Author Topic: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International  (Read 8283 times)

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Offline sfspanky

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2011, 03:46:58 PM »
My experience does not bear this out. I have had the Ischia and SF cultures active for years. I use both regularly, and they continue to produce flavors that are very different - both in the finished product and in the raw culture itself. If you are correct, they should be the same.

The math behind the yeast reproduction also suggests that local yeast will not take over an established healthy culture under normal circumstances given the huge difference in concentrations.

Craig

Well, I can assure you that I am correct.

Are you using the exact same formula for both cultures, including the same flour, etc.? Any variances will produce different results.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2011, 04:10:44 PM »
Well, I can assure you that I am correct.

Are you using the exact same formula for both cultures, including the same flour, etc.? Any variances will produce different results.


For the cultures, yes, exactly the same. I'm not the only person who has noticed this. BillSFNM made a similar comment in his recent Slice interview:

"I have five strains of starter and they all can make great pies. Each has distinctive flavors and are most active in different temperature ranges."

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
This topic has been hotly debated here. For example:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10188.msg92050.html#msg92050

The deal comes down to this: if you have a healthy starter culture with a population in the billions, the doubling rate of any local interloper would have to be so much greater than the doubling rate of the starter culture that it is mathematically impossible in my lifetime for the locals to come close to taking over. This assumes a well-fed, happy, healthy starter culture. The cultures from sourdo.com are in many cases hundreds of years old that are highly resistant to local contamination.   



Offline sfspanky

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2011, 04:56:03 PM »
This topic has been hotly debated here. For example:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10188.msg92050.html#msg92050

The deal comes down to this: if you have a healthy starter culture with a population in the billions, the doubling rate of any local interloper would have to be so much greater than the doubling rate of the starter culture that it is mathematically impossible in my lifetime for the locals to come close to taking over. This assumes a well-fed, happy, healthy starter culture. The cultures from sourdo.com are in many cases hundreds of years old that are highly resistant to local contamination.   





I certainly don't want to get into a debate on what others experience and believe. I have debated with people on this topic for almost 20 years and my experiences are what form my opinion on this topic. I don't want to get into I'm right, your wrong, etc. That being said, here is an example of my experience -

Years ago, a few colleagues and I exchanged starters that we had all created from scratch in our bakeries. I was in Oregon, they were in San Francisco and Santa Cruz, CA. We all fed each others starters for about 6 months and then the day before I flew down, we all made bread from each other's starters, along with our own starter. Same formula, same flour, etc. We discovered that each persons bread tasted exactly alike. All the bread made in my bakery with all 3 different starters tasted the same, all three from SF tasted the same, etc.
I think there are too many variances for a culture to not change. Flour used has different wild yeast strains, your local has different yeast strains in the air and the bacteria available from person to person and local to local are all different.

Just my 2 cents from experience and what fellow colleagues have also noticed. Maybe baking hundreds of loafs everyday makes more of a difference. Dunno. I have baked maybe 20 loaves of bread at home, but i've made hundreds of thousand, if not millions, in bakeries.

Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2011, 05:04:59 PM »
Brian,

I greatly admire you; we are very fortunate to have you contributing here.

I think the difference here is that local cultures captured from scratch are a crap-shoot. They can be very sensitive to temps, pH, and the toxicity of metabolic by-products from other organisms. The cultures I am talking about are very powerful and can thrive in a wider range of conditions. I'd be happy to do the math if anyone wants to venture a guess for the following variables:

At Time = 0, in 1 liter of starter there are:

x = number of starter organisms
y = number of local invaders

t = number of hours for starter culture to double
u = number of hours for invaders to double

z = my remaining life expectancy in hours :-)




Offline sfspanky

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2011, 06:54:37 PM »
Brian,

I greatly admire you; we are very fortunate to have you contributing here.


Just wait... I might end up annoying you

Seriously though, thanks for the kind words. It's a great community and I really enjoy this sight. So many people here care so much and share their knowledge and experiences. What's not to like about it?

BTW - great write up on SliceNY.com today. Congrats! Your pizzas look fantastic.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Italian cultures from Sourdoughs International
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2011, 09:31:47 PM »
My experience does not bear this out. I have had the Ischia and SF cultures active for years. I use both regularly, and they continue to produce flavors that are very different - both in the finished product and in the raw culture itself. If you are correct, they should be the same.

The math behind the yeast reproduction also suggests that local yeast will not take over an established healthy culture under normal circumstances given the huge difference in concentrations.

Craig

I am perhaps one of the newer pizza/bread makers here with even less experience with starters.  In the past year, I have at one time, maintained and used 5 different starters myself.  A wild yeast cultured captured from flour bought locally, one made from soaked raisens, 3 different starters received from various members including the camaldoli & ischia starters.  I have started, fed and maintained several of the starters side by side and without a doubt they have produce distinctly different taste and have different leavening effects.  Although I no longer used the starter I captured locally, I did become so familiar with it's taste that  I could pick it out in a side by side comparison with pizza made with a different starter.  All were also fed with the same AP flour bought locally.  Although I don't make this a routine, I have even gone as far as stirring different starters with the same spoon and have not noticed any contamination.   This was in part an experiment to see if I could contaminate a starter and in part due to my lazy nature.  I am unscientifically under the persuasion that different starters can be maintained side by side without fear of contamination.   Just wanted to share my experience. 

Chau
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 09:35:24 PM by Jackie Tran »