Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 46428 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2010, 12:00:58 PM »
Chau,

Thanks for giving your formula, ferment times and all the details!  :)  They are great looking pies.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2010, 12:43:21 PM »
Norma - you're welcome.  Someday I hope to get it right.   :-D

I forgot to post pics of the undercarriage, and more crumb shots.  You can see the over gluten development I spoke about in these shots.  FWIW, I have yet to eat a real NP pie so I have no basis for judgement.  I can only say what I like and don't like.   I would love some feedbaack from the WFO guys.  Constructive criticism is much appreciated.  Guests, feel free to chime in as well.  Otherwise, I feel like I'm just talking to myself sometimes.   ::)

Chau
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 09:44:39 PM by Jackie Tran »

brayshaw

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2010, 01:22:44 PM »
Cracking looking pies Chau! Those toppings look as tasty as the crust! What were they?
Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2010, 02:12:18 PM »
Thx Paul.  I never know how these pies will turn out so I just was messing around and adding stuff.

1) home grown tomatoes  (my dad's), drizzle of OO, roasted garlic, gran padano parmesan.

2) Red sauce, sliced tomatoes, drizzle OO, roasted garlic, fresh rosemary. 

I was trying to make pizza bread of sorts. 

brayshaw

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2010, 04:08:39 PM »
You did a great job Chau! I will try those for sure!

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2010, 10:59:59 PM »
Thanks Paul.   :P   

Repeated with the same AP flour formula except I lowered the hydration to 67% to see if that would give me more leoparding or not.  It didn't seem to make a difference in the appearance but I noticed it in the crumb texture.  I also cut the IDY by half and that seemed to work better for the fermentation time frame of 12h.   These ended up going 14 hours bulk and a 2 hour proof.  I was fooling around with varying the bulk time to see what effect it has but not much.  These could have proofed a few more hours but mama was gettin' hungry.

1) Classic pie with cherry tomatoes.  Don't laugh but Trader Joes ran out of my preferred cream mozz, so I tried mascarpone.  It wasn't that bad actually.  Next time I'll skip the OO as it made it runny. 
2) White sauce, shrimp, and carmelize onions, & basil.
3) white sauce & arugala.   Friend introduced me to arugala over the weekend. It's pretty good stuff.  I alway thought it was a touch too fancy for me, but I actually like it.
4) New Mexico Green Chile Cheese bread

Tell me if you guys like the darker or lighter rim. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2010, 11:03:40 PM »
Was going for a less holy rim this time.  Wanted smaller and tighter cell structure instead of those big voids.  Still got a few big voids but for the most part, I like the crumb structure on these better. 

Also the lower hydration gave more chew than I had last time.  I like the higher hydration dough better.  Gave way to the teeth more and I like that.  Like a McDonald's big mac, you don't have to chew it much.  :-D

On my next go round with these, I'll go back to seeing if I can make these with caputo OO flour.  I only had a small amount left and have been saving it.   :-\

« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 11:08:15 PM by Jackie Tran »

brayshaw

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2010, 04:08:27 AM »
Great job yet again ;D I personally prefer the lighter rim, how bout you Chau?


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2010, 09:06:26 AM »
JT,  re big spots.  It has been brought up before that the large spots are a sighn of overfermentation and are considered a defect to the masters in Naples.  You want them as small as can be.  The best looking pies to me have plentiful tiny char spots.  If you do want to get some big ones,  try a long bulk fermentation at room temp,  then divide/reball 4 or more hours before baking.  -marc


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2010, 09:33:29 AM »
Thanks Paul as always.  For now, I do lean towards the lighter rims and would like to see more dark and profuse black welts for a nice color contrast. 

Marc, thanks for the tip.  I have been trying that but without too much luck.  I'll  try again.  I baked these too early last night b/c it was getting late and my wife was giving me that I'm hungry feed me look.  :)

I have also read that the intense leoparding look is something that is undesireable to traditional NP pizza, a sign of overfermentation, and something we Americans enjoy looking at.  I'm not sure why I find them so fascinating.  Maybe it's b/c I haven't really achieved that look and I've become somewhat fixated on the challenge of it. 

I know that this is a tough question but can you recommend a yeast (type) and % along with some bulk and proof times?   Maybe just something that has worked for you?  I would really be appreciative.
It's possible that it's the lack of a WFO or the heat is off, but I don't think that is the issue.   

In this latest batch, the formula was ..
   Water      259gm (54F)
   AP flour                380gm (68%)
   Salt      9gm-1.5tsp (2.4%)
   IDY      1/32tsp-0.09gm-0.025%
   Total      648gm

I am aware that my IDY amount is a bit on the low end.  I seemingly get too much activity from it and consequently had to decrease it.   I was at work so I could not monitor the dough more closely but it rose to more than double at room temps (75F) within 10 hours.  it ended up bulk rising for 2H more before i could divide and ball it and then proofed only 2 hours at 84F. 

Do you think if I kept with this formula and ferment regime, and increase the proof by another 4 hours or so i would see the pox? I'm open to any suggestions or help.   Why are these spots eluding me?

Chau

BTW, Marc what do you think about the current look of my pies?  Do any of them have that traditional look that is desireable?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2010, 11:09:41 PM »
Here are tonight's Pies. 

1) Same day dough.  White sauce, cheese, basil.  Stretched a little too thin.  It was okay.

2) 2 day cold ferment pie with minimal kneading.  Turned out better than the first.  I didn't stretch it as thin and it looks better too.  ;D  White sauce, mozz, Arugula, saute mushrooms, parmesan.  Texture was just as good as the same day.  The cold ferment didn't hurt it.  :-D

3) Desert Pie :  Same day dough (AP flour).  Borrowed the idea from Dellavechia.   Without toppings, this thing puffed right up.  Topped with Nutella, marscapone cheese, glazed strawberries and blueberries.  I also ate it with a bit of cinnamon basil.  This one was over the top.  Next time, I will likely use fresh fruit. 

4) Made a 2nd dessert pie with a leftover dough (1/2 AP 1/2 HG).

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2010, 11:13:42 PM »
A few obligatory crumb shots...

1) the arugula pie.

2) dessert pie.

3) 2nd dessert pie.

Offline satgan

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2010, 07:13:39 AM »
Great looking pies!!!
Bravo!!!!!!!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2010, 07:59:12 AM »
Chau, you are a master. I am still trying to replicate your technique in the oven. These pics are inspiring. What are you going to do with yourself if you get a WFO?

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2010, 08:11:20 AM »
Chau,

Your pies look fantastic!  ;D

Norma
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2010, 08:23:11 AM »
The bake on the second pie looks dead on.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2010, 08:42:13 AM »
Thanks guys & gal, I really appreciate the comments.  They mean a lot to me.  ;D

John, you may not be that far off from replicating what I have done.  IMO, heat is heat.  If one member can do it, so should another member.  If Toby can do it, so should I right?  ;D After all, we are working with just 5 variables right?  flour, water, salt, yeast, and heat.   So why can it be so difficult at times.  ??? :P

I made a discovery last night that I posted in your thread...Reply #11.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11617.0.html

I have made it known that I have wanted to get those deep dark pox on the rim for awhile now.  I accidentally did it once and hadn't been able to replicate again till last night in the above link.

Here's the first appearance for me.  John this was a same day dough with starter.  6 hours from start to finish to be exact.  Reply #228.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.220.html

I initially didn't suspect it was my setup b/c I haven't change it much really.  It's been essentially the same.  The only thing I have changed is the cooking medium and that's to show that it's not the stone.  So I hope you haven't ordered that Primo stone yet John.  :-D  If you have no biggee, it's a decent stone.  

Between the 2 occurances, I have tried playing with all the variables I could think of and no success.  This was in excess of 3 wks of making dough.  The dough that I posted in your thread is the same dough as dessert pie #2 above.  
Apparently these d@mn pox marks have been escaping me is possibly a heat imbalance issue in my home oven.   I have been preheating my home oven for under 30m or until the stone temp gets 850.  There is really less than a 2.5" gap between the burner and the stone.  All the heat is trapped up there.  Up till now, I had assumed that a longer preheat time wouldn't make a difference, maybe it will. ???

My next move to see if my theory is correct is to get the stone even closer to the broiler and maybe increase the preheat times.  Maybe 1.5", so that once the pie rises, it will rise right into the fire of the broiler.   I hope that someday when I have a WFO and with proper fire/heat management, that I can enjoy just a straight bake rather than having to do all these oven shenanigans.   :P  I'm sure the WFO's have their own peculiarities to learn.

Anyways, the point I'm seeing is that even at <2.5" clearance from the fire, a slight heat imbalance somewhere up there will create a different look.  So my thought is this...manipulate the heat and we can manipulate/control the leoparding.  Leoparding in my opinion has to do with fermentation and heat.  I don't believe it is strictly cold fermentation, but fermentation in general or overfermentation to be more accurate.   Again, my 1st experience with the pox is with a 6 hour dough.  

So John, to get that authentic look in your WFO (and to avoid the pox), I believe it has more to do with heat than the hydration ratio or the cold fermentation process.  IF I am right about it being a heat issue, that is high testament to the performance of your WFO.  Simply awesome oven.  You can take an overly fermented same day dough and with ultra high heat, you should have leoparding.  To get a more authentic look (less pronounce leoparding), lower the heat.  

So to duplicate with I have done in the home oven, you may try getting the stone closer to the fire.  Again, I have been working with less than 2.5" clearance and even that hasn't always been enough.
 
A BIG DISCLAIMER HERE...
Folks do this at your own risk.  Be aware that when playing with fire, there is a potential risk for burns, damaging your oven, burning your house down, and a potential lost of life.  

I'm being serious here.  I don't entirely encourage people to use the broiler technique either.  I'm just saying this is how i've done it - that's it.  I'm in the process of trying to get a small home made WFO built so I don't have to do these oven tricks.  

The left side of my broiler burner sags a bit when operating during these bakes.  I have just noticed it a few days ago.  I don't know that it's always been like this or it is due to these oven tricks I've been using for pizza.  It makes me uncomforatble though, that I may be damaging my home oven.  So users beware of this.  

Chau
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 08:45:44 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Matthew

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2010, 09:30:12 AM »
Chau,
First off, nice job!
I don't experiment much with my Neapolitan dough because I typically only make pizza on the weekend & have come up with a dough formula that offers what I think is a really good balance of sour flavor, texture, fermentation, extensibility, etc.  The whole process is quite time consuming so I prefer to experiment with pizza/bread that I bake in my home oven (Teglia, focaccia, etc.)  It really sucks to go through the WFO prep & then end with a bad batch of dough.  You'll see what I mean when you start using a WFO.
That all changed last weekend when I decided I was going to come up with a formula to increase the sourness of my dough.  I did this by increasing the starter to an amount typical of what I would use for an 18 hour 1st fermentation but let it go for 24 hours at a controlled temperature of 72 degrees.
I knew something was up when I started to ball the dough; it didn't feel the same.  The smell was intoxicating in a really good way so I thought, let's see what happens.  I placed the panetti in my dough box & let them proof for another 6 hours.
I prepped the oven so that it was blazing hot with a nice fire to the side licking the dome.  I opened the first dough & knew right away that something was wrong.  I slapped & pulled the dough to about 10" with a lot more effort than it typically takes, slid the dough on the peel & did the second stretch to about 13" with a slight overhang on the left & right side on the peel.  I loaded the pizza & went to grab my turning peel so that I could heat it up a bit before turning the pie.  By the time I got back I had some really crazy leoparding on the pizza & heard sizzling sound which I knew right away was the cheese which meant that there was a hole burnt into the pizza.  I pulled it out & sure enough my overfermentation suspicion was confirmed.  I stretched the rest of the dough with caution & forewent the second stretch & ended up with pies a little thicker than what I'm used to/like.  Again, the leoparding was crazy, like I've never seen before.  Long story short; the flavor was amazing but the dough was really difficult to work with.  I am now completely convinced that the leoparding that you're looking to achieve is the direct result of overfermentation & high heat.  No, there are no pics, I was too pissed off!  Give it a shot if that's what your after.

Matt

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2010, 09:50:25 AM »
Wonderful Matt.  Thank you for the compliment and for your post - this confirms my suscipions now.  I know that these 2 factors (heat and fermentation) have been brought up before.  I believe there is a whole thread on it here for anyone wanting more information.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6214.0.html
I do want to say that Marc (widespreadpizza) has told me the same when I PM'd him. 

Having thought that I was supplying both of these factors, especially since I was baking <2.5" under the broiler, these pox were still eluding me.  For me it's one of those stupid things I just wanna be able to do to learn about it.  It's the challenge of it and wanting to know more about it and possibly control it.  This way when I eat pizza at a famous place or see pics online, I can confidently pinpoint the variables that causes that.  It will expand my pizza knowledge and make me a bit more versatile.  Thus my obsession with trying to attain that.  I'm sure once I can achieve it, I'll be on to something else. 

If I can get the oven built right, I think that I will be able to more easily attain that look if I wanted to.  I may find that I don't like the texture or taste of an overfermented dough at all.  But for now, I still want to learn about it.   

I'm taking John's advice on freezing the dough and will provide an update in several days.  I plan on repeating the experiment will decrease that gap even more down to 1.5" or less.  Not sure I will be able to load a pie with that clearance.  :-D  I have done it with 2" but not less.  I plan on making a same day dough and letting it overferment to compare to the frozen then thawed dough. 

Should be interesting if i don't blow up my oven. 

Chau

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2010, 10:13:23 AM »
Chau,

You do keep a fire extinguisher handy, right?
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2010, 10:52:14 AM »
Matt, have you ever tried adding some manitoba flour to the mix, so the dough doesn't rip so easy ? wen taking the VPN training Giulio talked to me in private about sourdough fermenting using 10 to 20% of manitoba flour, this helps the acid in the SD not to completely destroy the gluten.
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2010, 12:48:39 PM »
Matt, have you ever tried adding some manitoba flour to the mix, so the dough doesn't rip so easy ? wen taking the VPN training Giulio talked to me in private about sourdough fermenting using 10 to 20% of manitoba flour, this helps the acid in the SD not to completely destroy the gluten.

Hey Andre,
No I have never tried.  I used to purchase Manitoba Flour (Canadian Hard Western Spring Wheat) from a small local Mill just east of the city that produces some fantastic flours.  Since I started making bread I've moved to using the same product but with additives (amylase, diastatic malt, etc). 
Manitoba Flour seems to be an issue that causes a bit of confusion, most people substitute it for bread flour, HG flour, or strong bakers flour which is not the same thing.  I have never used, nor do I have access to Caputo Manitoba flour but I image it's the same thing as CHWSW.  If anyone has tried or is currently using "Manitoba Flour" milled in Italy I would be very curious to know the list of ingredients on the package.

Matt

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2010, 12:59:03 PM »
i think its the same Matt, cause they also called it farina Americana... wen talking to the Italian's from 5stagioni here in Sao Paulo in a food show, they said all bakers in Italy call the strong flour farina Americana, and in the 50,60 and 70s if the American flag was not in the package they would not buy it... try something like that... unfortunately i have no access to this kind of flour, just the blue 00 5 stagioni and the 00 granarolo.
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Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2010, 12:39:17 AM »
JT,

Reguarding the heat balance issue.  One thing that I noticed when i tried to use your broiler only method was that the stone surface temperature would rise quickly AND fall quickly when the thermostat shut the oven off .  I think this was because the stone surface was the only part that was hot.  The remainder of the stone hadn't come to temperature.  The temperature of the stone is much more stable with my current fire brick oven set up, even when the heating element shuts off.

You might try and extended bake (not broil) at the highest temperature for a couple of hours and then crank the broiler just prior to firing your pizza. Other options would be a lower rack position with a row of firebrick under the stone to achieve same 2.5 inch gap in order to maximize thermal mass/stored heat.

What kind of wfo are you considering?  I'm really looking at the Casa 36" from forno bravo.  Tough to make an informed decision without the ability to test drive the various ovens.

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2010, 10:31:18 AM »
Alexi, I plan on increasing the preheat times to see if there is a difference as I stopped timing the preheat times sometime ago.   Yeah how long a stone takes to heat up and hold it's heat is dependant on its material.   For these types of bakes I use my Primo stone or quarry tiles (2 layers) works well.
I'm not having any issues with the bottom heat, it's the top heat (even though I'm currently less than 2.5" from the heat source.  The bottom of the pie is charring appropriately and there is good oven spring.  Just the leoparding is missing initially, which tells me there is a lack of top heat if heat is indeed 1 of the 2 factors responsible for that extreme leoparding. 

I'm pretty sure lowering the stone won't help my situation.   I noticed that the leoparding appeared when the dough rose into the fire of the broiler.  That tells me that I have to get the stone even closer to the broiler element to bring about the extreme leoparding.  So close that the baked dough will/should rise almost right into the fire.

I did pick up a tip from PizzaBlogger from another thread along the lines of using the convection along with my high heat.  It's quite possible that the convection will make a difference.  I will test it out and post up in a few days. 

As far as the WFO goes, I know very little about them.  I'm just in the research mode right now.  I would like to either build a small one from scratch or get a prefab one on a rolling cart such as member Thezaman.  Of course, the real challenge to building one from scratch (and not using professional plans) is to have all the right components, and have it all come together correctly the first time.   That is a huge feat, since there are usually things you find out at the last minute that weren't planned on.  It's something that I wouldn't be able to get much help or advise on and likely something I would have to go about alone.

Chau
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:02:24 AM by Jackie Tran »


 

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