Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 41101 times)

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Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #220 on: June 28, 2011, 08:16:00 PM »
That's why the dough tasted weird...j/k
I ad the salt after the starter and after about 50% o the flour mix and then add then add the rest of the salt with another 25% of the flour mix and then go about the procedure


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #221 on: June 28, 2011, 09:15:08 PM »
Wu, I have made decent pizza and poor pizza from frozen dough before.  My opinion is opposite of yours.  When I have fully proofed or almost fully proofed the dough and then frozen it, the results have been poor.  The reason being is that once the dough thaws and comes to room temp it must be used right away and the window of usability decreases, otherwise you run the risk of overproofing => tough crumb.   It is much better to proof the dough up only upto 50% or so and then freeze.  That way when it comes to room temps, you still have time to heat up the oven, etc.

I made this one in the home oven tonight.   I lowered my HR to an "effective" 63%, down from 68% for the latest HO and WFO NP pie.  

I hope I'm getting the hang of NP now.   :angel:

Oh yeah, this one was 100% caputo pizzeria, 2% starter, 18h RT (75F) ferment, hand mixed.  
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:03:01 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #222 on: June 28, 2011, 11:28:29 PM »
I didnt fully proof the balls before freezing, but yet balled and immediately froze.  I cold fermented to trry and produce some rise and flavor.  No rise and some flavor.  I am not going to experiment with freezing but use it as a means of emergency.
Your pizza looks good.  I am going back to a similar workflow...Crum looks descent, how did it eat?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #223 on: June 29, 2011, 12:08:39 AM »
Wu, I'm a bit surprise that you didn't get any rise at all unless the yeast amount was so small that the freezing process killed them off.  But I would say that is rare so I'm at a lost for a good explanation.

At one time I had this idea of making and freezing doughballs for future use.  Now I just can't see me doing that.

I think the crumb looks pretty good considering it's 100% 00.  If you want a challenge, drop that last 25% BF/HG flour.  The pie ate well, but not as good as it's WFO counterpart.

I'm by no means there and still actively experimenting myself.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #224 on: June 29, 2011, 04:48:07 AM »
Yeah the freezin was odd a's many manufacturers do only frozen dough, perhaps I may freeze another ball sometime in future and see if something else happens.

A's far a's wfo and ho...I have found very little difference in taste, just the fact that the home oven pizzas may get cooler faster. I had extremely similar results with both methods, granted at some level I'm sure the wfo is better.
I'm making pizza this weekend if the gf permits.  I'll try your formula and see what happens.
Was the crumb still moist despite the lower hydration?  Dud you have to knead it noticeably more than with the hg added? Did you also have to get your oven hotter to achieve a full bake with the subtraction of the added malt found in the hg?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #225 on: June 29, 2011, 07:43:49 AM »
Wu you must have a better HO for making pizza than I.  In my Viking and using a broiler method, I cannot achieve a straight bake.  That is to say, I can't simply load the pie and turn it periodically and achieve good coloration on the lateral walls of the crown.  

I must resort to "rimming" of the pie.  That is bake the bottom fully, top partially, pull the pie out and angle an edge against the active broiler to char it.  Turn and repeat, while the majority of the pie is cooling outside the oven. This method creates a nice look but a bit of an uneven bake to the crumb.

Not withstanding the different potentials of different HOs, you may find different results if you repeat your test (HO vs WFO) a year from now if you continue to actively progress.  You may find that the pies to be more perceptually different.   They just have distinctly different baking dynamics and thus give different products.  Better or worse, worth it or not, achievable or not, can all be arguable.

I'm probably the last guy that would reccommend an expensive piece of equipment to anyone.  The opposite is true.  I'd be the first to find a workaround if possible.  

Can a NP be made in a HO?  While many told me NO, I say yes.  Is it as good compared  to my wfo?  No, my wfo undoubtedly makes a better NP pie.  It achieves a more balanced bake all at once.  I don't lose heat while turning the pie.  BUT I'll still work at it though.  The day my dough skills overcome the inadequacies of my HO, you will be the first to know.

Do you need a wfo to make the best NP you can? I would say likely yes.   Now, if your aim is to make an elite style pie, such as what I do in my MBE/LBE then I would say that the difference becomes much less.

IMO and from others that I have read, the WFO does not impart some sort of a smokey taste or extra taste to the crust.  It is the baking (heating) dynamics that create the perceivable differences.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:38:07 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #226 on: June 29, 2011, 07:56:42 AM »
Was the crumb still moist despite the lower hydration?  Dud you have to knead it noticeably more than with the hg added? Did you also have to get your oven hotter to achieve a full bake with the subtraction of the added malt found in the hg?


B/c my home oven is likely inherently different than yours, my answers may not carry weight in your kitchen.  The crumb was still moist but not quite as moist/wet, soft, and tender compared to the 68% dough.  Both were baked in a similar manner and time frame.

By dropping the hydration I didn't have to manipulate the dough more compared to my usual higher hydration formula with 25% HG.  YMMV here.  I also haven't done very many hybrid pies baked quickly in my HO.  Lately, it has been either straight 00 or a more NY style pie baked out longer.

I got the oven to the same temps as before.  The only difference was the lower hydration.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:10:12 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #227 on: June 29, 2011, 09:40:57 PM »
Regarding when I bake my pies...it seems as though they require way LESS maintenance than yours.  All I do is slide the pie in and wait...With the light on I am able to see the entire pizza without opening the door.  I use the bottom rims to approximate underskirt "doneness" and at most my pizzas require one turn and that is to move the back right quadrant to the front.  This is somewhat consistant as my broilers back quarter must be different(hotter), but I dont know why...As for my broiler it is electric and a large coil that spans the entire ceiling.  This is clearly an advantage, because when I go home to my parents house and occasionally make pizza i find my self handling the pizzas alot more do to the fact that the burner is centrally located and the heat radiating outwards only gets even more sporadic...so the key to minimal handling=electricity...even when i used a wfo i had to spin the pizzas more.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #228 on: July 17, 2011, 08:53:08 PM »
So I had planned on baking pizza in the LBE tonight.  After the first pie cooked, I opened and topped the 2nd pie, came out to the garage and empty on propane!   :(  

Also did not have a back up tank like I usually do.  >:(  So I had to fire the home oven quickly, while my pizza skin sat on the wooden peel.  This is not a good situation.  Transfered the topped pie back on my workbench and covered the pie waiting for the oven to heat up.  I also transferred my hot stone with leather gloves to under the broiler, which I really didn't want to do but I didn't want to ditch the pie at this point.  Needles to say, I didn't let the oven heat up fully and was lucky to be able to slip the GI metal peel under the pie and transfer it back onto my short handle wooden peel.

Here is the pie.   ::)

The rim did not rise much at all which was disappointing but it reminded me of some of the Naples pies I've seen with a flat rim.  I decided to make a video showing me tearing it similar to another video posted of a da michele pie.



Please excuse the messy kitchen and kids screaming in the background.   :-D

Chau
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 09:08:54 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #229 on: July 17, 2011, 09:08:20 PM »
Loved the video of the da Chau pie.  I was in suspence while you decided if it was good or not. :chef:
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #230 on: July 18, 2011, 10:27:53 PM »
Thanks Gene.  I didn't want to be like one of those morning news folks who declare a food great as soon as it touches their lips.   :-D

Chau

Offline plainslicer

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #231 on: July 22, 2011, 08:08:14 PM »
Chau, I ate at Da Michele two weeks ago and I can confirm that looks just like the real deal. I bet it tasted as good or even better. That it was done in your home oven is quite the accomplishment. From the video, the thickness and texture look about right.

DM and Antica Costa were no doubt the finest pizzas I've ever had, but in the end they weren't all that exciting, as strange as that may sound--not sure I've got a good way to explain that. I would have tried more places (I had a list of 6 to try) but tripping quite badly on the sidewalk turned my two and half days in Naples into one and a half days hotel-bound with blinding foot pain. C'est la vie, right?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #232 on: July 23, 2011, 08:44:32 AM »
Thank you for the nice words Plainslicer.  Very cool that you got a chance to visit the motherland and try the real thing.  It's always really great to get feedback from forum members who are more critical about pizza and have more experience than the average pizza critic like Julia Roberts.  :-)

DM and Antica Costa were no doubt the finest pizzas I've ever had, but in the end they weren't all that exciting, as strange as that may sound--not sure I've got a good way to explain that.

That doesn't sound strange at all and I thank you for your honest feedback.  Naples pizza, as I have been told by a few others is no doubt very good in it's own right.  It is respectable and has all the history and tradition behind it.  So many wonderful aspects to it but it doesn't have to be the best pie in the world!  If it is for some, then that's all well and good too.  

But for me, it would be like saying fresh baguettes from a certain deli in Paris is hands down the best bread in the world.  Really?  What about all the other greats?  A really great sourdough, a ciabatta, foccacia, on and on?  The best doesn't leave room for anything else does it?  It doesn't leave room for any of the other great styles out there.

Plainslicer, I (and other members I'm sure) would love to see some pictures from your trip including pics from DM and Antica Costa.  

Chau
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 08:46:08 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline plainslicer

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #233 on: July 26, 2011, 11:28:18 AM »
I wish I had pictures, but I don't. I brought along a disposable camera but totally forgot to bring it to the pizzerias. I have yet to replace the digital camera I had stolen during a UK trip in 2006. :-[

The first thing I noticed about Da Michele was its bold tomato sauce. Looking back at that comprehensive Italian video about their kitchen, they showed the sauce being ground from a whole can of tomatoes including the puree. That might explain that. It was different from any Neapolitan I've had in the US. I don't think they add any salt.

The cheese at both DM and Costa was great. I had fior di latte at both. The crusts were saltier than any US NP I've had. It was very hot outside and as has been discussed here they sometimes control the fermentation speed by increasing the salt level. Alone it was a bit much. Surprisingly, at DM I got a generous amount of sauce. Even with the parmesan on top and the salty crust below it threw off the balance. The whole thing could have used a sprinkling of salt.

I ate my pizza at Costa (one of the little ones in the heated case, but it had just come out) folded up libretto/portafoglio style. Maybe it's in my head but the way you eat pizza changes its flavor. Costa was well-balanced but I was also eating everything sandwiched between the many layers of salty crust. I read here that Costa's dough is made with crisceto. If that is indeed the case, it is just like Marco described where no sour flavor is detectable.

The rims at both places were flatter than at most places in the US. It helps when folding into a libretto. At both there were bits of crispiness on the rim but nowhere else. DM's was easily cut with a dull knife and was not gummy. Leoparding was limited to small black dots here and there.

Overall I think it's worth tacking a day or two in Naples onto another trip as I did, but probably not a visit on its own. A food trip including various parts of Italy would have been much more interesting, I think.

I did have a bad pizza in Naples--at the airport. I figured I'd give it a try since it was not that expensive. It was made in a deck oven with temps around 650 F. I didn't notice immediately but the skin was thrown in a sheeter. It baked up flat and even after several minutes it didn't get much color (maybe using unmalted flour?). It was lousy but not offensive.

I'm not exactly an expert but I hope this is a helpful enough review.

Oh, I forgot: the oils did not have distinct flavors but maybe worked as a "glue" as has been suggested elsewhere. There was a big plastic container of sunflower seed oil (olio di girasole) in the trash can at Costa's kitchen.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 11:30:55 AM by plainslicer »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #234 on: July 29, 2011, 11:50:26 PM »
Well,this sucks for me.I have been reading these old posts and others for reference.I cannot get my stone over 670 degrees,even under the broiler the whole time.600 -630 seems to be where it levels out.
A few times when the broiler kicked on,I took some new readings,and 670 was the highest I got,but it dropped off very fast.

I have made a few pizzas recently,no pics,the battery died in the camera I have.

I normally placed the stone on the bottom rack to bake the pizzas first,then moved them up for a broiler finish.They came out great but still do not look anything like a Nea style pie at all.Just a great NY one.Im making new doughs with no oil or sugar,just flour,water,salt and yeast.The last few doughs have been super good and opened up easy,shaped easily and no trouble at all.

Now Im trying to heat the stone really hot under the broiler and Im just not seeing the temps I was hoping for.My stone is cheap crap,and I have no cleaning cycle either,so I still wonder if a new stone or plate would even make a difference.

Not going to give up...but wish I could get the temps up there needed for this style.

 :)








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Offline RobynB

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #235 on: July 30, 2011, 12:22:35 AM »
Chickenparm, I feel your pain.  I did the same thing for a while, and then shopped my way through the choices from gas grill mods to steel outdoor ovens to the 2stone to saying F-it and that's how we got to our current WFO install.  Prior to that, I bought the Fibrament stone and then the cast iron pizza pan and tried the broiler method and for me the results were uneven and the kitchen gymnastics required weren't worth it.  I read these threads in awe of those who make such gorgeous pizzas in their home ovens, consistently. 

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #236 on: July 30, 2011, 12:51:14 AM »
Chickenparm, I feel your pain.  I did the same thing for a while, and then shopped my way through the choices from gas grill mods to steel outdoor ovens to the 2stone to saying F-it and that's how we got to our current WFO install.  Prior to that, I bought the Fibrament stone and then the cast iron pizza pan and tried the broiler method and for me the results were uneven and the kitchen gymnastics required weren't worth it.  I read these threads in awe of those who make such gorgeous pizzas in their home ovens, consistently.  

Thanks Robyn...I KNOW I could make even more better,wonderful pies if I was able to get an oven like some of you have done or are working on right now.I believe I am at the point to where I cannot really squeeze any more heat out of the oven itself.

Never stopped me from trying though....I was hoping to be able to make some Nea style pies in the home oven,but I am pretty much stuck in the NY style spot for now.Im sure someday I will try and get a nice WFO or something like it,but for now,gonna do the best I can with what I have.
 ;)
Thanks for your advice and story too! No more gymnastics pie making there for ya!

:)










« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 12:52:46 AM by chickenparm »
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Offline wucactus1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #237 on: July 30, 2011, 07:26:48 AM »
aluminum foil wrapped frozen towel...this trick will unlock everything, I used to think i was locked in the ny-style space, but then I threw one of those guys onto my thermostat in the oven and boom sub two minute bakes!  I just preheat the oven until it beeps at 550 and then add the frozen towel switch to broil and wait 15-20 minutes depending on whether or not im using 00 flour or hg(which is fine at highheat, you just have to watch it more.)  Try it, you wont burn down the house or anything, just be careful when putting on the towel.  where a extra long mitt and use tongs!

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #238 on: July 30, 2011, 12:13:55 PM »
Thanks wu...to be honest,I'm terrified of doing anything MORE to the oven right now.We have been thinking about buying a new oven for the kitchen,and I thought about putting this old one in my detached garage and tinker with it in there.I would not be worried about fire or problems in the garage area.It would allow me to explore new temps and possibly make new pies with it.

My house also has the old style fuse type box,not a circuit breaker switchboard.With stuff being this old,I  don't want to press my luck too much more.At least not inside the house.
 ;)






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Offline RobynB

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #239 on: July 30, 2011, 07:11:44 PM »
Yah, our home oven is a newer very expensive 36" double oven that I don't want to risk damaging.  Though replacing it would have been a LOT cheaper than the WFO...  ;D