Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....

[Jackie Tran]

Wu, I don't think I answered your question properly in the post above.  I may have had some thoughts in mind that I wanted to get out so I wasn't really clear.

Overfermentation, in my experience does not lead to a dough being hard to stretch.  Actually the opposite, especially if working with starters.  The acids will break the gluten down and cause the dough to be more slack.  But as Scott123 has mentioned elsewhere, it's hard to overferment a dough.  Even when a dough has proofed up to the point of collapsing, it can be reballed and may not be overfermented yet.    Hopefully he will see your post and join in.  I haven't had time to look into this matter myself, so that's all I'll say. 

Overfermentation, does cause a dry crumb especially if using starters.   So if the dough is tough to open especially if it's not thin yet, then it is likely due to overgluten development relative to your hydration levels rather than excess acids of overfermentation.   If you applied the same kneading techinique, time, stretch and folds, & fermentation protocol to both doughs (75% 00 vs 75% HG), then I would say that the HG blend's gluten was likely overdeveloped as you suspected. 

Looking at your technique, I would say that it would be tough to overdevelop the gluten, but again it's hard to make that call unless I have the dough in hand.  You are right in that the line to proper gluten development is fine and requires a keen sense of touch and feel to know.   Even with your outlined technique, if you are using HG flour, hydration to low relative to the flour's protein, add cold fermentation (I know you aren't but just as an example), add any extra reballing, or just a few too many turns, baked to long, etc, etc.  All these steps can add up and throw the balance off.  I myself don't always get it right either. 

As you close in on your preferred flour blend and fermentation protocol, hone your skills and senses, you'll notice the slight changes in the dough more and more.  It will practically tell you what you have to do next time around to fix the problems.  I won't be able to give you the answers you are looking for but more or less ideas to think about. 

As far as what I am doing now, I hand knead for smaller batches.  Today, I had to make 2 nine ball batches (2250gm), so I used the bosch mixer to do the mixing.   I found that when mixing the large batch vs a 2 ball batch in the mixer, the mixing times were quite different.  I had to mix 3 minutes in the bosch to get a similar dough compared to a 1 min mix for the 2 ball batch. 

Can you clarify for me which of the crumb or pizza pics you've provide is the 00 blend versus the HG blend? 

[wucactus1]

Ill just have to continue to experiment, and experiment...its the only real answer, huh.  Im going to dive further into the whole deal on monday, doing another set, this time perhaps experiment with kneading times.  Whats odd though is that both doughs were really soft in the hands...especially the 00 yet its still not stretching out to 12"...it would seem that if over kneaded the dough wouldnt be so slack...oh the mysteries of kneading and dough.
The crumb is from the 00(75)/hg pie with 5% starter.

[Jackie Tran]

Wu I didn't think the  00 dough was overkneaded.  Just the Hg one since it sound like it resisted opening fully.  And yes, a dough that has too much gluten built into will still feel soft in the hand.  You'll only know it when you go to open it, by the look of the crumb structure, and the dryness of the crumb if baked out well.  Again, I think your short bake time for the HG pie probably masked any excess gluten development that was there.  

And yes, experiments lead to experience.  Only one way to gain it as far as I know.

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Wu I don't generally work with ounces but rather grams.  By my scale, I got 9 3/4 oz = 276 gm.  I'm not sure but 9.8 ounces is close to 9.75 ounces correct? 

If so, then yes 275gm should easily stretch out to a 13" pie.   My dough is pretty slack and wet and I will often get a sub 230gm dough ball to stretch out to 11".  250-260gm is the norm for a 12" NP pie I believe.  So if the 00 pie was hard to open as well then it too was overdeveloped OR you balled really late in the game and didn't allow enough time for the gluten strands to relax before opening.  I don't think you did that you maybe you did? 

Chau

[wucactus1]

As for the 00 maybe I did ball too late in the game...I balled both to where they would have 5 hours to proof and relxa.  The hg was looking great, holding its shape and growing well, but two hours in the 00 was flatter than a pancake so i pulled them out and did 2 more stretch and folds to get them back to shape...This probably over did it, but they were so flat...when you look at commercial doughs they are anything but flat...I want a dough that holds its shape, but isnt over kneaded.

[Jackie Tran]

Having finished the bake in the wfo last night, I decided to prepare some dough for bread to be baked this morning.  Instead of my usual HG flour, I decided to use the new caputo flour I got in last week and see if I can make a decent loaf of bread with caputo.  It's been awhile since I've made bread with caputo.

I got up early this morning and became inspired by Pizza Napoletana's post found here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14384.msg143694.html#msg143694

Instead of bread in the wfo, I got some new ideas and decided to turn the dough into pizza dough.  I baked these up for breakfast this morning and they were the best NP pies I have made in the home oven.  Definitely will be trying this dough in the wfo next time.

1st 2 pics are of the same pie and was 181gm, 2nd pie was 200gm. 

[dellavecchia]

As for the 00 maybe I did ball too late in the game...I balled both to where they would have 5 hours to proof and relxa.  The hg was looking great, holding its shape and growing well, but two hours in the 00 was flatter than a pancake so i pulled them out and did 2 more stretch and folds to get them back to shape...This probably over did it, but they were so flat...when you look at commercial doughs they are anything but flat...I want a dough that holds its shape, but isnt over kneaded.

From past experience, reballing late in the game always makes for a tougher stretch. The suppleness is gone. Develop the gluten more in the beginning with Caputo, and you should not see pancake shapes to the balls - that being said they will flatten out more than hg flour.

John

[dellavecchia]

Great job Chau. They look really puffy and lively for such small panelli.

John

[JConk007]

Very Nice work !! easier with no pressure right ? what was the oven temp? How did the party go ? you were up early eh?
I prefer a bit smaller also 240-260 max
Glad you are enjoying the new oven!
John

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks JJ (John and John)  . I could tell this dough was going to be fantastic after the bulk.  When I make the dough right, I can get a small dough ball to really puff up.

Jconk, these were done in the home oven and not the wfo.  I did try in the wfo before these but the dough just wasn't right. I think I had the heat right but the dough was off, so the wfo NP pies were okay.  Good but not up to standard.  These home oven pies were much better.  I have some ideas on how to make the dough better now, so we will see next weekend.

The party was great.  Only 3/4 of the people showed so I had extra dough.  They went in the freezer and I'll bake a few up next week to see what I get.

Chau

[wucactus1]

Thanks John for the advice.  I think Im going to make up a 2 ball batch tonight again using 75/25(00/HG).  Adjust my kneading accordingly.  Im going to use a younger starter to try and avoid the dryness that may come from it and use slightly bit less starter to ward off any potential of over fermentation.  I am going to stick with 65% Hydration though as I feel any lower and the 25%HG wont be happy, though caputo loves 58-60/62 range.

Chau your pies look awesome coming out of the HO.  It seems as though you cook yours a little paler than what I like. Is there a reason for this? I feel if I go this pale It becomes a floppy Neo pie, I guess I prefer a hotter environment so I get a nice crisp on the bottom that holds shape, yet is not burnt.
How big did you stretch out each pie?  What were the temps on your stone.  I dont have an Instant read thermometer, so I had to adjust by working out different preheat systems and then go by intuition between bakes on whether or not to turn the broiler off between pies or leave it rolling.

Ps
you better watch your back...your pies look good and all, but im gaining on you.(aesthetically I actually prefer your HO pizzas as opposed to your WFO...what do you prefer?)

[Jackie Tran]

 Wu, you're cracking me up dude.  Thanks for saying the pies look awesome.  These pies were a break through for me.  It was a new dough method and I'll be applying it to the wfo next week to see what I get.  

Gaining on me huh? I'll even help you out do me.  How's that?    Concerning hydration, etc, etc.  I don't usually go by what others are doing per se.  I do use other ppl's methods as guidelines for testing, but I do what the dough requires even if it goes against traditional thinking.  

For example, I have use 100% caputo 00 flour at 62% hydration upto 68% hydration making very soft and pliable doughs.  I'll let you guess at which end the above pies were.  

I like a darker pie like a New Haven style pie, but those are my hybrid pies.  I have lately been fascinated with the challenge of the NP style.  Without going all the way to Naples, I want to see if I can reproduce what the experts are claiming.  Guys like marco, Omid, Scott R, Matthew, John, Roberto, etc.  Is the style really what ppl say it is?  Not just make a pie with the looks, but the right textures, and taste.  

I was recently inspired by a new member Pizza Napoletana's HO pies, the finest I have seen.  To me they are reminiscent of the pizza on the caputo pizzeria bag.  The rim is very light in look and color with little charring.  So that is why I baked these out this way, otherwise I normally would have tried to get more charring.  

Concerning my HO pies versus my WFO pies.  My WFO pies are mostly Hybrid pies similar to what you are making.  These HO pies are my efforts at trying to reproduce a NP pie.  My LBE and MBE pies are also hybrid pies so comparing that to my WFO pies would be a better comparison.  My WFO hybrid pies are really good right now, but I will also be employing this new dough method to that blend to see what I get as well.  

I have only tried to make NP pizzas in my WFO a few times now with so so results.  I'll usually get the wfo HOT and try a NP pie, then let it cool down a bit to my hybrid pies.  My results have been mediocre b/c the dough was correct.

If your goal is UPN or Motorino's, then they are NP and likely using 100% 00 and not a blend.  What you are describing and doing fits more into the Hybrid category leaning more towards NP than NY.  So you may want to consider that.  

My pies tend to retract a bit with the bakes I think.  The first pie is 181gm stretched out to about 10.5-11" and ended up around 10" post bake.  the 2nd pie was 200gm and stretched to 11" or so and baked up a little less.  It was also slightly thick in the center, so next time I'll take it to a full 12" to see what  I get.  

My stone temps on these were 650 or so, next time I'll go with 700, then 750.  I didn't want them to bake too quick in the home oven so I lowered the stone to the 2nd rack from the broiler.  Too quick of a bake and it's just a gummy mess.  

Get a IR thermometer.  It's been an invaluable tool for me.  I prefer to use substitutes around the house when I can instead of always buying new equipment but the IR thermometer is indespensible.  

Look wise, I really prefer texture over looks.  If I can have both then great.  If I can't then, I go for texture first, looks 2nd. Right now I prefer the texture of my wfo hybrid pies over these NP.  I'm keeping an open mind though as someday I may prefer my wfo NP pies more.  They just are 2 different pies.  One is NY and the Italian.  Both can be great in their own right.  

Chau

[wucactus1]

Ok have taken some of the suggestions into consideration and after watching the pizzapasqule videos on you tube and many others I began making the dough.  I started last night at 11:30.  The dough is a 65% hydration, 75/25(00/hg) dough.  I stirred 75% of the flour with everything for 2min(timed) until it gathered to a mass, waited 5 then added the rest, let it rest 15 then I began Handkneading the dough using my knuckles like in the video until the dough came together smooth and somewhat pliable.  The dough wasnt as  resilient as pasquales, but Im operating within a higher hydration where as his is probably at 60-62%.
I choose to lower the % of starter from 5 to 4 to decrease my chances of over fermenting and creating a dough that is dry.  Im also going to allow the dough plenty of time between balling(which will be done ever so gingerly) and baking to relax and loosen back up...would you suggest 5 or 6 hours?
Hopefully all this turns out well, if so maybe Ill try a 100% 00 dough

links to videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/pizzaiolopasquale#p/u/28/fhIKYLzNTsk

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrMYLg_9Tpc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrMYLg_9Tpc</a>

[Jackie Tran]

Good luck with the new protocol Wu.  Just keep in mind that higher hydration doughs will ferment faster so don't just go by time.  Keep an eye on the dough, smell it, poke/feel it.

Yes 5-6 hours is sufficient for proofing.  It really depends on the particular dough.  It will relax some in that time, but if you've overdevelop the gluten, then it's unretractable.

Good luck,
Chau

[wucactus1]

Thanks for the heads up on fermentation.  Just for reference I have attached three pics of the dough as it is now.
A top and bottom picture.  I dont think the dough is anywhere near ready, as the bubbles and voids arent large yet and the dough still smells as if it were just made.

[wucactus1]

discount the rubberband...it fell off and i just quickly put ti back on not to lose it, it means nothing

[Jackie Tran]

Wu your dough looks great.  Despite what I said about the textural changes, you should employ a mature starter with a long fermentation (proofing) protocol a few times just to see what you get.  You may find that you like that type of texture much more than I do.

Chau

[wucactus1]

So Im going to make one pizza tonight and freeze the other dough ball after shaping(doingsome research this is what the najoritytrecommend).  After this I'll have plenty of pizza---2 in the freezer and then one dough ball. I probably wont make pizza for another week or so(who know this could change any moment inspiration strikes), but I do plan on trying a more mature starter, but I want to get my fermentation times and certain temps down first.
I thawed on of my HG/00 pies today and Im going to be devouring one for lunch today, so i'll take a pic of the crumb when I slice it and post it for comparison purposes.

[wucactus1]

Alrighty...I didnt end up freezing one of the doughs rather when balling them I decided to experiment with the handling.  I balled them both up, but giving one a considerable amount of attention...Incorporating more stretches and folds and bench rolling as well.  After this I decided to put one in the freezer to give it a chill and cool down(5min max in freezer)  and let the other sit out the whole time.  Ill let you guys guess which went in to the freezer as well as which was handled more during balling.
With that said both does when stretching behaved very similarly, actually they both were so slack that it didnt require much handling at all, more or less I floured them laid them on my peel and pushed them out gently moving the air to the edge, I then rather than slapped the dough picked it up with both hands and flipped it over and over until it reached 12".  To my surprise the dough actually stretched to 12" and didnt rip, yay for gluten, but the dough was still so slack and showed no sign of elasticity that I think I need to incorporate more kneading into the beginning stages or reduce my starter % to again wade off any chance of over proofing.  I suspect the overfermentation because of the shear size of the dough balls and ease of handling.  they nearly doubled in diameter and remained relatively at the same height.


Pics actually turned out really bad, so ignore this.  It was the most aesthetically pleasing pizza I have had...
crumb shots suck sry...
Needless to say this is the closest I have ever been to anything authenticly Neapolitan.  The dough was light and didnt sit heavy which enabled me to eat 1.5 pies(well that and the huge climbing workout I did).  The crumb despite me wretched cameras depictions was indeed moist and soft.  The cook times where descent at 1:20.  The only thing that I would change bake wise was that the stone wasnt really hot enough leaving not as much char as I like for underskirts, but you guys judge.  My next experiment for wednesday will be the same dough and timeframe, but with 2% starter instead of 4%.  Ill be flexible with the times though and if i need to bake earlier or later ill do so
Here

[Jackie Tran]

Wu, I agree - your latest pies are aesthetically pleasing.  What was it about them that you didn't like?  Was it the texture?  Was that off? 

My guess as to which one was in the freezer for 5 minutes is the 2nd pie with more pox.  I haven't been following your recipes lately so I'm not sure what was different about this batch.  Was it a different flour blend or different dough technique?

I have experimented with rough balling versus gentle balling and didn't notice much of difference either.  It does play a small different but not enough to outweigh some of the other major factors like, protein %, hydration ratio, time of fermentation, the way the gluten is developed, etc. 

Chau