Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 41439 times)

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #100 on: December 24, 2010, 12:56:32 PM »
Chau, that looks hot to trot on this end....your crumb shots always look very good at their worst and incredible at their best.

What is it exactly that you were looking for that failed to meet your expectations?

The Bufala does look good....no browning on it, so the fat content must be spot on.

I'd hit that pie any day of the week! Great stuff as always from you. --K   :chef:

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2010, 02:05:07 PM »
Thanks for the nice words PB.  I am perhaps my toughest critic and my worse enemy.    From my poor memory, this dough was a slowly fermented dough with a small amount of IDY.   I wanted it to have a bit more character in the leoparding or charring department and was a bit disappointed they didn't pay me a visit this time. 

I was pleased that I was able to lower the hydration and dry out the crumb a bit, so a move in the right direction.   I failed to knead this dough enough and therefore really didn't develop the gluten sufficiently.  I know the crumb may not show that but I baked his twin in the MBE and the spring was not there as it should.  The doughs opened up way too easily, more so than ideal to me. 

I must believe I can make a perfect NP pie in the home oven but sadly I am not there yet.  I imagine a pie with a soft, light, & aerated crumb with just the right amount of moistness - like a good fresh warm bread ought to be.  With just a thin shell of crust adorned with a modest amount of char/leoparding.  There are many uncertainties for me at this point in time.   Sometimes to the point that I do not honestly know if I will ever reach my goal.  Maybe it doesn't have to be perfect, but enough for me to honestly say that I have done the best I can with what I have.  That this is as good as it gets.  I so want to be there, but am not yet.   :(

I do not know if I can achieve such a pie with caputo 00 alone or if it requires a companion flour.   I do not know if it's my lack of ability in working with 00 flour.  I do not know if it is my lack of a WFO that has been the source of many unsuccesful attempts.   I do not if it is my lack of skill, knowledge, or understanding that has stumped me thus far.  With so many unknowns, this is my struggle but I refuse to give up hope and must press on.   

Chau
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 02:25:47 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2011, 12:37:09 AM »
Probably my closest effort yet in a home oven setting.


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2011, 04:21:44 AM »
WOW !! love the CRUMB !! they look perfect... was this made in the BUP ?
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2011, 06:53:25 AM »
WOW +1. Unbelievable. What flour was used on this one?

John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2011, 07:33:07 AM »
Probably my closest effort yet in a home oven setting.

Have you cooked this exact dough in the MBE yet?  Looks like a stellar result for any oven.
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2011, 08:53:30 AM »
A lovely pie, but how did it Taste?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2011, 11:35:25 AM »
WOW !! love the CRUMB !! they look perfect... was this made in the BUP ?

Thanks guys, I appreciate it!   Yes - mixed in BUP.  I find it too time consuming to hand knead high hydration low protein floured doughs. 

WOW +1. Unbelievable. What flour was used on this one?

John

John this one was made with 100% AP flour.  An accidental pie.  This dough was destined for a french baguette experiment.   Dough was really too slack during the dividing and balling stage for a baguette and decided to turn the dough into pizza dough.   Consequently it opened up beautifully like real NP dough.  Made one tiny baguette which turned out crappy, but the pies were decent. lol

Have you cooked this exact dough in the MBE yet?  Looks like a stellar result for any oven.

Made 2 pies.  The first one was cooked in the MBE.  The bottom burned a bit but it had a bigger and airier spring to the rim.  I thought I had overfermented the dough  b/c of the burning but forgot that I had added 1% sugar to the recipe since it was suppose to be an experimental bread formulation.   I figured I could control the burning on the bottom a bit better in the home oven, plus the dough opened up so nice I figured if there ever was a dough that should be tested in the home oven, it was this one.  Glad I did.  Next time though, no sugar and MBE baked!  Gene, I thought how several of the crumb pics look like those Verasano pies you posted recently.  :P

A lovely pie, but how did it Taste?

Ate pretty good.  The crumb was tender and moist, soft, with a slight chew.  Like how I think a NP pie should taste.  I topped it with some mediocre sauce and old bufala cheese and had no basil.  Not my favorite crust but was acceptable to my standards.   :-D

A better crust for me would be the same dough but baked out longer to get a crispier crust on rim and bottom.   

Chau

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »
Beautiful crust on that pie Chau. You never cease to impress.

Proves my point that you can do great things with AP flour.

What was the cook time - 3.5 min?

Craig
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2011, 02:12:28 PM »
Beautiful crust on that pie Chau. You never cease to impress.

Proves my point that you can do great things with AP flour.

What was the cook time - 3.5 min?

Craig

Thank you Craig.  It's really hard to estimate the bake time using the home oven and broiler method.  I think the pie gets about 1 min on the stone and then turned to rim the cornicione against the broiler.  I'm guessing around a 2.5m bake but that may not be accurate. 

The best pies I've made have been 75/25  00/HG.   This really got me to thinking about your comments (and other members) about AP flour.  Once I get my technique down, I will do a shoot out between caputo and AP.  How close of a result can I get to caputo?   I think Larry mentioned that the results get closer as the length of fermentation is extended, or something like that.   

Right now caputo cost me 6x more than AP flour.   If the results are pretty close, I may just be making pies with AP BUT flour is pretty cheap compared to tomatoes and cheese so caputo may be worth it after all. 

Chau
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 11:46:47 PM by Jackie Tran »


foolishpoolish

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2011, 09:55:29 PM »
Bloody hell Chau! - that pie is incredible.  Crumb, cornicione, everything. I think you've pretty much hit it spot-on. 
Regarding kneading/mixing time and gluten development - they're not synonymous. One can certainly lead to the other but I would say flour type and hydration (and salt levels) are far too significant as factors to make a direct correlation between the two. Two doughs developed using different kneading/resting regimens can achieve the same *level* of gluten development but have contrasting textures/crumb...it's less about "level" of gluten development but rather HOW gluten was developed.
But meh that's just more theory waffle... :D Whatever you're doing - it's working! Amazing!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2011, 12:43:06 PM »
Bloody hell Chau! - that pie is incredible.  Crumb, cornicione, everything. I think you've pretty much hit it spot-on. 
Regarding kneading/mixing time and gluten development - they're not synonymous. One can certainly lead to the other but I would say flour type and hydration (and salt levels) are far too significant as factors to make a direct correlation between the two. Two doughs developed using different kneading/resting regimens can achieve the same *level* of gluten development but have contrasting textures/crumb...it's less about "level" of gluten development but rather HOW gluten was developed.
But meh that's just more theory waffle... :D Whatever you're doing - it's working! Amazing!


Thanks Toby, that's high praise coming from you, King of the Nearlypolitan.   :D  I agree that simiilar levels of gluten development can be affected by many variables and achieved with different equipment and workflows.  I'm also learning now that how the gluten is developed "seemingly" makes a difference.  This is a huge gray area for me as there is a lot here I do not understand...yet. 

Do you have any good sources or reading materials that discusses how gluten development affects the end product?  How gluten should be developed for best results? Are there good books that cover this topic specifically? 

Thanks,
Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2011, 03:26:02 PM »
Chau - I have always wanted to buy this book, but have never pulled the trigger. Supposedly, there is 30 page section on flour and a ton of info on the science of gluten and fermentation.

John

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2011, 03:32:47 PM »
Chau - I have always wanted to buy this book, but have never pulled the trigger. Supposedly, there is 30 page section on flour and a ton of info on the science of gluten and fermentation.

John

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Thanks John, Nina recommended that book to me recently.  It seems to get nothing but good reviews.  I wonder if any other members have this and might give us a quick review.

Chau

foolishpoolish

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2011, 01:22:06 AM »
Ditto what John said. I have the AB&P book and yes it basically covers the course material taught at the SFBI. The first chapter or so in the bread making section covers mixing techniques and the effects of intensive, short, improved mixes.
The book is quite big and not cheap esp. if all you want is info on bread (it covers pastry and sugarcraft as well).

You can get a good idea of the various approaches and history of mixing dough (but please bear in mind this is for making bread rather than pizza) in this excellent 3 page article covering the BBGA class taught by Lionel Vatinet (not to be confused with Bertinet!):

http://modern-baking.com/bread_pastry/mixing-methods-making-1109/index.html

Note: it requires registration but I believe it's free.



foolishpoolish

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2011, 01:26:34 AM »
Didier Rosada mentions the techniques in this SFBI newsletter from 2007:

http://www.sfbi.com/FileUpload/files/SFBINewsSUM07.pdf

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2011, 03:03:12 AM »
Thanks Toby.  Good read.  That has already helped explained a lot of things I have been putting together on my own.   

Chau
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:21:30 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2011, 03:08:14 AM »
Didier Rosada mentions the techniques in this SFBI newsletter from 2007:

http://www.sfbi.com/FileUpload/files/SFBINewsSUM07.pdf

Toby - This was fantastic. Thanks for the link. It sheds light on the correct things I am doing, and the wrong things I am doing in some pizza workflows. Everyone who uses the Tartine Bread method will also find this a very interesting read.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2011, 09:13:32 AM »
As Lydia mentioned to the forum back in 2007, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5478.msg46229/topicseen.html#msg46229, there is actually a Part 1 to the Didier Rosada article on how to develop a formula, at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/SFBINewsWI07.pdf. Another good SFBI article by Didier Rosada, on dough strength, can be found at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf. Throw in Rosada's articles on the use of preferments at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, and the material on baking at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/index.html, and one has a very nice little library at only the cost of printer paper. I would imagine that the Tartine Bread book by Chad Robertson also dovetails nicely with the other writings mentioned above.

What is also not generally known is that several of the forum's dough calculating tools at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html can also be used for making, modifying and formulating bread doughs as well as pizza doughs. For this purpose, one would use the Dough Weight option.

BTW, Jeff Yankellow, who is mentioned in the article referenced by Toby at http://modern-baking.com/bread_pastry/mixing-methods-making-1109/index.html#, was also formerly with the SFBI.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2011, 11:27:36 AM »
Chau,

Since this is your thread, I hope you donít mind me posting this here. 

I was reading about sfspanky (Brian Spangler) and saw some of his comments he made on Slice.  He recommended using the autolyse method when making dough and also posted: more than beyond 2% salt inhibits the gassing power of the yeast as well as acid production.

http://www.seriouseats.com/user/profile/Brian%20Spangler

If you click on more comments by Brian Spangler you can also see what else he posted.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 11:29:47 AM by norma427 »
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