Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 49729 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2010, 10:08:59 PM »
Thanks for the informative post Peter.  Good to know that salt is added late in the mixing process in order to aid in oxygenation of the dough.   Also good to know that oxidation of the dough leads to an artificial maturation.  That seems to be consistent with the ideas that a mature dough (white rim) is often seen in heavily leoparded rims.

Jeffrey Hamelman wrote of the same ideas of oxidation destroying the carotenoids and that it is undesireable in bread baking.   He said what is desireable is to achieve a balance between under and over kneading.  I don't know how many pizzerias are aware of these concepts or even subscribe to them.  It would seem that an observation of the finished crumb shows that many pizzerias do indeed overknead the dough and add oil for the softening affects.  Neapolitan pizzas seem almost characteristic in their ultra white bleached dough.  

As far as fermentation leading to further oxidation of the dough, I was really just reporting what I observed in that particular batch.  I believe you and Alexi are correct that it does not.  I had my doubts even while typing that particular statement.   A possible explanation is that during cold fermentation, the water that is release may possibly give the dough a whiter appearance?  Again, not quite sure what is going on but I did observe a color change from the mixed dough to the bulk fermented dough, and then post cold fermentation.  The dough was noticeable and significantly whiter after cold fermentation.  This observation lead me to concluding that fermentation must somehow play a part in oxidation, but again I had my doubts as well as it really didn't seem to make logical sense.

Alexi, I agree that we don't really know exactly where and how the leopard spots come from.  At this point it is just a unified theory.  There are numerous post that they come from cold fermented doughs and then there are posts that say it can be done with room fermented doughs.  My speculation has always been that it had more to do with overall overfermenation rather than the temperature of fermentaiton (ie cold or freezing of the dough).   I just happened to reproduced John's results by freezing the dough.  Perhaps that dough would have developed leopard spots just as well without the freezing and thawing as it was an overfermented dough to begin with.  

An interesting test to see if freezing has any effect on spotting is to not overknead a dough and then freeze it soon after kneading.  Thawed and baked as soon as it is thawed  (not allowing the dough to overferment) using the same broiler method that has proven to give the spots previously.  That should provide some sort of answer.  

Your theory that a gas filled dough rather than an oxidize dough should be easy to test as well.  Mix 2 batches of dough, 1 with minimal kneading and the 2nd with an exaggerated over kneading.  Allow both to proof up to double or triple and the again use the broiler method.  This should show whether it truely is a gas filled dough or an overkneaded gas filled dough.  

You can also repeat the experiment with the same amount of yeast but this time allow the doughs to proof for double the time use previously.  This will give us an idea as to whether overfermentation plays a role or not and perhaps to what extent.  

I'm not sure that these experiments are exactly scientific but they can be easily done provided the time and motivation.  There are 100 experiments I would love to do but unable to do them all myself.  I really just do the ones that interest me most.   For the time being though and having achieved the once elusive leoparded rim, I am satisfied to put these test on hold as I really need to focus on doing some homework for my WFO.  Thanks for any interest and participation.

Chau
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 10:44:21 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #76 on: September 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM »
Good points all Chau.

I am asking so many questions about terms such as "oxidation" and "oxygenation" not to try to nit pick, or even to accurately define the term.  Rather I am trying to better understand your findings in your excellent experiments. 

I guess I would summarize the findings as such:  there are several factors which cause whitening of the dough; overkneeding, overfermenting and freezing and thawing the dough.  In your experience white dough leopards well.

I sincerely hope that you were not offended by any of my comments or questions.  They were all written with out of respect and curiosity. 

I feel I have learned so much from this thread, both from your comments and others.

Please keep up the excellent work.

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2010, 12:21:20 AM »
Alexi I was not offended at all.  I really appreciate all of your comments and participation.  I tend to be a bit laxed on definitions and details and tend to jump to conclusions from time to time.  So I'm always thankful for any corrections or requests for clarification.

Thank you for the many kind remarks.  Your consideration and warm remarks are evident in your posts.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:23:47 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2010, 01:34:55 PM »
Your theory that a gas filled dough rather than an oxidize dough should be easy to test as well.  Chau

This caught my attention since I had just sat down with Peter Taylor yesterday for a few minutes and I watched him form the ball he gave me, trapping a LOT of air inside that ball.....his pies definitely had leoparding :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2010, 02:19:35 PM »
I think it is important to keep in mind that a lot of what we know about making pizza dough comes from the bread side. But that doesn't mean that we have to use all of the principles, including many of the artisan methods, that have been passed on from the bread side to the pizza side, whether it is autloyse, stretch and folds, preferments, natural starters, no-knead, and so on. Bread dough in its final form--usually a loaf of some form--has a different form factor than a flat pizza crust. I think we should feel free to use whatever methods produce the results we are after, no matter where they derive from. So, if someone is more interested in a particular final crust texture than flavor, then why should it matter that the carotenoids are destroyed by excessive oxidation of the dough? The French bakers that Prof. Calvel railed against did essentially that. They used the intensive mixing methods along with additives to make soft, high-volume breads with white looking crumbs with tight cells and little taste. By the time they were done, they all had fancy fast-speed mixers.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:37:42 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2010, 12:02:31 AM »
This caught my attention since I had just sat down with Peter Taylor yesterday for a few minutes and I watched him form the ball he gave me, trapping a LOT of air inside that ball.....his pies definitely had leoparding :)

Stray,

I would love your description of how Peter Taylor now forms his balls.  Has it changed ftom this you tube video?

http://www.youtube.com/user/pftaylor#p/u/2/z3vUSCR-_uQ

AZ

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2010, 11:17:32 AM »
Stray,

I would love your description of how Peter Taylor now forms his balls.  Has it changed ftom this you tube video?

http://www.youtube.com/user/pftaylor#p/u/2/z3vUSCR-_uQ

AZ

Hey AZ,

I can't really speak to how he's forming balls currently as I wasn't there when he formed them for proofing.  What I can pass along is what I saw him do in front of me at the end of lunch service :)

It was more of a tuck-n-fold ala Silence of the Lambs ;D  It was very fast and gentle if that can be said.  Left hand more or less held the ball in place, while with the right he stretched then tucked the fold into the dough....rotated and repeated a few times.  He even commented on how "heavy" the ball was due to trapping air inside.

Hope this helps!

Mark

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2010, 05:05:49 PM »
To those with electrical ovens/"coiled" broiler heating elements: Is the heat along the coil pretty much even throughout for the most part?

I am curious to try an electric oven out......and think it may be better for this application, being that the flame broiler in my oven has such a variable temperature (flame varies from 770 to 950F along the full area of the flame) and the electric coil takes away the risk that a flame will "lick" downwards into your pizzas while cooking, which can result in all sorts of nasty things! :)

Been several weeks since I have made pizza.....I wish my schedule would allow me to make it on a more regular basis.

Tested a new configuration for using nothing but the broiler for cooking. Also tried a new kneading technique ("knuckles kneading") for kicks and the Neapolitan slap technique for shaping.



I'll give the two test pizzas I made today (I have almost no toppings at the moment!) a C+ or B-.......need to work on positioning and turning the pizzas to get a more even heat distribution, which varies by as much as 200F depending on what part of the reflective plate the flame is bouncing down from. You can see the variance of heat by the darker and lighter areas on the cornicione. Will dial this new set up in and post pics of the improved pies later.

Loving the pics of everyones progress in this thread!

« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:18:51 PM by pizzablogger »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2010, 08:55:11 PM »
PB, you did a really nice job.  The first pie looks like it came from a WFO.  What type of flour did you use?


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2010, 09:15:34 PM »
PB, you did a really nice job.  The first pie looks like it came from a WFO.  What type of flour did you use?

Thanks Chau. Those pies used Caputo Pizzeria flour.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2010, 09:48:50 AM »
Crumb is getting better, but not satisfied yet with the whole pizza. It needs to be lighter, more airy.

Need much better even distribution of heat, drab nabbit.

Back to the drawing board.

Ruby: smoked mozzarella, taleggio, sea salt, olive oil, brined fresh kale, lemon juice

pizza went fast by the time the camera came out.....last slice!

Grade: B

(disclosure: the crumb on the right sided picture had a pin flashlight shined onto it when taking the picture in order to brighten the crumb for my future reference and comparisons)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 09:50:52 AM by pizzablogger »
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2010, 09:58:32 AM »
Just spotted this thread for the 1st time and I have a question. Fibrament says never broil their stone. They also say the stone is fired at 2500 degrees and to clean it put it on cleaning cycle. Since we know that's 1000 degrees, and it's fired at 2500, why can't you do this method by broiling a Fibrament stone???

Amazing looking pies, especially considering no starter and AP flour! I'd love to find a way to do this.


EDIT: 2 1/2 days later...

Ok then, Never mind!  :-X
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 09:11:46 AM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2010, 06:24:38 PM »

EDIT: 2 1/2 days later...

Ok then, Never mind!  :-X

That's how I usually feel. lol.   :-D 

NYPS - Thxs for the compliment.  I don't have a fibrament stone so really I shouldn't even try to answer your question but...obviously if the manufacture says don't do it, then they can't guarantee it won't fail if you use it in a fashion outside their recommendations.

Having said that, I can't see why you couldn't use it under the broiler at those temps of 800-900F.   I can't see it being a dangerous situation.  Worse case scenario, the stone cracks and you learn from your mistake.  I'm willing to bet it will do just fine.   It actually should perform quite well given that it is a relatively low conducting stone (from what I've read).  It should be a bit more lenient as far as the bottom of the pie charring. 

My recommendations? Crank the broiler full blast and post up the results.  But I like to push the envelope and see what can and can't really be done :P
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 06:27:19 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2010, 07:26:37 AM »
Getting really frustrated with my oven.

Broiler started behaving badly again.....flare ups, uneven heat, flames licking down onto the pizza....latest tinkerings and I felt like I was a step behind the whole way.

Burnt the pizza in a few spots and got more of a New York-Neapolitan coal fired oven look to it than I wanted. A shame, since the pizza tasted delicious.

Back to the drawing board....don't think I'll be happy until I get a wood burner and some approximation of reliably high temperatures and better heat distribution.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2010, 07:45:13 AM »
PB I can completely relate to your fustrations with the home oven bake.  However my ultimate goal is to approximate a WFO bake in the home oven.  Sound impossible?  Maybe not. Well, it will never be the same but how close can we get it?

Also I'm as picky as any pizza making fool, and that's a great looking pie.  Obvioulsy for a lighter looking crumb just pull it from the broiler a few seconds sooner with each pass of the rim and you are there.  Any crumb shots?  If at some point in the future, If I can get the appropriate ovenspring and crumb structure out of the home oven, I may just forgo my plans for a WFO.  Keep the dream alive and keep those pies coming!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 09:33:14 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2010, 08:33:44 AM »
I am in awe of the results you and other such as Chau are getting in a home oven. They are nearly identical to WFO pizzas - and probably taste just as good if not better (you are all seasoned pros).

John

Offline thezaman

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2010, 12:44:33 PM »
pb these are the first pies i have seen from you ,the look fantastic . is that caputo dough ?


Offline thezaman

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2010, 12:54:59 PM »
sorry pb i didn't read the posts above about caputo.

Offline ponzu

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2010, 01:15:16 PM »
PB

For what it's worth I give your pies an A in the looks department.  They are truly stunning.  They have a Neapolitan look with a really springy and non gummy appearing crumb.

In my experience the difficulty of this Neapolitan rimming technique is the unevenness of the crumb level of doneness even when the top Looks evenly charred.

Anyway keep up the great work and I look forward to your posts.

AZ

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2010, 08:05:52 PM »
Thanks for the compliments everyone.

@Chau: No crumb shots. Made this as part of a pizza tasting of 6 pizzas and peeps were clamoring to get into each pizza. Between juggling with making pizzas and stuff, I didn't take many photos at all. Crumb was good though....airy and light.


I made my first potato pizza (yukon gold potatoes, salt, olive oil, taleggio, thyme, cracked black pepper) and it won't be my last. Anyone else tinker with potatoes on pizzas yet? --K
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Offline gtsum2

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2010, 09:29:59 PM »
potato pizza????????

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2010, 10:29:44 PM »
potato pizza????????


It's been on the menu of Serious Pie for quite some time, not to mention other places:

http://tomdouglas.com/index.php/restaurants/serious-pie/serious-pie-menu/serious-pie-pizza

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2010, 12:23:13 AM »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2010, 11:50:07 AM »

In my experience the difficulty of this Neapolitan rimming technique is the unevenness of the crumb level of doneness even when the top Looks evenly charred.


I absolutely agree.   I'm going to work on a formulation to correct that if possible.  I have some ideas that I hope will work.  ???

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2010, 12:38:22 PM »
I absolutely agree.   I'm going to work on a formulation to correct that if possible.  I have some ideas that I hope will work.  ???

Made one last night that was pretty good.  Definitely an improvement but not quite up to my high expectations.
Also used Ambrosi Bufala on it and this cheese was excellent. 

Chau



 

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