Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 41986 times)

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Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #200 on: June 21, 2011, 10:14:22 PM »
Sorry this batch used 4% starter as too 5% and was fermented the same time.  I also handled the dough hand kneading it just as pasquale did in the youtube videos for about the same length.  This gave me definetly more strength and development.  Enough to where the dough wouldnt rip when stretched, but not enough for elasticity, or the elasticity was lost during proofing/overproofing(?).  It took very little effort to stretch it out to roughly 13" where it then shrunk back to 12 when slid onto the stone.  I cant stress the fact that this dough was minimally handled when stretching and the slapping technique would have been far to excessive.  Was overproofing the cause of this or perhaps more initial kneading is "kneaded"!


Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2011, 05:58:54 PM »
Alright so under your advice I decided to make two different batches, one using a more traditional method of kneading/making neapolitan style pizza and then one using the tartine method.  The dough preparation/proofing got interrupted when life called/a friend and asked If I want to go look for some boulders down in tennessee and climb, an oppurtunity I couldnt pass up so I went.  because of this I had to shape the balls two hours early and put the dough in the fridge to not overproof.  So opposed to being at rt the whole time they went into the fridge for 9 hours and were baked 3 hours later than usually.  they sat out in 90 degree temps to proof for 1.5 hours before baked.
The Traditionally kneaded pizza was 64/5% hydration and the tartine was 70+1 or 2 due to the water needed on my hands for stretching. 2.5% salt on both and both were 250g balls.  The first pizza(underskirt picture) cooked perfectly!
The tartine method was a bust imo, but I will give it another shot.  The crumb shots are from the traditional method pie.  The crumb wasnt overly moist, but wasnt dry a bit more moisture would have been good.  The moisture loss could have happened from the fermenting process in the fridge where the dough seemed to have lost some water...?
anyway here are the pics and ill let you guys guess which was the tartine, the marinara or the marg...

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2011, 07:38:59 PM »
Beautiful pizzas Wu.  The leoparding is most impressive.  You bake those in your regular home oven, right?  What temperature do you bake them at? 

Tin Roof 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2011, 07:46:59 PM »
Nice job Wu.  I love that heavily pox'ed look.  I'd love to do that but haven't figured it out yet so I'll be hitting you up via PM or if you want to post in detail what you did so that I might study it more closely to get that poxed look.  

So the only difference between the 2 batches was the hydration?  All else was the same including the starter amount and proof time?  

If so, then I'll guess that the heavily poxed pie, the margherita is the tartine pie.  

Wu you also said that the crumb shots are from the traditional pie but yet you showed both crumbs of the marinara and the margherita.   So are both these crumb shots of the traditional method or is one tartine?  I see one of the crumb shots is from a marinara and the other from a margherita.  Unless you made multiple marinaras and marghertias.

If you thought the crumb of the traditional pie was a bit more dry than normal, that could have been due to the added cold fermentation.  I find that if I'm to cold ferment, I have to adjust the gluten development down a bit to compensate for the small amount of gluten strengthening effect the cold has on the crumb.  

Glad you did the experiment Wu.  I always learn something new from experiments that don't produce optimum results.  I too am experimenting with tomorrow's dough using a modified tartine method.  Actually closer to the LMB method.  I have been making some of my best doughs lately with this method.  

Chau
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 07:48:54 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2011, 08:58:37 PM »
That margherita is absolutely stunning. That's the real deal there. Wow! Way to go.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #205 on: June 25, 2011, 12:11:54 AM »
Tinroof-Thanks for the compliments, this pie was really good and I look forward to eating the other half, shamefully reheated tomorrow, but im sure it will be good!  As for the temps I have no Idea.  I have no ir thermometer, I just go by a series of steps that I have found to produce sub two minute bakes.

Chau-The two batches were different in a couple of respects.  One handling and the other Hydration.  When I say traditional I meant in the respect to kneading methods, not toppings.  The crumb shot was from the "traditionally" kneaded pizza as the tartine was a flop in the texture department, it tasted alright, but the margherita(poxed) was the star.  That other crumb shot of the marinara was from a previous bake and it slipped into the post accidentally.  That was from the pizzas before this bake and was also fairly successful.  The dryness was very subtle and may have occurred from the added gluten development, but I feel as the loss of water through excretion from the dough is the culprit, this definitively from the cold fermentation.  As for the tartine method, I think it failed because of a lack of gluten development, or maybe overfermentation, because the crumb was very non-existent, but both batches shared starter percent and time, and the traditionally handled dough puffed up as you can see.
As for the pox, this occurs from nothing more than a well kneaded dough and full/over proofing and some cold fermentation, I bet even two hours in the fridge would do it.  I have two doughballs left that I placed in the fridge.  Im going to bake them later this week, Ill post the pics so we can compare.

Tx-this means alot coming from the man will the acunto, pumping out some of the "most authentic" pizzas on the forum...Im still envious of your oven.  I just try to do the best with what I got.  An electric GE and a target stone!

parallei

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #206 on: June 25, 2011, 12:17:12 AM »
Those are amazing pies for a home oven....nice work!

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #207 on: June 25, 2011, 12:19:15 AM »
The way the cheese melted was kinda weird.  I used cilligine mozz balls(on sale at whole foods) halved and it resulted in these lumpy of 3/4 melted cheese.  It ate fine, but not preferred.  Ill cut them into thirds next time to try and prevent this. Other than that the marg was real good.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #208 on: June 25, 2011, 12:29:26 AM »
The way the cheese melted was kinda weird.  I used cilligine mozz balls(on sale at whole foods) halved and it resulted in these lumpy of 3/4 melted cheese.  It ate fine, but not preferred.  Ill cut them into thirds next time to try and prevent this. Other than that the marg was real good.

Have you tried tearing apart by hand?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #209 on: June 25, 2011, 12:32:39 AM »
I gave experimented with that and I find it's easier to portion out(I measure exactly how much) when you slice the olvalines, though I do think aesthetically it is better looking to tear it, maybe I'll try this with the small cilligine balls next bake one one pie and then cut it on the other


Offline mamasboy

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #210 on: June 26, 2011, 12:53:35 PM »
Hi everyone. I just joined the forums but I've been following this thread for a long time.

Chau, Wu - you guys have made some awesome looking pizzas! The pics from posts #185 (Chau) and #201 (Wu) are inspiring and I would love to try to reproduce your results. I am having a hard time understanding exactly how you're doing it though as I don't know all the acronyms and lingo. Would you be willing to dumb it down for me and tell me exactly what recipe you are using and how you are prepping and handling the dough? Sorry for being such a noob.

Much appreciated!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #211 on: June 26, 2011, 01:48:29 PM »
Wu, do you want to tackle this one?  ;)

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #212 on: June 26, 2011, 01:56:39 PM »
I am at work right now,(new job at whole foods!) I will definitely share my knowledge tonight but tran if you want to start out I can add an elaborate or just leave it to me!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #213 on: June 26, 2011, 02:18:21 PM »
I am at work right now,(new job at whole foods!) I will definitely share my knowledge tonight but tran if you want to start out I can add an elaborate or just leave it to me!

Have fun Wu.  ;D

Offline mamasboy

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #214 on: June 26, 2011, 07:29:13 PM »
Thanks guys. Maybe you don't have to dumb it down completely. I just lost track of specific recipe you used to get those results.

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #215 on: June 26, 2011, 08:42:33 PM »
Wow are those pies done in a home oven? How did you get that leapording?
Alrighty...I didnt end up freezing one of the doughs rather when balling them I decided to experiment with the handling.  I balled them both up, but giving one a considerable amount of attention...Incorporating more stretches and folds and bench rolling as well.  After this I decided to put one in the freezer to give it a chill and cool down(5min max in freezer)  and let the other sit out the whole time.  Ill let you guys guess which went in to the freezer as well as which was handled more during balling.
With that said both does when stretching behaved very similarly, actually they both were so slack that it didnt require much handling at all, more or less I floured them laid them on my peel and pushed them out gently moving the air to the edge, I then rather than slapped the dough picked it up with both hands and flipped it over and over until it reached 12".  To my surprise the dough actually stretched to 12" and didnt rip, yay for gluten, but the dough was still so slack and showed no sign of elasticity that I think I need to incorporate more kneading into the beginning stages or reduce my starter % to again wade off any chance of over proofing.  I suspect the overfermentation because of the shear size of the dough balls and ease of handling.  they nearly doubled in diameter and remained relatively at the same height.


Pics actually turned out really bad, so ignore this.  It was the most aesthetically pleasing pizza I have had...
crumb shots suck sry...
Needless to say this is the closest I have ever been to anything authenticly Neapolitan.  The dough was light and didnt sit heavy which enabled me to eat 1.5 pies(well that and the huge climbing workout I did).  The crumb despite me wretched cameras depictions was indeed moist and soft.  The cook times where descent at 1:20.  The only thing that I would change bake wise was that the stone wasnt really hot enough leaving not as much char as I like for underskirts, but you guys judge.  My next experiment for wednesday will be the same dough and timeframe, but with 2% starter instead of 4%.  Ill be flexible with the times though and if i need to bake earlier or later ill do so
Here

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #216 on: June 28, 2011, 08:39:59 AM »
I have not been neglecting the request for more information, juts hit a stream of bad look...my laptop charger and battery dies, so until then I will be hijacking my girlfriends computer.
But anyway an update on my pizza making before I begin...

I made two pizzas yesterday from two balls that I ended up freezing from the last batch(most recent pictures above).  I formed the dough and put them directly in the freezer, not allowing them to proof at room temp before hand, after a two days in the freezer, I moved them into the fridge where they spent another two days(experiment) and then pulled them out and proofed for 4 hours and then baked.
The dough handled and stretched very nicely and taste wise was good aswell, but this dough fell completely flat, literally in the oven spring department.  Both pizzas showed some leapording just as before, even the tartine method pie, more so than last, but the crumb was the densest I have ever made...reminded me of the vpn place we have in town...I almost purely replicated their dough...and If so i have figured out why the texture is so bad...the freezer.  Maybe I should have proofed the dough before it hit the deep freeze, but the majority said they turned good results from the method I utilized...I will probably never know because I think Im done with the freezer.
Sorry no pic, left my phone in the car on accident.

Alrighty now for the explanation.
I am going to attempt to explain the method used for above from beginning to end.  Chau if he has the time should attempt to do the same in the most detailed way possible...you, I, and everyone else, im sure would love it!

Formula-bakers percents(if you dont understand, search "bakers percents" and youll learn quick!)

100% flour-75/25 blend of 00 and High gluten flour(bouncer found at gfs in 25# bags)
65% water(cool, but not room temp)
2.5% sea salt(fine)
10% starter(a mixture of flour and water used to harvest naturally occuring yeast, search and learn if you dont know.)

Method:Non-tartine...for the tartione method check the tartine pizza thread
Measure out water and add to the bowl.
add the amount of starter, stir to disolve
add 75% of the flour...I add all the caputo, and stir until it somewhat comes together in a "batter"
rest for 5 minutes.
add the remaining 25% of flour(bouncer high gluten) slowly stirring to incorporated before you add the next bit.
once all the flour is added I get my hands dirty.
I put my hand in the dough and start scooping it around the bowl...sort of rolling it around the side of the bowl, using my right hand to guide the dough and then my left to turn the bowl. I do this for 10minutes adding the smallest bit of flour if I need too.
once the dough stops sticking intensely I dump it out on a lightly floured counter and do several stretch and folds, almost like the french kneading method, but softer...search on you tube.
After a couple of these the dough should be really smooth where I place it into a lightly oiled container to rise.  After A designated time I divide the risen dough and let it rest 5 minutes, then I ball the dough.  Tran has a great youtube video called how I ball dough...search it and watch!

How I am able to cook the pizzas in my home oven comes down to the frozen towel.  I trick my oven into thinking its cold and hence it gets hotter.  Normally after a preheat at 550 for 45 min. my oven would stop and turn off, only to return on every once and a while.  but what I do is wrap a damp rag(100% cotton) in aluminum foil and freeze it solid.  Then I take the frozen sleeve and put it onto the thermometer probe in the upper left corner of my oven. And I am able to switch to broil and it wont turn off until I turn it off.  This combined with the placement of my stone(the very top) is what mimics the intense floor and ceiling heat of a wfo.  I have been doing this for a while and have had no problems with the broiler, my probe or anything...just cracked one stone when a pizza inverted itself, but thats my fault.  You should try and if you have any questions pm me or leave them here.
About the leapording..It is great aesthetically to a small degree, but it can be somewhat of an eyesore imo when completely over done, for me I prefer the look that can bee seen in my reply(#198) of this post, to me this pizza aesthetically is great as far as crust goes, the marinara was getting sort of a little to poxy, but still decent.

st

Offline mamasboy

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #217 on: June 28, 2011, 10:29:16 AM »
Wu,

Thank you so much for this awesome, detailed explanation! I really appreciate it as I am sure it took a lot of effort to put it together. It filled in a lot of gaps for me.

My approach up until now has been a little Frankensteinish - piecing together recipes and techniques from all over the place without any confidence in whether my resting, proofing, refrigeration, and cooking times, along with my dough handling methods and cooking method were properly matched to my recipe percentages and if I actually had any chance of getting a Neapolitan style result in the end. Now I have something that has worked for someone else that I can use as a meaningful starting point to figure out what would work for me.

I will first need to figure out how to get some starter in Toronto. I'm not sure I want another pet but I would like to experience what starter would add to the dough over dried yeast. Once I get some I will try your method as prescribed and report back.

Some minor clarifications:
  • What is "bouncer" and "gfs"?
  • How long would you say you do your “several stretch and folds” for?
  • How long would you say your "designated time" is after which you would divide the dough?

Again, thanks a lot!

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #218 on: June 28, 2011, 10:42:36 AM »
sorry...
Bouncer is the type of flour i used.  it is an aMERICAN HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR MILLED BY BAY STATE MILLS OUT OF THE MIDWEST.
GFS(GORDON FOOD SERVICE) IS a restaurant depot/costco/sams club type of store where they sell products in bulk for restaurants and such.  GFS is open to the public and requires no joining fee.
I do the stretch and folds until the dough is no longer sticky(may still be tacky) and has some body to it.  Almost like sticky puddy...Look up vids on youtube.
The designated fermentTION TIMES i USED AND SUCH ARE IN MY REPLY Above the one that haS ALL THE PICS AND STUFF

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #219 on: June 28, 2011, 07:57:08 PM »
Wu,

In your discussion in Reply 216, I did not see where the salt was added.

Peter