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Offline PizzaSean

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Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« on: August 13, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »
Hey everyone,

So, I'm beginning to gather up the supplies for my first batch of dough and wanted to run by some plans to see if anyone had any feedback or noticed any glaring errors or anything.

I plan to pick up a soapstone for baking on and will be using a conventional oven setup which maxes out at 550F but has a broiler.  I read in another thread that preaheating to 550 and then running the broiler for a cycle will bring the stone heat up into the 700F range... I will obviously have to experiment and use a thermometer, but that is the current plan. 

For simplicity, I'm going to just use IDY instead of a starter which seems slightly more complicated.  I plan to do a cold rise though I'm not sure how long is best... I've seen people talk about 24 hours and just read through Jeff Varasano's wonderful site where he talks about doing 6 days at times.  Since I've read that all cultures are different, I'm wondering if a commercially available IDY has a rough amount of consistency where I could ballpark do it for say 2 days with good results?  I realize it's impossible to promise the best results without actually experimenting, but I'm just looking for a method where I'm not going to be completely butchering it is all.

After reading through the JV website and hand-mix threads by Pete-zza and Jackie Tran I've come up with this plan; 


For 4 pies 16" TF of .085

Flour (100%):
Water (66%):
IDY (.2%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (167.95%):
Single Ball:
1153.94 g  |  40.7 oz | 2.54 lbs
761.6 g  |  26.86 oz | 1.68 lbs
2.31 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
20.19 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.62 tsp | 1.21 tbsp
1938.04 g | 68.36 oz | 4.27 lbs | TF = 0.085
484.51 g | 17.09 oz | 1.07 lbs

Questions: 
Would it be best to use cold or room temp water --- or is 100-110F water the right choice?

I chose a smaller amount of yeast in the range given on the Lehmann calc because I plan to let it cold rise 2 days - is this right?




Method


So, from my reading through other people's hand-mixing suggestions it seems as though the following plan will work.  Again, I'm only posting this because I've never made any kind of dough from scratch...

-75% of total flour

? yeast now or after autolyse period ?  Varasano says now, Tran says after, and I cant find Peter's thread right now
? mix all dry ingredients together throughly?
or
? mix yeast and salt into the water and gradually add flour?

-so one way or another I get all (or most if I am supposed to add yeast later) my ingredients into a nice big bowl and I stir with a spoon for 6-8 minutes

-cover the bowl (with a towel I'm guessing?) and let sit for 15 min

-halfway through this autolyse period, I should be trying to incorporate the 25% remainder of the flour into the sitting dough

-let it sit for another 15 min (so it's 30 min total)

Kneading

-Here's where it seems like the methods diverge a bit more

Tran's makes a lot of sense though so...

-2 cycles of 5 min knead, 5 min rest.
-2-3 cycles of 5-10 folds, followed by 5 min rest.
-divide dough and complete the balls with a seal and get them covered (bowl w/ plastic wrap or ziploc bag??) and into the fridge for 2 days


Take it out for 1-2 hours before use and make pizza!


Okay... so I know I sprinkled a lot of questions in there, but I feel like I'm trying to sort through a lot of different info with slight changes from one to the next and find a single composite method that will work.

Thanks in advanced to anyone who can take the time to read this and help out with any questions! :)

Sean


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 02:20:38 PM »
Sean,

What type and brand of flour will you be using?

I usually use the straight dough method, without any autolyse or other rest periods, and I use a water temperature that will give me a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. The dough goes in the refrigerator right after it is made and divided, without any rest periods. If I want two days of cold fermentation, I would use cold water and about 0.35% IDY. The IDY gets mixed in with the flour and is not exposed to salt in water. If you plan to use elaborate mixing and kneading techniques and rest periods along the lines you mentioned, you most likely have to use very cold water to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F since the dough will be subjected to multiple rest periods that can cause the dough to warm up very quickly and possibly exceed the above range, especially if the water temperature is not low enough. In that scenario, the 0.20% IDY might turn out to be enough yeast, because the dough will start to ferment as it sits at room temperature, but that will depend in part on the finished dough temperature after you have gone through all of the production steps. 

Peter

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 02:26:16 PM »
I haven't decided 100%, but I think I'm going to try the All Trumps. 

So, I should plan to mix 75% of the flour very well with the IDY (which I can increase the amount of as per your suggestion).  Then, I can separately mix the salt and water together?  And then add the two so that the salt and yeast don't mix? 


Thanks for the help!
Sean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 02:45:08 PM »
I haven't decided 100%, but I think I'm going to try the All Trumps. 

So, I should plan to mix 75% of the flour very well with the IDY (which I can increase the amount of as per your suggestion).  Then, I can separately mix the salt and water together?  And then add the two so that the salt and yeast don't mix? 

Sean,

My practice is to add the IDY to the flour and dissolve the salt in the water. At that point, it is safe to add the flour/IDY mix to the water/salt mixture. If the yeast is added to the water simultaneously with the salt, the salt, which is a hygroscopic ingredient that competes for moisture along with the yeast, can cause the yeast cells to release cellular fluids that can impair performance of the dough. That won't happen if the salt is completely dissolved in the water.

If you plan to use the All Trumps flour, you will perhaps have to use hand mixing/kneading methods such as used by Chau to be able to use a hydration of 66%. In my experience, it is considerably harder to achieve a 66% hydration using the straight dough method, even with a stand mixer. To do this, I usually sift the flour to improve its hydration and I use all three attachments to my basic KitchenAid stand mixer (whisk, paddle and C-hook).

Peter

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 03:16:44 PM »
Peter,

I saw the word hygroscopic around a few times but hadn't got around to looking it up.  Now it makes sense!  Okay... so I'll keep those ingredients away from each other as you said.

It seems like I may have to incorporate the salt at a warmer water temp and then bring it down in order to get it cold how i need it.  Does that seem right?  Unnecessary?

Re:  All Trumps and the higher hydration... I'll give Chau's mixing/kneading methods a try in that case.  Guess we'll see what happens!

Sean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 04:10:32 PM »
It seems like I may have to incorporate the salt at a warmer water temp and then bring it down in order to get it cold how i need it.  Does that seem right?  Unnecessary?

Sean,

Salt may dissolve better in warm water but I just dissolve it in whatever water I use, warm or cold.

Peter

Offline sear

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 06:17:38 PM »
i have some advice on the oven. it is not the easiest thing to control when u use the clean cycle.. it depends on the oven
but for the cleaning cycle to come on the oven for me oven needs to be in the 450< range. so i would recommend stone should be in that range before attempting 400 to be safe...
depending on how much time you set the cycle for determines how long each element comes on for so the oven could turn the bottom one on right before its hot enough to load the pie..
if your oven has more control over the clean cycle for the user, it shouldn't be any problem  ;)

Offline sear

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 06:23:50 PM »
another note with using the AT flour and 750degrees.
it will burn quickly.
i have been thinking about this in reguards to HG flour and high heat.
will using caputo or AP flour when you press out, open the pie and some on the peel, provide a good barrier between the easier burning HG flour ?
im starting to do this now, cant say for sure but it seems to be working... somebody get the WFO  :)


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2010, 12:30:27 PM »
Thanks Sear,

I actually have no plans at all to use the cleaning cycle of the oven.  Since I rent and it is my landlord's stove, I have no option to cut the lock or make modifications like that.

But from what I remember reading, I think I can reach above 550 with using a thicker stone (plan to buy soapstone) and then running the broiler for a cycle rather than the cleaning cycle.  Someone was saying that running that for a cycle could kind of "supercharge" the heat of the stone.  Then I'd wait a minute like Jackie Tran said to do for the purposes of letting the heat distribute throughout the stone.  Then bake.

Re:  All Trumps burning at this temp... I have heard of that being a problem, but I plan to keep the bake time short. 

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 12:41:55 PM »
WOOHOO!

Just did a little test experiment with my brother yesterday and it turns out I can fit an 18" pie in our oven!!!

Our oven will fit 18" deep and if I go 22" width there would be 1" on either side for airflow.

Just excited about that...


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 01:10:29 PM »
PizzaSean, sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread.  I think the advice you have been given is good and I'll see if I can add to that if possible.

I have posted a few methods for hand kneading and I believe you are referring to the one I posted in the Easy to remember NY recipe thread.  I'm constantly changing up my hand kneading method and testing different methods against one another to see the result. 

To answer a few questions.  Mixing yeast in during or after the process isn't that critical and won't make a huge difference in the end product.  I would simply just follow the recipe and instructions specific to a posted recipe.  For now, I would do as Peter instructs.  Dissolve salt in water, add IDY to about 50% of the flour to be added in the water first. 

If you haven't made the dough yet, go ahead and use this update kneading technique.  I've learned a few things since putting that first method up awhile back.   If you are going to cold ferment for 2 days, then you want to cut back the kneading since cold fermentation will strengthen the dough (help develop gluten) quite a bit. 

-dissolve salt in water.  Mix IDY in about 50% of the flour.  Dump the flour/IDY mix into the salt water
 and with a fork stir briskly to get a uniform batter.  The goal is to keep the batter uniform.  One trick I use is to run the edge of the fork against the bowl (leaning sideways) back and forth.  This will get rid of lumps very quickly.
-Then add another 50% of the remaining flour in and repeat.  Stir to get a consistent batter.
-Then add in another 50% and repeat.  At this point you should have a thickish heavy batter.  You have added about 85% of the total amount of flour and it should have taken you under 2 mins to do.
-Let this sit for about 20-30m.  Autolysing helps the flour hydrate and gluten will start to develop.  When gluten develops, it traps water molecules and will allow you to mix a wetter dough thus higher hydration.  I sometimes hand mix upto a 77% hydrated dough, but neither that plus baking on the cleaning cyle gives optimum results IMO.

-After the rest period.  Dump the wet dough out on the counter or workbench and dump the remaining 15% of the flour nearby.
-Pick up the wet dough and dip the bottom side into the remaining flour.  Shake off excess, and begin to fold the dough gently.  don't smack the dough around!   Fold the wet side onto it self so the flour side is always on the exterior.  Do a few folds and the exterior will start to feel wet again. 
-Redip and repeat until most or all of the remaining flour is gone. 
This should take you about 6-8 min. 
Remember the goal here is gentle, folding in of flour a bit at a time.  YOur dough at this point may resemble a cottage cheese look.  That's ok and what you want.
-now let the dough rest for about 5min.  Come back to it and the consistency should be very different.  Some dough magic has just happend.  Weigh, divide, and ball the individual doughballs at this point.  If the dough feels slightly wet or tacky, you can dust the balls with a bit of bench flour.  The skin of the dough may look smooth at this point, no problem.

It will have been about 45 min since the yeast hit the water.   I would let the balls sit out covered or in their respective containers for another 15-30min before putting them to sleep.  this allows the IDY to have a bit of a kick starter.

Load into the fridge.  Pull out in 2 days and be sure to monitor it daily.  If you see the presence of big bubbles surfacing then it's time to use the dough.  This dough should last 2-5 days in the fridge no problem.   Once you pull it out let it proof at room temps for 2-4 hours before using.  These times can vary depending on how long the cold ferement was, how much yeast was used, your ambient room temps, etc, etc.   you'll want to see the doughballs double or get close to double and then use them.   Don't let them overproof as the dough can become unusable.

Good luck and post up some pics. 

Chau
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 01:15:29 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 01:34:11 PM »
Thanks Chau!

That sounds like an easy to follow set of directions... I'll be trying that pretty soon, but I'm waiting getting a few more of my supplies together.

A couple quick questions:

-during the autolyse and the subsequent rest periods before refrigeration, should I be covering the dough up?  Or just leave it sit out uncovered?

-during the 2-4 hour period of letting it sit out at room temp, I'll see it grow in bulk and then I should just use it when it seems to have grown a certain amount? 

Thanks for all of the help!

Sean

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 01:56:53 PM »
I have to cover my dough b/c at high altitude and a dry climate, my dough will dry out and form a thin skin (undesireable).   

I don't know what it's like where you are but in general I would say yes, cover it.   You can cover it with a bowl or a moist rung out cloth.  I generally put my balls into individual containers with a tight sealing lid (no air holes) and will proof them in their individual containers. 

Yes - JV says to use the balls when they have proofed up 75% (that is less than double).  I find that I get a better result when it's doubled BUT i'm using a HG bromated flour.  The HG and bromates help support the airbubbles and allow the dough to double or even tripled (so I've read - but haven't tried it).  I'm sure AT's will double just fine.  At some point, if the dough proofs or rises to much, it will collapse under it's own weight or when you go to handle it.  Thiis is not generally desireable as the dough as heading into being overproofed. 

Overproof is a bit subjective as well here so I'm just generally speaking.  After making a few hundred pies, you'll get the hang of it and find out what works for you in your specific location, using your specific recipe, method, etc.   There are at least 100 or more steps involved in pizza making and each one affects the other steps. 

So without the practice and experience, one of the hardest things to do is make pizza by following a recipe.  It's sort of paradoxical in nature.  No one recipe will work for every person trying it.  Only through practice, and more practice, continued learning, does one slowly come to understand what you are doing.   It is impossible to make great pizza by following recipes and without understanding.  Strive for understanding. 

In the meantime, we all must start somewhere and this forum is a great place to start.  Lots of recipes here.   :D

Chau

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2010, 02:47:00 PM »
Sean,

I think it is possible to succeed following a recipe but it depends on the recipe, whether weights rather than volume measurements are used, and how carefully one follows the instructions given in the recipe. I measure just about everything and I try to write up my recipes and instructions with as much precision and care as possible. I also usually only make one pizza at a time, mainly because I can't eat multiple pizzas but also because I am better able to control all of the variables for just that one pizza. That also makes it easier to remember everything I did and to make my writeups easier.  But, as Chau, points out, that is no guarantee of success. Usually, when problems arise, it is because the person makes substitutions or doesn't have all of the right ingredients or tools to practice the recipe, or the wrong tools or ingredients are used, or the person simply doesn't understand some of the principles or doesn't understand their purpose and significance. Sometimes the changes might have required changes in the recipe and/or the way it is practiced. Often I can fix the problem is enough accurate detail is given by the user.

I know you mentioned earlier about the timing of the introduction of the yeast into the dough making process. I did not address or comment on this matter head on at the time because you are after a roughly two-day fermentation and you were planning on using hand kneading. However, I found that delaying the introduction of the yeast into the dough making process can extend the window of usability by several days in some cases. However, to do this usually requires that the water be cold, that no formal autolyse or similar rest periods be used, etc. I discussed the delayed yeast method in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251 and, more specifically, in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33253.html#msg33253, where I discussed a test where I compared early and late introduction of the yeast. I should hasten to add that the results using the two methods might be the same or similar but the timing should be pushed out for the case where the yeast is added late in the dough making process.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2010, 03:47:31 PM »
Peter is right Sean.  You can make a good pizza provided the author posted detailed instructions and that you followed them exactly.  Even then as he said it's not guaranteed.  Even following the recipes exactly, having/using a different kind of oven can change things up.

But the main point I wanted to share is that if you want to become a good pizza maker or if you want to learn how to make the pizza you like instead of being tied to someone else's recipes.   Then start paying attention to what you are doing.  Ask yourself and others lots of questions.  Try to figure out why and what you are doing.  What happens if you change this or that?   Maybe just stick to recipes for now, but don't get too comfortable there.  Read, practice, and ask questions.

No matter how closely I followed a recipe and I've tried many of them, I never got close to the intended result mainly b/c of the environment I live in.  Being at high altitudes and a dry climate, I had to adjust my hydration ratio, yeast amounts, and ferment times.

Anyways, all this is beside the point.  I bake up a pizza for lunch and here are some pictures of the dough so you can compare. 

Dough to the left was just taken out of the fridge after 1.5 days of cold ferment.
Dough to the right is the same dough proofed up at 84F (in my garage) for 2 hours.  Dough has doubled in volume.

Pic 2: what the bottom of the dough looks like after coming out of the bowl.  If you were using a clear container, this is what it would look like from the bottom.

Pic 3: stretched out dough ready to be topped and baked.

Chau

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 11:09:00 AM »
Peter and Chau,

You guys are right... I think that it's going to take a lot of time and experimentation to get this happening the right way.  For now, I'll use the recipe quite literally, but over the coming weeks and months, I should be able to do more and more of this. 

Also, Peter I think your idea of making smaller batches might not be so bad.  I plan to be cooking for myself and a few friends, but now that I can get a full 18" pie, I think I can scale it down a little bit so we just have a bit of leftovers instead of a lot.

Anyway... I'll be keeping you guys posted with pics of the process.  I'm excited to finally try this!

Sean

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Plans for my first dough - Hand Mixed
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2010, 11:21:18 AM »
you have a pm.