shown. The cold rise you used slows down the fermentation so, again, unlikely that over fermentation is the key factor here.
I don't think you can dismiss leopard spots as a "sign of overfermentation". I think they are simply the SIDE EFFECT of SOME fermentation/dough regiments....not something that is the product of deliberate "spot engineering"  :P
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 04:00:38 PM by cornicione54 »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 04:04:16 PM »
John, I LOVE IT!!!  I agree DMCavanagh, loads of ppl would kill for that that.   I don't care if it's overfermented, cold fermented, or if you said some secret prayer to the Pox god to get it - I want it!

I have 2 doughballs cold resting right now specifically for this experiment.  I'm baking one up tonight.  I think I will toss the other in the freezer for a day, then thaw it.  I really really hope you are right about it.   John have you been able to improve it's texture or taste compared to your regular dough that isn't frozen?  or is the texture still coming out weird?

Bake temps and time are the same correct as your regular pies correct?  How much do you normally let your dough proof up before baking?  Do you go by time and or visual cues (doubling etc)?

Again, fantastic looking pies.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2010, 10:48:58 PM »
Tonight, my search for the black plague pizza is getting closer.  To all those who have told me 1) long fermentation and 2) high heat you were right!  Thanks a bunch.

I had a doughball that was cold fermented for 3 days.  This one was a mix of 1/2 AP and 1/2 HG BF which explains the dark color.  Anywho, I baked this skin up in the home oven by itself so I could make a dessert pizza like the one John posted above.   

Again, my routine is primo stone about 2.5" under the broiler.   Well, I took my eyes off of it for a minute and the center, not having sauce or toppings bubbled up right into the broiler for a bit.   As soon as I realized what was happening, I turned the skin a few times and pulled it out and this is what I see...

My problem all this time was that I didn't have enough heat to bring the spots out.   Apparently there is a heat discrepancy in my home oven even at 2.5" from the broiler.  When I noticed this and it was time to rim the edge, I stuck the edge right in the fire but guess what....no extreme leoparding.  Apparently the dough has to go from cool to high intense heat right away.  If it goes from heat to high heat, you get less leoparding.   So the leoparding (IMO) comes from fermentation (not necessarily cold either) and HOT instanteous heat.  This is why I need a WFO. :)

John, thanks for starting this thread.  And I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if you are still after that "authentic" look then I believe it's just a heat issue.  Either lower your heat or bake further away from the fire and you should have what you are looking for.  If the reverse was true for me, then I believe this could solve your issue. 

I hope I can get this extreme leoparding again. 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 12:34:07 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 11:12:56 PM »
I've seen pictures of leopard spotting on pies posted by FoolishPoolish over at SeriousEats SLICE page. I seem to remember that they were also done under a broiler.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »
I'm sure you've seen it, but Toby has a few threads on this forum...

Nearlypolitan
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html

He makes beautiful pies.  I believe his oven set up/top heat is a bit different from mine even though we both use the broiler technique.  Too bad he's not around anymore... :'(

I have been able to get something similar awhile back but tonight was the 2nd time.  Check out reply #228.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.220.html
This was when I first started trying to find them. 

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2010, 11:29:49 PM »
Thanks for that link, that's one I want to try!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2010, 09:06:07 AM »
John have you been able to improve it's texture or taste compared to your regular dough that isn't frozen?  or is the texture still coming out weird?

Bake temps and time are the same correct as your regular pies correct?  How much do you normally let your dough proof up before baking?  Do you go by time and or visual cues (doubling etc)?

Chau

Chau - I have gotten the frozen dough to come out much better, looking (and tasting) pretty much the same as my normal pies. My suggestion: if you really want to try for this hyper pocked look is to freeze the dough in the state ready for the oven. 24 cold ferment, 6 hour room temp rise. Then freeze it. Let it thaw for a day in the fridge, and then room temp for a few hours before using. You will get this weirdness, I am sure. The point by Peter about this dough possibly not been completely thawed/cold may also be a factor.

Let is also be known again that even though some are admiring this "look", the dough did not taste very good. I wonder if Marco, if he were still on the board, would characterize it as a dough defect, even if it tasted spectacular?

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2010, 09:24:59 AM »
John, thank you for detailing your process.  I put a dough ball in the freezer yesterday.  I'll thaw it out today or tomorrow and wait another 24 hours.  I really hope to get something like this.   ;D
It is Bootiful.  I'm sure Marco would slap you for that pie.   :-D

Chau

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2010, 09:39:21 AM »
@JackieTran  Nice experiment!

In my limited experience, high heat alone is not the issue....it is radiant high heat and close proximity of the pizza to said heat source.

The spotting/darkening in my own oven, at regular "bottom shelf" stone placement, is at a minimal level. In my friend's kitchen oven there is definitely more spotting/darkening, with the major difference being his oven has a convection setting (fan) which moves the hot air over and around the pizza.

Of course, using the broiler to cook the pies and placing the pizza in close proximity to it results in definite leopard spotting. Definite air flow moving around and over the pizza using that set up, not to mention close proximity of the pizza to the flames.

Another friend's home made brick oven, which was hastily constructed, has significant chimney/flue issues as smoke consistently builds up and sits in the dome of the oven as a pizza cooking session progresses. The resultant pizzas (regardless who makes the dough), aside from being largely inedible from smokiness, rarely exhibit leoparding. Of course, most properly set up domed ovens have significant radiant, moving heat of a high temperature which aids in leoparding.

Some of Foolish Poolish's experiments and thoughts about leoparding (miss you Toby!) indicate that fermentation of a dough actually plays a role in impeding leoparding, but that's another discussion.

Regardless, the pie dellavecchia posted has well defined leoparding which is very similar, albeit not as dark, as the pies Paulie Gee is serving at 60GPA. Of course, some people prefer less spotting, but that is the beauty of home pizza making....the ability to make something closer to the heart's desire. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Tampa

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2010, 01:12:37 PM »
Thanks for the post pizzablogger.  There is one concept that was not clear to me and maybe to others.  I think you are saying that high radiant heat and a convection fan both encourage spotting.  I that correct?

Your friendís oven with lots of smoke inhibiting leoparding is an interesting observation. 
 
Dave

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Experiment with frozen dough
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2010, 01:28:31 PM »
Tran Man , sorry to hear that your beautiful "cat" didn't live up to taste expectations.Will be following your experiments on this one , hope you find a solution. You know the old saying, "looks aren't everything!"


 

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