Author Topic: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International  (Read 10309 times)

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Offline Pigslips

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2010, 08:12:04 PM »
You could.  You could also just throw one of the jars in the fridge as your back up starter and focus on feeding one jar. Or you could try my boiling water technique with the backup jar and see how much quicker you have a usable starter. >:DAnyway keep us updated!  -AZ PS are you still planning on doing a caputo run to seattle later this month?  If so I would be very interested in a bag.  thanks.

That's a great idea on your boilng water take, I'll try it.
Yea on Seattle, I leave on 9/28 get back on 10/01.  I'm driving.

Because of another posting I found out I'm doing my feeding-discard wrong! :'(
It should be A.) discard all but one cup.
                   B.) feed 1cup flour, 3/4 cup water
My culture has been ok structure wise but slower moving, this news should help.
;D
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 06:30:43 PM by Pigslips »
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Offline Pigslips

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2010, 09:15:10 PM »
Thursday morning, I'm going to call these done after feeding three hours ago.
This was my first time at this so I'm far from being a pro but some things I did worked well.
I only did one culture, I took Matthew's advice and cut back on the first flour and water.
I kept everything clean, used filtered water, tried not to use cross utensils.
I asked for advice and thanks to Matt things worked out textbook, thanks again Matt.
I read this forum and to all those who came before me thus saving me bigtime, thank you.

Gordon  :chef:

Update note from Ed; Yes, it matters (larger jar)  in more than one way but a  1 inch rise in your jar is probably close enough.  But that bigger jar will probably help your culture get too acidic and sooner or later it will be too acidic and the dough will not rise well.  Everytime you feed a culture in a 1 quart jar you have to discard part of it or the jar will overflow.  This helps to reduce the acidity.  With a bigger jar you just keep feeding it and each time you do it gets a little more acidic.
 
Ed
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 10:25:06 PM by Pigslips »
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Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2010, 11:46:44 AM »
Thanks for posting your responses from Ed, that is very helpful.

It makes me wonder though how one can create a bigger batch of starter (like a bakery would) without making the environment overly acidic.

Offline Pigslips

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2010, 05:40:16 PM »
Thanks for posting your responses from Ed, that is very helpful. It makes me wonder though how one can create a bigger batch of starter (like a bakery would) without making the environment overly acidic.

I think what Ed thinks is that I have this big jar and never throw out any. He said; "With a bigger jar you just keep feeding it and each time you do it gets a little more acidic."  So I've read that bakeries and such have to feed several times a day thus using up alot of starter.  In other words it's not the size of the jar, it's how much you use and not allow acid to build up.  Hope this helps.  :chef:
“Pizza is a lot like sex. When it's good, it's really good. When it's bad, it's still pretty good.”

Offline Matthew

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2010, 05:45:02 PM »
Thanks for posting your responses from Ed, that is very helpful.

It makes me wonder though how one can create a bigger batch of starter (like a bakery would) without making the environment overly acidic.

The starter is fed & used so regularly that it doesn't have time to become over acidic.  Most bakers who use starters use a tiny bit of fresh yeast as insurance whether they are willing to admit it or not.

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2010, 06:04:36 PM »
Most bakers who use starters use a tiny bit of fresh yeast as insurance whether they are willing to admit it or not.


Matt,

That is a common practice, an example of which I noted in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.msg69016/topicseen.html#msg69016.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2010, 06:18:54 PM »
Matt,

That is a common practice, an example of which I noted in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.msg69016/topicseen.html#msg69016.

Peter

Peter,
You've got a crazy memory!  I was part of that thread & didn't remember it up until now.  I was very confused myself on starters at that time, my starter was around a month old then.  I'm sure you'll find that thread too ;D

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2010, 06:41:50 PM »
Matt,

I tend to have a good memory for words that people use in posts, including my own, so that enables me to find old posts faster when I use the forum's search feature. For example, the original post where I discussed the Sullivan Bakery and its use of IDY with its sourdough starter was back in 2006 at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3839.msg32101.html#msg32101 ;D. In that case, I remembered that the baker's name was Travis.

You certainly ain't confused about starters anymore. You have become a superstar :chef:.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 06:48:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2010, 10:16:36 PM »
Quote
Because of another posting I found out I'm doing my feeding-discard wrong!
It should be A.) discard all but one cup.
                   B.) feed 1cup flour, 3/4 cup water
My culture has been ok structure wise but slower moving, this news should help.

Is this everyone's common practice?  I have not been feeding my starter a cup of flour at a time, I think I'd go through so much flour that way.

I get a pretty good rise adding 1/4 cup flour and 75% as much water to my starters, that seems to work pretty well, but if I'm going about this wrong I'd like to correct it.


Offline Matthew

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2010, 05:46:09 AM »
Matt,

I tend to have a good memory for words that people use in posts, including my own, so that enables me to find old posts faster when I use the forum's search feature. For example, the original post where I discussed the Sullivan Bakery and its use of IDY with its sourdough starter was back in 2006 at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3839.msg32101.html#msg32101 ;D. In that case, I remembered that the baker's name was Travis.

You certainly ain't confused about starters anymore. You have become a superstar :chef:.

Peter

Thanks Peter,
I went back & read some of my posts when I was a newbie & got a good chuckle.  I even asked Bill at one point if he had ever mixed 2 different starters together. :-[

Matt

Offline Matthew

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2010, 05:50:42 AM »
Is this everyone's common practice?  I have not been feeding my starter a cup of flour at a time, I think I'd go through so much flour that way.

I get a pretty good rise adding 1/4 cup flour and 75% as much water to my starters, that seems to work pretty well, but if I'm going about this wrong I'd like to correct it.

There's nothing wrong with that at all.  I routinely feed my starter 100g of total flour & water unless I'm trying to build them up to make a sponge.

Matt

Offline Pigslips

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2010, 10:26:48 PM »
Question:  will any flour work for feeding?   ???
“Pizza is a lot like sex. When it's good, it's really good. When it's bad, it's still pretty good.”

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2010, 12:38:08 AM »
I think I recall reading somewhere that your starter can become accompanied to a diet.  IE, when swapping from Rye to white flours, one should to it in parts over the course of a week or so to make sure the culture doesn't die off.

If you are using white flours though, I think you can pretty well substitute any other white flours interchangeably.

Offline scott r

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2010, 03:56:56 AM »
This may be conventional wisdom, but I have had great luck going between rye and white flours without any issue at all (certainly no dying off).   One thing is for sure, starters definitely love rye flour!   

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2010, 11:19:55 AM »
They also love a shot of pineapple juice in leiu of water every now and then, its a surefire way to get the yeast happy it seems.

Offline Fernando

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2011, 07:33:59 PM »
Hi, I've ordered an Italian Culture from Sourdo and it haven't arrived on time.
Now, I'm trying to contact Ed or anyone from the website and nobody is answer me. (I already sent them 3 e-mails)
Any suggestion what should I do? Anyone know if can I ask them to send to another place or ask refund?
Thanks

Fernando

Offline jimd

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2011, 07:54:10 PM »
I think that Ed travels a fair amount, and selling the starters that he has collected is not likely a f/t endeavor. When I purchased two starters from Sourdo several years ago, it took Ed a week or two to respond to an email inquiry, but he did respond. I know you must be anxious to get started, but I would be surprised if Ed does not respond.


Offline Fernando

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2011, 08:08:39 PM »
I get it. I will probably won't get this starter soon. Because I'm from Brazil and my friend went to USA for a holiday. And then I ordered these starter to ship to my friend's hotel. But before that, I'd asked Ed about if it would arrived between "x" days.
But now my friend is already back and without my starters.
I'm not sure what can I do? Can I ask for refund?
Thanks for your answer.

Fernando

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2011, 12:23:11 AM »
I bought Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International and have a few questions from those here that have worked with these.  1. Which of the two did you like the best?  Did you find one of them easier or harder to work with than the other?  2.  From reading here I would think it would be better to activate one culture at a time? 3. Does it matter which flour to use or whether it should be high gluten or not?  I’m reading “Sourdough tips” from King Arthur flour and this looks to be good advice, comments?  http://www.kingarthurflour.com/tips/sourdough-tips.html  ok all thanks




One thing to keep in mind about sourdough cultures...

They all adapt to your available yeast strains and bacteria after about two weeks and no longer have many of the properties of the propagated strain that you purchase. After 2 weeks you have a sourdough culture that you could have made yourself.

Winter wheat flours have a lower protein level, but have a higher grade of protein. For this reason, winter wheat is better for longer fermentations as the higher grade protein has a better fermentation tolerance.

Brian Spangler
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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2011, 01:40:24 AM »
Brian, while I consider myself a pretty religious NY 'slice' kind of guy, and I feel like sourdough is, for the most part, well outside of that realm, I have noticed on some of the sourdough crumbs I see here/elsewhere, that they have a creamy character. I do practically worship good naan, which has it's own lactic acid/scorching heat/high char going on, so maybe I might enjoy some bacterial action in my pizza dough.  Not a lot, though.  I lived down the street from Amy's Bread for about 6 years, and, although neighbors/friends talked about it in hushed tones, it was too sour for me.

Anyway, I've been contemplating a starter.  I've googled it on multiple occasions.  It seems like there's countless ways to approach it and none appear to be foolproof.  How would you approach creating a starter for the first time?

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2011, 01:57:28 AM »
Brian, while I consider myself a pretty religious NY 'slice' kind of guy, and I feel like sourdough is, for the most part, well outside of that realm, I have noticed on some of the sourdough crumbs I see here/elsewhere, that they have a creamy character. I do practically worship good naan, which has it's own lactic acid/scorching heat/high char going on, so maybe I might enjoy some bacterial action in my pizza dough.  Not a lot, though.  I lived down the street from Amy's Bread for about 6 years, and, although neighbors/friends talked about it in hushed tones, it was too sour for me.

Anyway, I've been contemplating a starter.  I've googled it on multiple occasions.  It seems like there's countless ways to approach it and none appear to be foolproof.  How would you approach creating a starter for the first time?

First off, start with organic rye flour and water.... that's it! Organic rye is recommended for two reasons. 1) organic because there is more live yeast strains and 2) rye has A LOT of food for the yeast to consume, which promotes activity.

Feed your started at least twice a day at 12 hour intervals. Start with equal parts rye flour and water. Take 50% of the water and flour mixture and mix it with 100% flour and water. For example, if I take 1 kilo of rye flour and 1 kilo of water, I need 500g of the flour/water mixture (starter) also added to the formula. Toss the remaining flour/water mixture. Once the culture becomes active, you are always tossing away starter unless you find someone that wants a new child, just like yours.:)

Temperature is key as sourdough likes temperatures around 78 degrees. If you keep your room, water and flour at this temp, everything will be more predictable and consistent.

Once you feed your starter with a ration of 100% rye flour and 100% 78 degree water everyday, you will notice it becoming very active after about 10-14 days.

Once you notice that your starter is starting to crack or cave-in on itself at the 12 hour mark, you can now start adjusting to 100% wheat flour.

When my starter is at full steam, we feed it with 10% starter. Your own environment will dictate how much starter you need to get your new feeding to full ripeness at the 12 hour mark.

You mentioned that you do not like sourdough too sour. Neither do most bakers:) Amy is an old friend of mine and I have always enjoyed her bread and thought of it very well balanced in the lactic/acidic acid levels. I haven't had it in about 8 years, so things might have changed.

To promote more lactic (creamy acid) as opposed to acidic (vinegary), two things help promote it. Higher hydration and warmer temperatures. Likewise, colder temps and lower hydrations promote acidic acids. Lots of bakeries make the dough and then proof the dough overnight in retarding units. The retarding promotes the acidic acid, which leads to the sourness that most people THINK they want. Most bakers, however, think the acidic acid masks the true flavor of the wheat.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 02:07:15 AM by sfspanky »
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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2011, 02:43:42 AM »
That's phenomenal.  Thank you for taking the time to type that out.

To be honest, maybe it was the time of day that I got there, but every time I went to Amy's the only options were the heavily flavored breads like the rosemary and the olive versions, so that probably played a part in my less than stellar opinion of sourdough.

Now that I think about it, I do love Jewish rye, which is always traditionally sour, so maybe I'm not as anti-sourdough as I previously thought I was.

Thanks, again, for the instructions.  I might not take the leap tomorrow, but it will be soon, and, when I do, that will be the method I'll use.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2011, 03:06:36 AM »
Now that I think about it, I do love Jewish rye, which is always traditionally sour, so maybe I'm not as anti-sourdough as I previously thought I was.

Rye is a different beast all together. Rye wants to be sour when fermented with sourdough culture! Jewish Rye is one of my favorite breads of all time.
Brian Spangler
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2011, 10:38:34 AM »
Great advice from sfspanky on the starter, here's another good source...http://www.breadtopia.com/make-your-own-sourdough-starter/
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foolishpoolish

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2011, 11:44:10 AM »
Quote
To promote more lactic (creamy acid) as opposed to acidic (vinegary), two things help promote it. Higher hydration and warmer temperatures. Likewise, colder temps and lower hydrations promote acidic acids. Lots of bakeries make the dough and then proof the dough overnight in retarding units. The retarding promotes the acidic acid, which leads to the sourness that most people THINK they want. Most bakers, however, think the acidic acid masks the true flavor of the wheat.

At the risk of sounding like a geek, it's a little more complicated than that. Granted, the whole "high hydration/warm temp" fermentation has become a fairly widely adopted rule-of-thumb in sourdough-baking.
Carefully controlled temperature and feeding regimen can also bias the population dynamics of the culture in favor of yeast (although they will still be outnumbered by lactobacilli by at least 100:1) which is why IMHO, if you want a milder tasting sourdough, I'd recommend feeding with greater frequency and with higher inoculation (not necessarily your storage starter but whatever portion you've set aside for making dough).

Higher hydration and warmer temperature are favoured by bacteria period. Lactic acid is pretty much guaranteed as a product of any sourdough fermentation. However, there's no DIRECT correlation between hydration/temperature and ratio of lactic/acetic products. Without getting too far into it, there are
lactobacilli which ferment and produce lactic acid only and those which ferment, producing lactic acid AND acetic acid (or ethanol) (and some which switch behavior depending on conditions!). Substrate (and co-substrates: fructose in particular) is the key factor - more so than hydration or temperature. Hydration and temperature affect, among other things, enzymatic activity and thus availability of substrate. Mentioning rye for a moment, with its pentosans (and thus a source of pentoses), which can have a big impact on the heterofermentative pathway (in this case fermenting 5 carbon sugar producing acetic acid or ethanol* in addition to lactic acid).

While acetic acid in high concentration may well overpower the "true flavor of wheat", it is also a volatile acid (unlike lactic acid) and it has been proposed that in smaller concentrations can be conducive to more complex flavor/aroma in the final result (as can ethanol). Lactic acid, on the other hand, is just "sour" (acidic)...although less stringent than acetic. Personally, I dislike overly-lactic starters/doughs but that's more an issue of taste than anything.

Side Note: When a starter has been left to to ferment too long, the "nail varnish remover" odour one might detect is a result of the esterification of acetic acid with ethanol: ethyl acetate, the same substance found in some glues and nail polish removers.

All that waffle aside, there is no (easy) way of knowing for sure which lactobacilli (or other LAB) and strains of yeast you have in your cultures. Getting familiar with how the starter responds to feeding etc. is very much a hands-on affair. Finding the optimum regimen for your particular culture is, at least partly, a matter of experimentatio and, of course, taste.

*I may be wrong about the details of pentose fermentation. I vaguely recall reading there being some reason why one product (acetic or ethanol) occurred to the exclusion of the other...but I might also be imagining it....if so I apologise!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:32:50 PM by foolishpoolish »