Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread..... (Read 25863 times)

BrickStoneOven · « **Reply #40 on:** September 06, 2010, 08:23:11 AM »

The bake on the second pie looks dead on.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #41 on:** September 06, 2010, 08:42:13 AM »

Thanks guys & gal, I really appreciate the comments. They mean a lot to me.

John, you may not be that far off from replicating what I have done. IMO, heat is heat. If one member can do it, so should another member. If Toby can do it, so should I right?

After all, we are working with just 5 variables right? flour, water, salt, yeast, and heat. So why can it be so difficult at times.

I made a discovery last night that I posted in your thread...Reply #11.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11617.0.html

I have made it known that I have wanted to get those deep dark pox on the rim for awhile now. I accidentally did it once and hadn't been able to replicate again till last night in the above link.

Here's the first appearance for me. John this was a same day dough with starter. 6 hours from start to finish to be exact. Reply #228.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.220.html

I initially didn't suspect it was my setup b/c I haven't change it much really. It's been essentially the same. The only thing I have changed is the cooking medium and that's to show that it's not the stone. So I hope you haven't ordered that Primo stone yet John.

If you have no biggee, it's a decent stone.

Between the 2 occurances, I have tried playing with all the variables I could think of and no success. This was in excess of 3 wks of making dough. The dough that I posted in your thread is the same dough as dessert pie #2 above.
Apparently these d@mn pox marks have been escaping me is possibly a heat imbalance issue in my home oven. I have been preheating my home oven for under 30m or until the stone temp gets 850. There is really less than a 2.5" gap between the burner and the stone. All the heat is trapped up there. Up till now, I had assumed that a longer preheat time wouldn't make a difference, maybe it will.

My next move to see if my theory is correct is to get the stone even closer to the broiler and maybe increase the preheat times. Maybe 1.5", so that once the pie rises, it will rise right into the fire of the broiler. I hope that someday when I have a WFO and with proper fire/heat management, that I can enjoy just a straight bake rather than having to do all these oven shenanigans.

I'm sure the WFO's have their own peculiarities to learn.

Anyways, the point I'm seeing is that even at <2.5" clearance from the fire, a slight heat imbalance somewhere up there will create a different look. So my thought is this...manipulate the heat and we can manipulate/control the leoparding. Leoparding in my opinion has to do with fermentation and heat. I don't believe it is strictly cold fermentation, but fermentation in general or overfermentation to be more accurate. Again, my 1st experience with the pox is with a 6 hour dough.

So John, to get that authentic look in your WFO (and to avoid the pox), I believe it has more to do with heat than the hydration ratio or the cold fermentation process. IF I am right about it being a heat issue, that is high testament to the performance of your WFO. Simply awesome oven. You can take an overly fermented same day dough and with ultra high heat, you should have leoparding. To get a more authentic look (less pronounce leoparding), lower the heat.

So to duplicate with I have done in the home oven, you may try getting the stone closer to the fire. Again, I have been working with less than 2.5" clearance and even that hasn't always been enough.

A BIG DISCLAIMER HERE...
Folks do this at your own risk. Be aware that when playing with fire, there is a potential risk for burns, damaging your oven, burning your house down, and a potential lost of life.

I'm being serious here. I don't entirely encourage people to use the broiler technique either. I'm just saying this is how i've done it - that's it. I'm in the process of trying to get a small home made WFO built so I don't have to do these oven tricks.

The left side of my broiler burner sags a bit when operating during these bakes. I have just noticed it a few days ago. I don't know that it's always been like this or it is due to these oven tricks I've been using for pizza. It makes me uncomforatble though, that I may be damaging my home oven. So users beware of this.

Chau

Matthew · « **Reply #42 on:** September 06, 2010, 09:30:12 AM »

Chau,
First off, nice job!
I don't experiment much with my Neapolitan dough because I typically only make pizza on the weekend & have come up with a dough formula that offers what I think is a really good balance of sour flavor, texture, fermentation, extensibility, etc. The whole process is quite time consuming so I prefer to experiment with pizza/bread that I bake in my home oven (Teglia, focaccia, etc.) It really sucks to go through the WFO prep & then end with a bad batch of dough. You'll see what I mean when you start using a WFO.
That all changed last weekend when I decided I was going to come up with a formula to increase the sourness of my dough. I did this by increasing the starter to an amount typical of what I would use for an 18 hour 1st fermentation but let it go for 24 hours at a controlled temperature of 72 degrees.
I knew something was up when I started to ball the dough; it didn't feel the same. The smell was intoxicating in a really good way so I thought, let's see what happens. I placed the panetti in my dough box & let them proof for another 6 hours.
I prepped the oven so that it was blazing hot with a nice fire to the side licking the dome. I opened the first dough & knew right away that something was wrong. I slapped & pulled the dough to about 10" with a lot more effort than it typically takes, slid the dough on the peel & did the second stretch to about 13" with a slight overhang on the left & right side on the peel. I loaded the pizza & went to grab my turning peel so that I could heat it up a bit before turning the pie. By the time I got back I had some really crazy leoparding on the pizza & heard sizzling sound which I knew right away was the cheese which meant that there was a hole burnt into the pizza. I pulled it out & sure enough my overfermentation suspicion was confirmed. I stretched the rest of the dough with caution & forewent the second stretch & ended up with pies a little thicker than what I'm used to/like. Again, the leoparding was crazy, like I've never seen before. Long story short; the flavor was amazing but the dough was really difficult to work with. I am now completely convinced that the leoparding that you're looking to achieve is the direct result of overfermentation & high heat. No, there are no pics, I was too pissed off! Give it a shot if that's what your after.

Matt

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #43 on:** September 06, 2010, 09:50:25 AM »

Wonderful Matt. Thank you for the compliment and for your post - this confirms my suscipions now. I know that these 2 factors (heat and fermentation) have been brought up before. I believe there is a whole thread on it here for anyone wanting more information.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6214.0.html
I do want to say that Marc (widespreadpizza) has told me the same when I PM'd him.

Having thought that I was supplying both of these factors, especially since I was baking <2.5" under the broiler, these pox were still eluding me. For me it's one of those stupid things I just wanna be able to do to learn about it. It's the challenge of it and wanting to know more about it and possibly control it. This way when I eat pizza at a famous place or see pics online, I can confidently pinpoint the variables that causes that. It will expand my pizza knowledge and make me a bit more versatile. Thus my obsession with trying to attain that. I'm sure once I can achieve it, I'll be on to something else.

If I can get the oven built right, I think that I will be able to more easily attain that look if I wanted to. I may find that I don't like the texture or taste of an overfermented dough at all. But for now, I still want to learn about it.

I'm taking John's advice on freezing the dough and will provide an update in several days. I plan on repeating the experiment will decrease that gap even more down to 1.5" or less. Not sure I will be able to load a pie with that clearance.

I have done it with 2" but not less. I plan on making a same day dough and letting it overferment to compare to the frozen then thawed dough.

Should be interesting if i don't blow up my oven.

Chau

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #44 on:** September 06, 2010, 10:13:23 AM »

Chau,

You do keep a fire extinguisher handy, right?

andreguidon · « **Reply #45 on:** September 06, 2010, 10:52:14 AM »

Matt, have you ever tried adding some manitoba flour to the mix, so the dough doesn't rip so easy ? wen taking the VPN training Giulio talked to me in private about sourdough fermenting using 10 to 20% of manitoba flour, this helps the acid in the SD not to completely destroy the gluten.

Matthew · « **Reply #46 on:** September 06, 2010, 12:48:39 PM »

Quote from: andreguidon on September 06, 2010, 10:52:14 AM

Matt, have you ever tried adding some manitoba flour to the mix, so the dough doesn't rip so easy ? wen taking the VPN training Giulio talked to me in private about sourdough fermenting using 10 to 20% of manitoba flour, this helps the acid in the SD not to completely destroy the gluten.

Hey Andre,
No I have never tried. I used to purchase Manitoba Flour (Canadian Hard Western Spring Wheat) from a small local Mill just east of the city that produces some fantastic flours. Since I started making bread I've moved to using the same product but with additives (amylase, diastatic malt, etc).
Manitoba Flour seems to be an issue that causes a bit of confusion, most people substitute it for bread flour, HG flour, or strong bakers flour which is not the same thing. I have never used, nor do I have access to Caputo Manitoba flour but I image it's the same thing as CHWSW. If anyone has tried or is currently using "Manitoba Flour" milled in Italy I would be very curious to know the list of ingredients on the package.

Matt

andreguidon · « **Reply #47 on:** September 06, 2010, 12:59:03 PM »

i think its the same Matt, cause they also called it farina Americana... wen talking to the Italian's from 5stagioni here in Sao Paulo in a food show, they said all bakers in Italy call the strong flour farina Americana, and in the 50,60 and 70s if the American flag was not in the package they would not buy it... try something like that... unfortunately i have no access to this kind of flour, just the blue 00 5 stagioni and the 00 granarolo.

ponzu · « **Reply #48 on:** September 07, 2010, 12:39:17 AM »

JT,

Reguarding the heat balance issue. One thing that I noticed when i tried to use your broiler only method was that the stone surface temperature would rise quickly AND fall quickly when the thermostat shut the oven off . I think this was because the stone surface was the only part that was hot. The remainder of the stone hadn't come to temperature. The temperature of the stone is much more stable with my current fire brick oven set up, even when the heating element shuts off.

You might try and extended bake (not broil) at the highest temperature for a couple of hours and then crank the broiler just prior to firing your pizza. Other options would be a lower rack position with a row of firebrick under the stone to achieve same 2.5 inch gap in order to maximize thermal mass/stored heat.

What kind of wfo are you considering? I'm really looking at the Casa 36" from forno bravo. Tough to make an informed decision without the ability to test drive the various ovens.

AZ

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #49 on:** September 07, 2010, 10:31:18 AM »

Alexi, I plan on increasing the preheat times to see if there is a difference as I stopped timing the preheat times sometime ago. Yeah how long a stone takes to heat up and hold it's heat is dependant on its material. For these types of bakes I use my Primo stone or quarry tiles (2 layers) works well.
I'm not having any issues with the bottom heat, it's the top heat (even though I'm currently less than 2.5" from the heat source. The bottom of the pie is charring appropriately and there is good oven spring. Just the leoparding is missing initially, which tells me there is a lack of top heat if heat is indeed 1 of the 2 factors responsible for that extreme leoparding.

I'm pretty sure lowering the stone won't help my situation. I noticed that the leoparding appeared when the dough rose into the fire of the broiler. That tells me that I have to get the stone even closer to the broiler element to bring about the extreme leoparding. So close that the baked dough will/should rise almost right into the fire.

I did pick up a tip from PizzaBlogger from another thread along the lines of using the convection along with my high heat. It's quite possible that the convection will make a difference. I will test it out and post up in a few days.

As far as the WFO goes, I know very little about them. I'm just in the research mode right now. I would like to either build a small one from scratch or get a prefab one on a rolling cart such as member Thezaman. Of course, the real challenge to building one from scratch (and not using professional plans) is to have all the right components, and have it all come together correctly the first time. That is a huge feat, since there are usually things you find out at the last minute that weren't planned on. It's something that I wouldn't be able to get much help or advise on and likely something I would have to go about alone.

Chau

ponzu · « **Reply #50 on:** September 08, 2010, 12:42:36 AM »

Chau,

You're probably right about the stone heat being sufficient.

One way to check on the eveness of your stone temp would be to measure the temp of the bottom of your stone at cooking temp. If the whole stone hasn't come to temp the bottome might be very much lower temp than your top surface.

The only reason I suspect this is that when my broiler shut off with top heating only the stone dropped temperature very quickly implying to me that a lot of the heat was reflected from the broiler.

This might be important if the dough is cooling the stone after loading the pie. If that were the case you might not get enough lift on the cornicione which would increase your rim to heat source distance.
(Your cornicione looks pretty well expanded though. So who knows.)

Anyway its all in the name of leoparding science. Press on!

Alexi

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #51 on:** September 08, 2010, 09:23:16 PM »

I gota feevah, and the only prescription is more leopahding!

This afternoon's bake...

Thanks Dellavechia! You were right! Cold fermented dough, frozen, and thawed did the trick.
I also decreased the gap between the hearth and broiler to 1.5" AND ran the convection fan (Pizzablogger).

I tested this new setup with a fairly fermented same day dough, and no spots. So I would say the biggest factor here is the cold fermentation with freezing and thawing.

Forgot to say that pie #2 in reply #35 is the SAME dough. Only difference is that it was kneaded a bit less than this leopard pie and that one was cold fermented for 2 days where as this one was kneaded more and then cold fermented 3 days, frozen 1, and thawed in the fridge another day, so 5 days total.

ponzu · « **Reply #52 on:** September 08, 2010, 11:02:35 PM »

Problem solved. Nice job and nice pox!

How was the taste comparison of the 2 pies?

AZ

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #53 on:** September 08, 2010, 11:12:13 PM »

Quote from: ponzu on September 08, 2010, 11:02:35 PM

Problem solved. Nice job and nice pox!

How was the taste comparison of the 2 pies?

AZ

Ahhh Alexi, good question. One of the first times that I actually truely appreciated the taste of a cold fermented pie. The 5 day cold ferment was not sour but did have a complexity to it which was noticeable over the same day dough. For me I had to pay attention to it when tasting just the rims alone and did several taste test to notice it. Of course with toppings and sauce, that difference becomes (for me) very negligible. The texture of the 5 day dough of course was more sourdough bread like while the other one had a lighter texture. Both were pretty decent though. Here's a crumb shot of both to see the difference.

1&2 is the 5 day CF
3 same day dough

ponzu · « **Reply #54 on:** September 08, 2010, 11:23:39 PM »

Visually it appears that there is much more structure and oven spring to the CF dough. The same day appears more bread like.

Amazing how much apppearance correalates with flavor.

AZ

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #55 on:** September 08, 2010, 11:32:23 PM »

Quote from: ponzu on September 08, 2010, 11:23:39 PM

Visually it appears that there is much more structure and oven spring to the CF dough. The same day appears more bread like.

Amazing how much apppearance correalates with flavor.

AZ

Yes - visually that first pic is a bit deceiving. 1, it's blurry and 2, It looks to me very light and airy. I should have taken more pics of the same day dough.

CF doughs (for me) always give a bit more of a chew and SD texture which is expected. I have noticed though that difference is a lot less in my NP short bakes compare to a NY-elite style pie. For that style, I much prefer the texture of a same day dough.

As an example of this, I kneaded the cr@p out of the dough in reply #22. Then on top of that I did some stretch and folds to trap air and the resulting crumb shows that. But b/c of the short bake time and low protein of the AP flour, that crumb was very soft, moist, and easy to eat. Meaning it had very little chew to it. I was surprise since i had really worked that dough.

Pictures as we all know can be very deceiving. Sometimes you can take 3-4 different looking crumb shots off of 1 pizza.

dellavecchia · « **Reply #56 on:** September 09, 2010, 08:46:04 AM »

Nice job Chau! That looks like it came out of a WFO. Excellent crumb as well. Is is amazing that freezing helps with leoparding.

John

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #57 on:** September 28, 2010, 08:11:28 PM »

Finally got the electrical fixed and the oven is working again. I had one caputo doughball left in the fridge from the first batch out of the new Bosch, so naturally I had to sacrifice him to the oven gods.

BrickStoneOven · « **Reply #58 on:** September 28, 2010, 08:24:49 PM »

Chau I bet those spots put a smile on your face. Nice job.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #59 on:** September 28, 2010, 08:30:33 PM »

Thx David. They did. I had to laugh. I spent nearly 3 wks chasing them down sometimes making dough twice a day. Today I wasn't even looking for them and they showed up.

. I have the magic formula now.