Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....

[TXCraig1]

I tried Chau's patented technique. I have real admiration for Chau in getting those beautiful results - mine were not so good.

I agree, I tried it too ... not so good. JT's work is proof positive of what you can accomplish if you put your mind to it.

Craig

[Jackie Tran]

You guys are wayyy too kind.   You all keep me humbled and to be absolutely honest, I wish I could make pies that look like Toby's, any of the WFO guys including John's lastest typhoid fever pie, GB's, and TxCraig1's (esp the recent 12 pies thread).  I would only be so honored to be considered even remotely in the same playing field. 

I'm really just another guy tinkering around the home kitchen that likes to get on here and gab. Thanks for letting me do that. 

Now, I hope that with more testing I can get these pies to taste absolutely fantastic.  Then I'll really have something special.

Cheers,
Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Ok, after 3 weeks of making dough and trying everything imagineable...I finally made a pie with a decent amount of leoparding.   What's so cool about leoparding anyhow?  Heck if I know, i just like it. 

Here's the interesting thing about leoparding and heat that I noticed.  These 2 pies are made from the same dough with the same dough technique.   The first one was baked at 800 on quarry tiles.  I purposefully didn't stretch it out and left it thick.   Well I was so pleased and enamored with the look I spent a few minutes admiring it and taking a few photos. 

After stretching out the 2nd skin about 5 mins later.  I checked the temp of the quarry tiles and it read 900F+.  I said what the heck, these WFO guys are baking at 950 so it should be ok.   Well the bottom burned very quickly so I had  to pull it out after 20 seconds or less.  I notice the top was still somewhat raw.  I rimmed this one under the broiler in the usually fashion but got a different look.  I believe the very brief exposure to air cooled the rim off a bit and when it went under the broiler again, it gave more of that NY look.  The crust browned more and there was less spotting.  Interesting......

[norma427]

Jackie Tran,

Your recent experiments are interesting and the pies look great!    Would you mind telling what kind of dough formula you used for these pies?  I really like the leoparding.  How was the taste of the crusts?

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Thx Norma.  I like the leoparding as well, but wish I could get the big cat patterns like some of Toby's pies or some of the authentic wood fired pies.  I hope it's just an oven or heat issue.  Someday I'll find out. 

As far as the formula goes, I've been trying different flours, and different techniques.  This IDY I have now really seems so much more potent than my ADY or starters.  I've been having to learn how to regulate it's use and fermentation times.

Flour    100% AP flour
Water  69%
Salt     2%
IDY     0.05% (8h rm temp, 6h cold, 2h proof)

Dough was hand kneaded to full gluten developement (for experimental purposes).  Room temp ferment (76F) for 8 hours.  Then cold fermented for 6 hours. proofed for 2 hrs then baked.

I had originally intended this dough to room ferment for 8-10 hours total, but it wouldn't have made it that long.  I would have also skipped the cold ferment but I got stuck at work so I had to put this dough  to sleep to slow it down.   It was well fermented when  I got home, and divided and balled it cold out of the fridge.   Let it proof up for 2 hours and then baked. 

The crust/crumb:  It was quite good.  Very tender and moist with little chew.  Gave way to the teeth easily.  The rim on this one was quite airy.  It puffed up a lot and the rim had large voids in it.  If I'm being picky, it was a little wee bit doughy despite the puffiness. 

My wife who has told me on many occassions in the past, "I don't like those italian pizzas you make.  Can you make the NY pizzas", ate this one right up despite it's lack cheese.  She loves cheese.

I'm gonna attribute the very slight doughiness to the over kneading (over gluten development) and short cold ferment time.  I will try to tweak the texture by tweaking the kneading times and fermentation times next.  I may also start blending flours again, AP with my bromated HG flours to see what I get. 

Chau

[norma427]

Chau,

Thanks for giving your formula, ferment times and all the details!    They are great looking pies.

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma - you're welcome.  Someday I hope to get it right.   

I forgot to post pics of the undercarriage, and more crumb shots.  You can see the over gluten development I spoke about in these shots.  FWIW, I have yet to eat a real NP pie so I have no basis for judgement.  I can only say what I like and don't like.   I would love some feedbaack from the WFO guys.  Constructive criticism is much appreciated.  Guests, feel free to chime in as well.  Otherwise, I feel like I'm just talking to myself sometimes.  

Chau

[brayshaw]

Cracking looking pies Chau! Those toppings look as tasty as the crust! What were they?
Paul

[Jackie Tran]

Thx Paul.  I never know how these pies will turn out so I just was messing around and adding stuff.

1) home grown tomatoes  (my dad's), drizzle of OO, roasted garlic, gran padano parmesan.

2) Red sauce, sliced tomatoes, drizzle OO, roasted garlic, fresh rosemary. 

I was trying to make pizza bread of sorts. 

[brayshaw]

You did a great job Chau! I will try those for sure!

Paul

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Paul.      

Repeated with the same AP flour formula except I lowered the hydration to 67% to see if that would give me more leoparding or not.  It didn't seem to make a difference in the appearance but I noticed it in the crumb texture.  I also cut the IDY by half and that seemed to work better for the fermentation time frame of 12h.   These ended up going 14 hours bulk and a 2 hour proof.  I was fooling around with varying the bulk time to see what effect it has but not much.  These could have proofed a few more hours but mama was gettin' hungry.

1) Classic pie with cherry tomatoes.  Don't laugh but Trader Joes ran out of my preferred cream mozz, so I tried mascarpone.  It wasn't that bad actually.  Next time I'll skip the OO as it made it runny. 
2) White sauce, shrimp, and carmelize onions, & basil.
3) white sauce & arugala.   Friend introduced me to arugala over the weekend. It's pretty good stuff.  I alway thought it was a touch too fancy for me, but I actually like it.
4) New Mexico Green Chile Cheese bread

Tell me if you guys like the darker or lighter rim. 

[Jackie Tran]

Was going for a less holy rim this time.  Wanted smaller and tighter cell structure instead of those big voids.  Still got a few big voids but for the most part, I like the crumb structure on these better. 

Also the lower hydration gave more chew than I had last time.  I like the higher hydration dough better.  Gave way to the teeth more and I like that.  Like a McDonald's big mac, you don't have to chew it much. 

On my next go round with these, I'll go back to seeing if I can make these with caputo OO flour.  I only had a small amount left and have been saving it.   

[brayshaw]

Great job yet again I personally prefer the lighter rim, how bout you Chau?

[widespreadpizza]

JT,  re big spots.  It has been brought up before that the large spots are a sighn of overfermentation and are considered a defect to the masters in Naples.  You want them as small as can be.  The best looking pies to me have plentiful tiny char spots.  If you do want to get some big ones,  try a long bulk fermentation at room temp,  then divide/reball 4 or more hours before baking.  -marc

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Paul as always.  For now, I do lean towards the lighter rims and would like to see more dark and profuse black welts for a nice color contrast. 

Marc, thanks for the tip.  I have been trying that but without too much luck.  I'll  try again.  I baked these too early last night b/c it was getting late and my wife was giving me that I'm hungry feed me look. 

I have also read that the intense leoparding look is something that is undesireable to traditional NP pizza, a sign of overfermentation, and something we Americans enjoy looking at.  I'm not sure why I find them so fascinating.  Maybe it's b/c I haven't really achieved that look and I've become somewhat fixated on the challenge of it. 

I know that this is a tough question but can you recommend a yeast (type) and % along with some bulk and proof times?   Maybe just something that has worked for you?  I would really be appreciative.
It's possible that it's the lack of a WFO or the heat is off, but I don't think that is the issue.   

In this latest batch, the formula was ..
•   Water      259gm (54F)
•   AP flour                380gm (68%)
•   Salt      9gm-1.5tsp (2.4%)
•   IDY      1/32tsp-0.09gm-0.025%
•   Total      648gm

I am aware that my IDY amount is a bit on the low end.  I seemingly get too much activity from it and consequently had to decrease it.   I was at work so I could not monitor the dough more closely but it rose to more than double at room temps (75F) within 10 hours.  it ended up bulk rising for 2H more before i could divide and ball it and then proofed only 2 hours at 84F. 

Do you think if I kept with this formula and ferment regime, and increase the proof by another 4 hours or so i would see the pox? I'm open to any suggestions or help.   Why are these spots eluding me?

Chau

BTW, Marc what do you think about the current look of my pies?  Do any of them have that traditional look that is desireable?

[Jackie Tran]

Here are tonight's Pies. 

1) Same day dough.  White sauce, cheese, basil.  Stretched a little too thin.  It was okay.

2) 2 day cold ferment pie with minimal kneading.  Turned out better than the first.  I didn't stretch it as thin and it looks better too.    White sauce, mozz, Arugula, saute mushrooms, parmesan.  Texture was just as good as the same day.  The cold ferment didn't hurt it. 

3) Desert Pie :  Same day dough (AP flour).  Borrowed the idea from Dellavechia.   Without toppings, this thing puffed right up.  Topped with Nutella, marscapone cheese, glazed strawberries and blueberries.  I also ate it with a bit of cinnamon basil.  This one was over the top.  Next time, I will likely use fresh fruit. 

4) Made a 2nd dessert pie with a leftover dough (1/2 AP 1/2 HG).

[Jackie Tran]

A few obligatory crumb shots...

1) the arugula pie.

2) dessert pie.

3) 2nd dessert pie.

[satgan]

Great looking pies!!!
Bravo!!!!!!!

[dellavecchia]

Chau, you are a master. I am still trying to replicate your technique in the oven. These pics are inspiring. What are you going to do with yourself if you get a WFO?

John

[norma427]

Chau,

Your pies look fantastic! 

Norma