Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 46345 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #250 on: March 20, 2012, 10:09:36 PM »
You guys may also enjoy the Nearlypolitan thread as well.  

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html

Nice job climbhighak and Wucactus!  I love that heavily leoparded look.


Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #251 on: April 10, 2012, 09:40:35 PM »
Been toying with my home oven over the past couple weeks after seeing this really neat thread.

I got an experimental Margherita baked in 40 seconds using a home oven that needed only 15 minutes to reach a floor temp of about 900 and a roof temp of ungodly.  Now I need to figure out how to post the images.  Suspect quality images, but images still.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #252 on: April 10, 2012, 09:44:46 PM »
Looking forward to your pictures David.   You'll have to resize the images on your computer to 600x800 or enough for web pages as there is a 128kb limit to each post.  I find that if I post 4 small pics, sometimes I can go back and edit the post and squeeze another picture in. 

I have made a few decent NP pies in the home oven.  And they use to say it couldn't be done without a wfo.   ::)  sure it's not the same, but it's pretty close and it's good enough for me. 

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #253 on: April 10, 2012, 10:10:03 PM »
Well.  

There are some key modifications you need to make but it's certainly more than possible.  Posters here have already shown thermocouple isolation, which is one of those things that needs to be done.  Simply moving the thermocouple works well enough.

I have a standard 550 degree oven.

The first thing I noticed when examining the inside of the oven is that it's black.  This may not be ideal.  Although black colored objects typically have a high emissivity, they also have high absorption.  The entire oven interior, including the surface area behind the heating elements, is black.  Because the surface area behind the heating elements is black, that surface is probably going to do a fair job of absorbing radiation and dissipating that energy in the form of radiation, conduction and convection through to the outside of the oven.  This is not ideal.

Ideally you want the heating element to have a view factor of 1 with respect to the pizza, or the pizza stone.  Because the heating elements are round, the view factor is already significantly less.  To increase the effective view factor I mounted a very thin polished aluminum piece directly above the coils with a clearance of about 1 inch.  This will serve as a more effective reflecting surface so that the part of the radiation that would have been transmitted through and lost due to the black surface is now reflected back towards the stone.  Because of aluminum's other characteristics we don't need to worry about it melting unless it touches the heating elements directly.

The next thing I noticed was the size of the compartment I was trying to heat. It had to be reduced, leaving a relatively small compartment size that could be more effectively and efficiently heated.  Here aluminum foil works fine.  So fine in fact that while the top portion of the entire oven compartment is very hot, the bottom portion remains cool to the touch.

These minor modifications result in an oven that hits appropriate temperatures in about 15 minutes and can deliver enough BTU's to the stone surface to leapord a 12 inch pie finished in 40 seconds flat.  Perfect.  Just enough time to tear the basil and mozzarella.

I'll fool with the pictures tomorrow.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 01:34:34 PM by David Deas »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #254 on: April 11, 2012, 09:52:36 AM »
OK.  Here it is, I think.  The first test firing in the slightly modified oven described above.  

40 second bake, timed with a stopwatch.  I did not expect it to cook this fast.  Needs a lot of work.  Liked the soupy interior.  Did not like the dough formulation.  Definitely need an adjusted dough for when baking that fast.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 09:58:06 AM by David Deas »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #255 on: April 11, 2012, 09:57:59 AM »
Fantastic David! Now that is an authentic neapolitan pie - not an "Almost..."

John

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #256 on: April 11, 2012, 10:01:42 AM »
I agree - very nice.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #257 on: April 11, 2012, 11:05:41 AM »
Beautiful job David.  One of the nicest ones I've seen from a home oven.  If you don't mind posting a shot of your oven setup, I'm sure lots of folks would like to duplicate it.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #258 on: April 11, 2012, 03:43:57 PM »
OK.  Here it is, I think.  The first test firing in the slightly modified oven described above.  

40 second bake, timed with a stopwatch.  I did not expect it to cook this fast.  Needs a lot of work.  Liked the soupy interior.  Did not like the dough formulation.  Definitely need an adjusted dough for when baking that fast.

Dear David, it is very impressive what you have achieved with your electric oven! The way you modified your electric oven, per your brief description above, seems much simpler than the way I modified my gas oven. I look forward to more pizzas coming out of your oven. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #259 on: April 11, 2012, 08:45:22 PM »
Fantastic David! Now that is an authentic neapolitan pie - not an "Almost..."

John

Thanks.  That means a lot coming from one of the masters.

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #260 on: April 11, 2012, 08:46:14 PM »
I agree - very nice.

Another master.  I appreciate the compliments Craig.

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #261 on: April 11, 2012, 08:48:42 PM »
Beautiful job David.  One of the nicest ones I've seen from a home oven.  If you don't mind posting a shot of your oven setup, I'm sure lots of folks would like to duplicate it.

Thanks Chau. You're the man when it comes to this, I have seen, from reading the thread.

And I will post some oven pictures hopefully tomorrow.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 09:17:35 PM by David Deas »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #262 on: April 11, 2012, 08:53:37 PM »
Dear David, it is very impressive what you have achieved with your electric oven! The way you modified your electric oven, per your brief description above, seems much simpler than the way I modified my gas oven. I look forward to more pizzas coming out of your oven. Good day!

Thanks.  Yeah.  I made a filetti this evening in about 30 or so seconds, give or take.  I might have *too* much heat going on.  I don't even cook that fast in a WFO.

What I like about it is that immediately after turning the oven on, slicing the cherry tomatoes, tearing the cheese, tearing the basil, opening the dough and dressing the skin, the oven was already at temperature for launch.  Very cool.  The whole entire process just all happens in one fluid motion without any waiting around.

I've seen some of your pizzas.  They are nice.  How have you modified your oven?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 09:09:47 PM by David Deas »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #263 on: April 12, 2012, 04:32:15 AM »
How have you modified your oven?

Dear David, my gas oven (purchased for $100 at Sears) is very basic. It contains no self-cleaning, no electric pilots, no convection fan, and no broil element. In the process of modifying the oven, first, I lined all the oven walls and floor with polished aluminum plates (not foil). Next, I placed a stack of 4 thick, round pizza stones right above the bake element (the only source of heat) to act as the oven floor. About 4 inches above the floor, I placed a large rectangular pizza stone, extended from wall to wall, hence blocking heat escape. This rectangular pizza stone, sealed all the way around, acts as the oven dome/ceiling, which contains two exhaust holes toward the back. At last, in order to minimize heat loss, I installed two heat shields (made out of steel plates that are covered with aluminum plates) at the front of the oven, both the upper and lower areas. Presently, it takes about 1 hour and 30 minutes for the oven floor to reach 850F. I have included some pictures below. Good night!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #264 on: April 12, 2012, 12:03:52 PM »
OK.  Here goes the second test firing.  We have the aforementioned filetti.  

The cherry tomatoes were huge.  Mammoth.  Like small plum tomatoes or something.  Hated it, but that's why they're being used in test.

This was an approximately 30 second bake.  No gum line.  Burrata was barely melted, though.  Curious how that can work.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #265 on: April 12, 2012, 12:05:27 PM »
Impressive. What does the bottom look like?
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #266 on: April 12, 2012, 12:22:15 PM »
The stone is at about 875-900 degrees at launch according to IR.  So it looks about like how you'd imagine.


Offline bakeshack

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #267 on: April 12, 2012, 01:07:42 PM »
Nice leoparding.  Would you mind posting your dough formula and workflow even if it's a test formula?

Marlon

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #268 on: April 12, 2012, 03:55:49 PM »
Nice leoparding.  Would you mind posting your dough formula and workflow even if it's a test formula?

Marlon

Incredibly experimental.  But I'm like that.  Normally I'd just grab a sourdough starter and hydrate to about 59% to 60% and be done.  But every now and then I like to play around and see what can be done with different fermentation processes.

Anyways.

This is an old dough method.  The original yeast came from the barm of a Belgian wit.  The yeast characteristics here are very interesting.  The dough turns a brown hue as it matures and smells incredibly sweet.  Like candy.  Best smelling dough ever, IMO.  Unlike anything else you'll find.  These yeast will not produce a great deal of alcohol and will not consume all the sugar in the dough no matter how long left to mature.  As opposed to CY or sourdough (where the longer the fermentation process the less and less sweet the dough becomes), in this case here the longer the fermentation, the sweeter and sweeter the dough became!!  

Towards the tail end of fermentation I like to let a little bit of bacteria into the mix.  They'll play a very subtle sour note at the finish.  Sort of a sweet and sour type of deal.  So the dough does not start out a sourdough, but it ends up as one.

The flour is 00.  Hydration is around 57% or so.  The performance of the dough was fine.  The flavor was just fine, and not overpowering.  But the hydration needed to be increased to probably over 60% I think.  The gluten never degraded one single iota, which is normal for a sourdough and to some extent a pure commercial yeast dough.  I was counting on protein degradation and water release during extended fermentation in order to compensate for the relatively low hydration, but that never occurred.

For a 30 to 40 second pie, I'm not sure what the dough formula should be to be quite honest.  50 seconds is around about my previous record so I'm in brand new territory here as far as I'm concerned.  I haven't made up my mind about whether ultra fast bakes are a negative or a positive thing.  I'll have to play around with the whole thing and see where it leads.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 04:00:14 PM by David Deas »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #269 on: April 12, 2012, 04:03:36 PM »
I'd love to see the cross section of a 30 second pie if you get another opportunity.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #270 on: April 12, 2012, 07:44:36 PM »
That's cool.  I gotcha coming.  It'll be a few days because I'm remixing this batch of dough to hopefully better suit it.  When I checked the crumb for these last ones I did not notice anything out of the ordinary though.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #271 on: April 12, 2012, 08:06:27 PM »
David, I love that leoparded look but have worked away from it b/c of the undesired aspects of the crumb I would get from my starters.  This yeast sounds really fascinating and could possibly allow for the look while still maintaining a healthy crumb texture.   Your pie reminds me of Toby's Nearlypolitian pies.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.msg87446.html#msg87446

A lot of fun to look at for sure. 

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #272 on: April 12, 2012, 08:25:47 PM »
Towards the tail end of fermentation I like to let a little bit of bacteria into the mix.  They'll play a very subtle sour note at the finish.  Sort of a sweet and sour type of deal.  So the dough does not start out a sourdough, but it ends up as one.

The flour is 00.  Hydration is around 57% or so.  The performance of the dough was fine.  The flavor was just fine, and not overpowering.  But the hydration needed to be increased to probably over 60% I think.  The gluten never degraded one single iota, which is normal for a sourdough and to some extent a pure commercial yeast dough.  I was counting on protein degradation and water release during extended fermentation in order to compensate for the relatively low hydration, but that never occurred.


Thanks David.  Your technique is very interesting especially with the late addition of the bacteria into the mix.  How much culture did you add to the dough in your estimate (% wise)?  How long did you ferment before you added the bacteria into the mix and how many total hours did you ferment the dough before baking?  all room temp fermentation?

Marlon


Online tinroofrusted

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #273 on: April 12, 2012, 08:32:19 PM »
30 seconds! That is really fast. Beautiful leoparding.  And the yeast sounds super interesting too. 

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Regards, 

TinRoof

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #274 on: April 13, 2012, 12:17:53 PM »
David, I love that leoparded look but have worked away from it b/c of the undesired aspects of the crumb I would get from my starters.  This yeast sounds really fascinating and could possibly allow for the look while still maintaining a healthy crumb texture.   Your pie reminds me of Toby's Nearlypolitian pies.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.msg87446.html#msg87446

A lot of fun to look at for sure.  

Toby was an ace with his oven.  Whatever happened to him?

I understand what you mean about gluten degradation and sourdough cultures.

The heavy leapording of the last pie I fired may suggest I need to move toward a different flour at these sorts of temperatures and bake times.  A flour that is even more difficult to brown than Caputo (which is already difficult to brown).  Is there a such thing as 000 flour somewhere?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:21:23 PM by David Deas »


 

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