Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 40935 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2010, 09:18:04 PM »
Finally got the electrical fixed and the oven is working again.  I had one caputo doughball left in the fridge from the first batch out of the new Bosch, so naturally I had to sacrifice him to the oven gods.

Same pie, different angles.





Money!  Nice job.

Matt


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2010, 09:20:31 PM »
WOW Chau the pie looks great... any secrets ?
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2010, 09:30:28 PM »
 :-D I was just kidding about magic formulas.  For this pie, well kneaded caputo dough, 4 day cold ferment (dough should double while CF'ing), and high temps.

Here's a big giveaway. Look at any well leoparded rim, take out the spots and tell me what color the rim is.  How do you get that color and what does it mean?   ;)

So we've gone from frozen dough to a 4 day cold ferment.
My next challenge will be to do this without cold fermenting. 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 11:30:01 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2010, 09:55:58 PM »
whoops...I forgot.  Here are 2 secret ingredients Andre.  :P
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 01:27:56 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2010, 11:44:27 PM »
What's your message chau,  oxidation?  overkneading?

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2010, 12:04:19 AM »
What's your message chau,  oxidation?  overkneading?

AZ

Alexi, NY water and magic dust. Just kidding.  Yes if you read Toby's nearlypolitan thread, he mentions that he kneaded the crap out of the dough.  I believe that's 1/3 of the equation. The other 2 variables have been mentioned already.  Toby, I believe has posted that he can get the spots without cold fermenting.

Alexi give it a try and let me know.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 12:33:29 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2010, 12:31:11 AM »
If you get a chance, I would like to see the bottom of the pizza's that have brought you so much happiness.  Congrats on your find, its probably not for me, but I am excited for you none the less.  ;D :chef: :pizza: :chef:
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Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2010, 12:34:08 AM »
Alexi, NY water and magic dust. Just kidding.  Yes if you read Toby's nearlypolitan thread, he mentions that he kneaded the crap out of the dough.  I believe that's 1/3 of the equation. The other 2 variables have been mentioned already.  Toby, I believe has posted that he can get the spots without cold fermenting.

Chau,

I guess my question is, when you referred to the white non spotted portion of the cornicione, what were you alluding to?

Also I forgot to give you props on your beautiful pie.  

How many minutes did it bake for.  Was the crumb at all tough from over kneading?

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2010, 12:49:05 AM »
If you get a chance, I would like to see the bottom of the pizza's that have brought you so much happiness.  Congrats on your find, its probably not for me, but I am excited for you none the less.  ;D :chef: :pizza: :chef:

JD - I usually take a lot of photos but not this time.  The bottom looked very much like the pie shown in reply #1 that is folded over.  White with some charring.   The whole leoparding bit was more or less just a personal challenge I set for myself.  I think the look is cool and wanted to learn how to do it.  I asked around but got limited answers and basically kept at it till I could do it.  The other reason for wanting to achieve it is that I had hope it would teach me somethings about dough.  I wanted a bit deeper understanding of what really causes it.  You can read conflicting info on the forum about any given topic and until you actually experiment and find out, you can't really know for sure.   

I'm not necessarily in love with pies that have extreme leoparding, I'm just happy at the fact that I kept after it until I could conquer it and maybe understand it better. 

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2010, 01:07:37 AM »
Chau,

I guess my question is, when you referred to the white non spotted portion of the cornicione, what were you alluding to?

Also I forgot to give you props on your beautiful pie.  

How many minutes did it bake for.  Was the crumb at all tough from over kneading?

AZ

Thanks for the props.  I was simply alluding to the fact that I noted that all the heavily leoparded rims I've seen, the dough is usually white (not always but usually).  If you look at the first pie in this thread it was made with caputo as well and notice it is not as white and has less leoparding.  Also in my thread "finally caught a break with caputo" those first pies are made with caputo as well.  Note the color and the abscence of leoparding.  Member glutenboy even asked if those first ones had sugar in the formulation b/c of the coloring of the rim.  They were broiled in the same fashion as these heavily leoparded pies.    I was just saying that I believe that a well oxidated dough was part of the formula for heavy leoparding especially since Toby mentioned the same thing in his thread under his methods section.

The crumb was not tough at all.  This is the same dough from the first batch out of the Bosch whereby I mixed it for 20mins or so on speed 1.  That's the same dough baked up in Bill's WFO.  The only difference is that this one had another 1.5d of CF'ing.   As far as bake times, I've stopped timing these bakes but they are usually around 45s - 1 min until the bottom gets the desired spotting.  then the pie is pulled out and rimmed.  When i pulled this one out, the top of the cornicione had some spotting already.   i rimmed it to get the outer edge and was surprise to see the spots come out then. 

The crumb was very moist and soft despite overkneading.   This is consistent with post #24 where I over kneaded by hand and still got a soft crumb.  I think (i don't know for sure) that this is due to the short bake times and the high moisture content in the crumb.  This keeps it from drying out and having a dry leather texture. 

BTW, let's compare this pie to the one I baked in Bill's WFO since both are from the same batch.  Night and day difference with the WFO baked pie being much much better.  Different texture = different taste completely.  These probably have the texture and taste of a more traditional NP meaning softer crumb, not crunch to skin.  Where as the pie baked in Bill's WFO tasted a bit more like an elite NY'er with the skin being a bit more crisp and the texture having a bit more chew and not quite as moist. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 01:13:33 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2010, 01:19:07 AM »
Very nice answer Chau.  Lot's of food for thought. 

I am picking your brain because you have obviously thought deeply about this pursuit and paid your dues in the form of many many bakes.

One final question, in your mind what causes the oxidation of a developing dough?

Is is whipping air into a wet dough (giving credence to scott r's egg beater hypothesis)?  is it the speed or length of mixing?  Is it length of fermentation?

How does the freezing and thawing of dough play into this theory?  do ice crystals cause perforations in the gluten matrix allowing for more air movement within the dough?

In other words If you wanted to oxidize the hell out of a dough what would you do?

Thanks,

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2010, 01:47:18 AM »
Very nice answer Chau.  Lot's of food for thought. 

I am picking your brain because you have obviously thought deeply about this pursuit and paid your dues in the form of many many bakes.

One final question, in your mind what causes the oxidation of a developing dough?

Is is whipping air into a wet dough (giving credence to scott r's egg beater hypothesis)?  is it the speed or length of mixing?  Is it length of fermentation?

How does the freezing and thawing of dough play into this theory?  do ice crystals cause perforations in the gluten matrix allowing for more air movement within the dough?

In other words If you wanted to oxidize the hell out of a dough what would you do?

Thanks,

AZ


 :-D  Good questions Alexi.  First off, I don't purport to know all the answers.  I just read, try to understand, use what makes sense, experiment, re-experiment, experiment some more, and then make some wild hypotheses. :-D

What causes oixdation of the dough? Oxygen.  Incorporating oxygen oxidizes the dough.
Is it whipping air into a wet dough?   possibly.  Whipping air into a dough is one way of doing it but not the only way.  You can oxidize a dough through gentle hand kneading.  I have done it many times before.
Is it the speed or length of mixing?  Yes for speed but not necessarily.  Time of knead would depend on the speed used.  Think about this.  How fast or vigorous you knead a dough (depending on it's protein content) can affect the end texture (ie crumb).   You can oxidize a dough through gentle or vigorous kneading and end up with a different texture for each technique.
Is it length of fermentation?  Yes but how long is relative.  Recall (or go back and read) during my initial Bosch test where I mixed up the first batch of dough using caputo.  I was disappointed that the dough didn't seem to get ultra white even after 20min of kneading.  The color had lightened but it wasn't ultra white.  However, after the 6 hour proof, the color had gotten much whiter but not ultra white.  After cold fermenting for several days, it got ultra white.   You can achieve that color through kneading and/or prolonged fermentation.  Remember, cold fermetation is still fermentation, it is just slowed way down.   So I don't believe cold fermentation is absolutely necessary.  This is how and why some folks have reported getting heavy leoparding without cold fermentation.  For example Matt's post in reply #42.

How does freezing and thawing play into this? I honestly don't know other than it's another form of fermenting (really slow cold fermentation? ???).  It's possible without freezing and thawing.  That's one way to do it but not the only way.  There maybe a lot of biochemical stuff going on with freezing and thawing that I don't understand.  For now, I'm keeping it really simple in my mind by saying that it's really 3 factors:
-oxidize dough
-overfermentation (whether you get there by bus, train, or plane)
-high heat

If I wanted to oxidize the hell out of a dough how would i do it?
Well there's a couple of ways...
-whip the heck out of it, or overknead the dough.
-overferment it (long ferments at room temps, cold ferments, freezing, or any combination of the 3 as long as the dough is overfermented)

This is about as much as I understand at this point in replicating the leoparding.  Alexi if you want to try and get leoparding in the rim, take one of your overfermented doughs and stretch it out on your metal peel and rim it under the broiler.  Don't bake the dough first.  Just stick it under intense heat and report back.   It may not be edible but it should give you some ideas.

Chau
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 10:40:17 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2010, 12:47:06 PM »
According to Professor Raymond Calvel, in his book The Taste of Bread, it is the combined effects of increased mixing speed and cumulative mixing time that brings on the phenomenon of dough oxidation. You need both. For example, if the mixing speed is high but the mixing time is short, the length of the time that the dough is in contact with atmospheric oxygen is short, so the oxidation of the dough can be minimal or nonexistent. Professor Calvel noted that a high level of oxidation is achieved whenever:

1) intensive mixing methods are used,
2) bean flour or other oxidizing additives are present,
3) salt addition is delayed until late in the mixing process, and
4) a large portion of the dough is continually in contact with atmospheric oxygen
(Source: page 30 of The Taste of Bread)

Professor Calvel believed that the above practices resulted in an artificial maturation of the dough, and there is perhaps nothing that rankled Professor Calvel more than French bakers who used such methods. Negative side effects of such practices included a bleaching of the dough and destruction of carotenoids, with a resulting bleaching of the crumb and a "lessening and general deterioration of the taste of the bread." Prof. Calvel noted that the "delicate flavors of the flour's caretenoid pigments are lost through oxidation." Elsewhere, he described the carotenoids as "flavor carriers". So, clearly, he did not favor overoxidation of the dough.

I do not recall reading anywhere that overfermentation will result in overoxidation of the dough. I am not saying that it does not happen, only that I have not read of that effect anywhere. If I had, I think it would have registered since I have been studying the effects of oxidation on dough for a long time.

Freezing of dough stops the fermentation process. There may be some small amount of fermentation as a dough starts to cool down but it stops completely when it freezes. That means that there is no carbon dioxide produced and no ethyl alcohol and no related conversion processes that are responsible for the flavor, aroma, color or texture of the finished crust and crumb. Once the dough is allowed to thaw, then the fermentation process is resuscitated. Freezing dough actually causes more damage to the yeast as the ice particles expand and pierce the yeast. Commercial producers of frozen dough balls compensate for the destruction of the yeast by significantly increasing the amount of yeast used in the dough at the outset. They also take measures to protect the gluten structure, as by using a stronger flour, adding more salt to strengthen and stabilize the dough, and adding oil to improve the rheology and plasticity of the dough and protect the gluten. There are also a wide range of additives that can be used for similar purposes. 

Peter

Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2010, 05:24:36 PM »
Petezza,

as usual you are an encyclopedia pizzanica.  Thank you for you post.  It highlighted several possible inconsistencies in the unified theory of leoparding.

1. What does freezing have to do with "oxidation?"
2. How does a process that produces no oxigen ( ie fermentation) contribute to oxygenation.

It seems to me "gas filled" might be a more apt description of a leopard prone skin than "oxidized."

perhaps a highly yeasted dough would be a good test of this principle.  ie does a short fermentation time with a lot of co2 formation cause leoparding?

pizza is profound.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 06:59:02 PM by ponzu »

Offline utahdave

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2010, 09:45:22 PM »
Make sure you're not confusing oxidation with oxygenation.  Chemically speaking, "oxidation" is the loss of an electron and is a chemical reaction with "reduction" or addition of an electron.  This reaction can occur with or without oxygen.  Freezing slows down chemical reactions.  Therefore a cold environment will slow down all chemical reactions, hence freezing will slow or stop oxidation as well as fermentation.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2010, 10:08:59 PM »
Thanks for the informative post Peter.  Good to know that salt is added late in the mixing process in order to aid in oxygenation of the dough.   Also good to know that oxidation of the dough leads to an artificial maturation.  That seems to be consistent with the ideas that a mature dough (white rim) is often seen in heavily leoparded rims.

Jeffrey Hamelman wrote of the same ideas of oxidation destroying the carotenoids and that it is undesireable in bread baking.   He said what is desireable is to achieve a balance between under and over kneading.  I don't know how many pizzerias are aware of these concepts or even subscribe to them.  It would seem that an observation of the finished crumb shows that many pizzerias do indeed overknead the dough and add oil for the softening affects.  Neapolitan pizzas seem almost characteristic in their ultra white bleached dough.  

As far as fermentation leading to further oxidation of the dough, I was really just reporting what I observed in that particular batch.  I believe you and Alexi are correct that it does not.  I had my doubts even while typing that particular statement.   A possible explanation is that during cold fermentation, the water that is release may possibly give the dough a whiter appearance?  Again, not quite sure what is going on but I did observe a color change from the mixed dough to the bulk fermented dough, and then post cold fermentation.  The dough was noticeable and significantly whiter after cold fermentation.  This observation lead me to concluding that fermentation must somehow play a part in oxidation, but again I had my doubts as well as it really didn't seem to make logical sense.

Alexi, I agree that we don't really know exactly where and how the leopard spots come from.  At this point it is just a unified theory.  There are numerous post that they come from cold fermented doughs and then there are posts that say it can be done with room fermented doughs.  My speculation has always been that it had more to do with overall overfermenation rather than the temperature of fermentaiton (ie cold or freezing of the dough).   I just happened to reproduced John's results by freezing the dough.  Perhaps that dough would have developed leopard spots just as well without the freezing and thawing as it was an overfermented dough to begin with.  

An interesting test to see if freezing has any effect on spotting is to not overknead a dough and then freeze it soon after kneading.  Thawed and baked as soon as it is thawed  (not allowing the dough to overferment) using the same broiler method that has proven to give the spots previously.  That should provide some sort of answer.  

Your theory that a gas filled dough rather than an oxidize dough should be easy to test as well.  Mix 2 batches of dough, 1 with minimal kneading and the 2nd with an exaggerated over kneading.  Allow both to proof up to double or triple and the again use the broiler method.  This should show whether it truely is a gas filled dough or an overkneaded gas filled dough.  

You can also repeat the experiment with the same amount of yeast but this time allow the doughs to proof for double the time use previously.  This will give us an idea as to whether overfermentation plays a role or not and perhaps to what extent.  

I'm not sure that these experiments are exactly scientific but they can be easily done provided the time and motivation.  There are 100 experiments I would love to do but unable to do them all myself.  I really just do the ones that interest me most.   For the time being though and having achieved the once elusive leoparded rim, I am satisfied to put these test on hold as I really need to focus on doing some homework for my WFO.  Thanks for any interest and participation.

Chau
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 10:44:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #76 on: September 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM »
Good points all Chau.

I am asking so many questions about terms such as "oxidation" and "oxygenation" not to try to nit pick, or even to accurately define the term.  Rather I am trying to better understand your findings in your excellent experiments. 

I guess I would summarize the findings as such:  there are several factors which cause whitening of the dough; overkneeding, overfermenting and freezing and thawing the dough.  In your experience white dough leopards well.

I sincerely hope that you were not offended by any of my comments or questions.  They were all written with out of respect and curiosity. 

I feel I have learned so much from this thread, both from your comments and others.

Please keep up the excellent work.

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2010, 12:21:20 AM »
Alexi I was not offended at all.  I really appreciate all of your comments and participation.  I tend to be a bit laxed on definitions and details and tend to jump to conclusions from time to time.  So I'm always thankful for any corrections or requests for clarification.

Thank you for the many kind remarks.  Your consideration and warm remarks are evident in your posts.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:23:47 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2010, 01:34:55 PM »
Your theory that a gas filled dough rather than an oxidize dough should be easy to test as well.  Chau

This caught my attention since I had just sat down with Peter Taylor yesterday for a few minutes and I watched him form the ball he gave me, trapping a LOT of air inside that ball.....his pies definitely had leoparding :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2010, 02:19:35 PM »
I think it is important to keep in mind that a lot of what we know about making pizza dough comes from the bread side. But that doesn't mean that we have to use all of the principles, including many of the artisan methods, that have been passed on from the bread side to the pizza side, whether it is autloyse, stretch and folds, preferments, natural starters, no-knead, and so on. Bread dough in its final form--usually a loaf of some form--has a different form factor than a flat pizza crust. I think we should feel free to use whatever methods produce the results we are after, no matter where they derive from. So, if someone is more interested in a particular final crust texture than flavor, then why should it matter that the carotenoids are destroyed by excessive oxidation of the dough? The French bakers that Prof. Calvel railed against did essentially that. They used the intensive mixing methods along with additives to make soft, high-volume breads with white looking crumbs with tight cells and little taste. By the time they were done, they all had fancy fast-speed mixers.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:37:42 AM by Pete-zza »


 

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