Author Topic: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....  (Read 47956 times)

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Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #275 on: April 13, 2012, 12:38:48 PM »
Thanks David.  Your technique is very interesting especially with the late addition of the bacteria into the mix.  How much culture did you add to the dough in your estimate (% wise)?  How long did you ferment before you added the bacteria into the mix and how many total hours did you ferment the dough before baking?  all room temp fermentation?

Marlon



I'm not so much adding bacteria as I am letting it in.  To let bacteria in, I simply stop doing the things I'm doing to keep it out.

The first time I worked with this particular culture I did not know anything about what I was doing.  I simply put a small amount of yeast slurry into some dough and let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature.  This resulted in a pure sourdough, which wasn't what I wanted.

So this time I changed a few things.  For one, I frothed the yeast.  For two, I added small amounts of flour each day at a time.  For three, I rotated enough fresh oxygen into the preferment from time to time to give the yeast an advantage.  I did a few other things as well, but you get the gist.  The more the yeast thrive, the less, it seems, the bacteria can gain any traction.

The rest of the questions you ask are very detailed.  Posting from a cell phone is not comfortable enough for me to answer at length.  I'll return to edit this post.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 03:00:47 PM by David Deas »


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #276 on: April 13, 2012, 04:28:07 PM »
Toby was an ace with his oven.  Whatever happened to him?

He is still around from time to time. He goes by "Foolish Poolish" now.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #277 on: April 13, 2012, 04:42:36 PM »
I'm not so much adding bacteria as I am letting it in.  To let bacteria in, I simply stop doing the things I'm doing to keep it out.

The first time I worked with this particular culture I did not know anything about what I was doing.  I simply put a small amount of yeast slurry into some dough and let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature.  This resulted in a pure sourdough, which wasn't what I wanted.

So this time I changed a few things.  For one, I frothed the yeast.  For two, I added small amounts of flour each day at a time.  For three, I rotated enough fresh oxygen into the preferment from time to time to give the yeast an advantage.  I did a few other things as well, but you get the gist.  The more the yeast thrive, the less, it seems, the bacteria can gain any traction.

Do you think the yeast and bacteria in your culture are competing for the same food (unlike typical cultures)? If not, I could see how what you are doing would help the yeast multiply faster, but why would it have a negative effect on the bacteria again unless they were competing for the same food or perhaps your bacteria are obligatory anaerobes?

Im wondering if the relatively high oxygen environment somehow makes your bacteria act more like yeast and you just dont notice them meaning they are producing more CO2 and ethanol and less acids? 
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #278 on: April 13, 2012, 05:36:16 PM »
Do you think the yeast and bacteria in your culture are competing for the same food (unlike typical cultures)? If not, I could see how what you are doing would help the yeast multiply faster, but why would it have a negative effect on the bacteria again unless they were competing for the same food or perhaps your bacteria are obligatory anaerobes?

Im wondering if the relatively high oxygen environment somehow makes your bacteria act more like yeast and you just dont notice them meaning they are producing more CO2 and ethanol and less acids?  


Hmm.

If I were to take a mixture of flour and water and just set it out onto the countertop, within a few days it would begin to smell like buttermilk.  If I were to take an identical mixture of flour and water and add a large enough amount of yeast to it, it would never develop any buttermilk smell.  If I add just the right amount of yeast to a mixture of flour and water, I will get a combination of bacterial activity and yeast activity.

According to my understanding, while yeast and bacteria do enjoy different foods, they also enjoy eating some of the same foods.  There is some overlap present, and it isn't totally insignificant. But I'm not sure the details.

I think of brewing beer.  Much of what you're doing with the wort is keeping out bacteria.  That's basically a huge and difficult part of the job.  And doing that means not only being as sanitary as you can, but making sure the yeast have the clear upper hand in the fermentation process.  If you don't, here come the lactic acid bacteria to ruin everything.

Some of it may have to do with alcohol tolerance.  The alcohol slows down the growth of bacteria.  But lactic acid bacteria are, in fact, quite resistant to alcohol.  Not sure what the mechanisms or combinations of mechanisms are.  Perhaps you have more to add on that?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 05:42:23 PM by David Deas »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #279 on: April 13, 2012, 05:48:11 PM »
I don't know. I think your observation is very interesting. It seemes reasonable to me that the bacteria are still there doing their thing - but maybe it's just a different thing than they do under ordinary culture/dough conditions where there is less oxygen. Even if they are eating the same food supply, are you letting the food supply get to near zero? If not, would the bacteria not still be doing their thing? The yeast may be eating more, but there is still food for the bugs. Helping the yeast only hurts the bacteria if what you're doing to help the yeast also hurts the bacteria (e.g. takes their food, oxygen bad for them, some yeast byproduct hurts them, etc.) Its not intuitive to me how that would be the case here. Just because the yeast are growing faster doesn't automatically mean the bacteria are suppressed, I don't think. I stand to be corrected.

It seems rather different than beer making. As you noted, beer making starts with sanitation. You culture probably starts with bacteria outnumbering your yeast by two or three orders of magnitude.

CL

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #280 on: April 13, 2012, 06:43:19 PM »
If the yeast are growing faster, won't the dough be ready sooner?  Maybe bacteria growth isn't suppressed, but I can see it being limited.  So in a way we can manipulate the balance.  If so, would this also work with any SD starter or just certain yeast cultures like David is using?

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #281 on: April 13, 2012, 07:48:35 PM »
What happened to your member status?

parallei

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #282 on: April 13, 2012, 08:54:46 PM »
Quote
What happened to your member status?

.......








Darn, another self edit......
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 09:00:05 PM by parallei »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #283 on: April 13, 2012, 10:06:16 PM »
I don't know. I think your observation is very interesting. It seemes reasonable to me that the bacteria are still there doing their thing - but maybe it's just a different thing than they do under ordinary culture/dough conditions where there is less oxygen. Even if they are eating the same food supply, are you letting the food supply get to near zero? If not, would the bacteria not still be doing their thing? The yeast may be eating more, but there is still food for the bugs. Helping the yeast only hurts the bacteria if what you're doing to help the yeast also hurts the bacteria (e.g. takes their food, oxygen bad for them, some yeast byproduct hurts them, etc.) Its not intuitive to me how that would be the case here. Just because the yeast are growing faster doesn't automatically mean the bacteria are suppressed, I don't think. I stand to be corrected.

It seems rather different than beer making. As you noted, beer making starts with sanitation. You culture probably starts with bacteria outnumbering your yeast by two or three orders of magnitude.

CL



Not really sure.  But I ended up losing the culture.  It turned into a sourdough.  I've no doubt a very good sourdough, but a sourdough nonetheless.  

Wasn't what I was looking for.

What happened was I tried to feed it too aggressively again.  I took about a 275 gram sample of mother dough and fed it about 0.75 kilograms of flour.  Too much, but I was impatient to do a third test firing.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 10:11:08 PM by David Deas »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #284 on: April 13, 2012, 10:20:58 PM »
What happened to your member status?

good question.  Dunno?  Maybe I need to put more quarters in the meter.

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #285 on: April 13, 2012, 11:01:46 PM »
good question.  Dunno?  Maybe I need to put more quarters in the meter.
:-D

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #286 on: April 13, 2012, 11:21:56 PM »
I'll have to try and find some more barm when I can, Chau.  Shouldn't be long I'm thinking.

In the meantime I have another interesting culture that smells of cheese.  I think it'll make some of the best tasting bread yet, but I just hope it'll be a little easier to work with.  Less temperamental.

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #287 on: April 16, 2012, 01:31:54 PM »
Thanks David.  Your technique is very interesting especially with the late addition of the bacteria into the mix.  How much culture did you add to the dough in your estimate (% wise)?  How long did you ferment before you added the bacteria into the mix and how many total hours did you ferment the dough before baking?  all room temp fermentation?

Marlon



I know I said I'd edit the other post but I think if I do that you'll miss it.

Its important to remember with me, that, what I do depends on what my leavening agent is.  If I have some sort of weird culture, I'll try and go a fermentation route that I feel might coax as much flavor out as possible without impacting the gluten structure.  I try and go right to the edge of the cliff and then stop.  

With this particular barm culture, this is the second time I've ever worked with it.  The first time I worked with it I treated it like any other culture; I added a small amount to a 2.2 pound bag of flour and did a room temperature bulk rise.  That resulted in a pure sourdough.  So I came up with incremental additions as a strategy to keep that from happening in the future.  It worked well.

Initially I was using a preferment.  And to make that preferment I started with a tiny amount of barm that I feed a small amount of flour.  Just before the yeast finished eating I would add more flour, doubling the amount of preferment at each iteration.  Once I had enough preferment to ferment an entire 2.2 pound bag of flour, I stiffened the preferment by adding flour without adding water.  I put this dough ball in the refrigerator.  After some period of time, during which the dough ball turned a light brown hue, I added the rest of the flour and water in order to form the final dough ball.  This dough ball was allowed to bulk rise in the fridge until I got ready to scale and ball.

So as far as ratios, I was roughly doubling each time.  On the last step I added more than double the amount of flour because I knew that by doing that I was giving bacteria their opportunity to come in.  The number of total hours?  I don't know.  The whole process ran over the course of a few days though, so there was some effort involved.  But when you smell rinsed barm, you know that there is no sweeter smell on Earth and you do as much as you can to try and preserve that.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:34:51 PM by David Deas »

Offline Giggliato

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #288 on: April 17, 2012, 02:46:35 PM »
Well.  

There are some key modifications you need to make but it's certainly more than possible.  Posters here have already shown thermocouple isolation, which is one of those things that needs to be done.  Simply moving the thermocouple works well enough.

I have a standard 550 degree oven.

The first thing I noticed when examining the inside of the oven is that it's black.  This may not be ideal.  Although black colored objects typically have a high emissivity, they also have high absorption.  The entire oven interior, including the surface area behind the heating elements, is black.  Because the surface area behind the heating elements is black, that surface is probably going to do a fair job of absorbing radiation and dissipating that energy in the form of radiation, conduction and convection through to the outside of the oven.  This is not ideal.

Ideally you want the heating element to have a view factor of 1 with respect to the pizza, or the pizza stone.  Because the heating elements are round, the view factor is already significantly less.  To increase the effective view factor I mounted a very thin polished aluminum piece directly above the coils with a clearance of about 1 inch.  This will serve as a more effective reflecting surface so that the part of the radiation that would have been transmitted through and lost due to the black surface is now reflected back towards the stone.  Because of aluminum's other characteristics we don't need to worry about it melting unless it touches the heating elements directly.

The next thing I noticed was the size of the compartment I was trying to heat. It had to be reduced, leaving a relatively small compartment size that could be more effectively and efficiently heated.  Here aluminum foil works fine.  So fine in fact that while the top portion of the entire oven compartment is very hot, the bottom portion remains cool to the touch.

These minor modifications result in an oven that hits appropriate temperatures in about 15 minutes and can deliver enough BTU's to the stone surface to leapord a 12 inch pie finished in 40 seconds flat.  Perfect.  Just enough time to tear the basil and mozzarella.

I'll fool with the pictures tomorrow.

This sounds very interesting. I place my stone on the very top rack of my oven, it's 2.5 inches from the electric heat element. Do you think this is too far? Also the thermocouple is directly behind the heating element, do you simply remove the couple from its holder and place it lower in the oven? I'm at about a 4 minute bake time, but If I could get down to a minute I think I might really have something!   :pizza:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 02:48:51 PM by Giggliato »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #289 on: April 17, 2012, 03:17:33 PM »
Yes.  Just detach it and pull it down.  When you get finished simply place it back up.

2.5 inches of clearance is fine.  But you will not get a 60 second bake without a reflective shield behind the heating elements.  Moving the thermocouple by itself will get you down to about 3 minutes give or take, which is in the Varasano range and makes great pizza.  Some might say better.

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #290 on: April 18, 2012, 01:15:24 PM »
Experimental pie #3.  

Since my last batch of dough turned into a sourdough by accident, I prepared a new batch using KAAP.  The protein content of the flour was cut to between 9% and 10% using White Lily flour.  ADY was the leavening agent.  To make up for the reduced protein content, I increased the oven temperature accordingly.  To prevent the bottom from burning, I mopped the stone using water until the stone temperature was around 850 to 875 at launch.

40 second bake (including the time it took to remove and turn the pizza).

Pie accidentally folded some when I was preparing it for photos.  Sloshed away some of the contrast in the middle.  Sucks.

OK.  Here goes, I think:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 01:22:11 PM by David Deas »

Offline fornographer

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #291 on: April 18, 2012, 06:29:48 PM »
How was the flavor of the dough?


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #292 on: April 18, 2012, 07:12:37 PM »
David - Interesting choice of paper plates to serve on  ;)

I was wondering if you had any theories on the micro leoparding you achieve. Most of the leoparding I get is large in nature - yours is closer to Da Michele. I know leoparding is tied to fermentation, but I have not connected the dots fully.

John

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #293 on: April 18, 2012, 10:32:36 PM »
How was the flavor of the dough?

Typical 3 day cold ferment.

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #294 on: April 18, 2012, 10:45:42 PM »
David - Interesting choice of paper plates to serve on  ;)

I was wondering if you had any theories on the micro leoparding you achieve. Most of the leoparding I get is large in nature - yours is closer to Da Michele. I know leoparding is tied to fermentation, but I have not connected the dots fully.

John

In my experience leoparding has to do with two things.  The first is the degree of fermentation, as you have stated.  The second is the intensity of the heat you're applying.  If all other variables are set equal, the more intense the heat applied, the more tiny the leopard spots eventually become.

On the other hand, since the protein content of this flour blend is a little bit lower, it takes a greater degree of effort to leopard the pie at all to begin with.  Too low and I'll end up with even browning.  Tomorrow I'll show you a 4th attempt made with this blend of flour where the heat was slightly lower.  You'll note the effect that had on the appearance of the crust.

One of the things I notice about Da Michele is the intense heat of their ovens.  In fact, I'm not sure it wouldn't be better to call their baking thing a furnace.  I do not, however, know anything about their flour.  Do you know anything about Da Michele's flour?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 11:03:33 PM by David Deas »

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #295 on: April 18, 2012, 11:01:23 PM »
David- Your picture made me really hungry for Arby's! JK, I hate arbys but your pizza looks really good. I can't wait till I move out of my condo and have more room to maybe do something WF.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #296 on: April 19, 2012, 07:16:25 AM »
Thanks for explanation David. How long is your dough out of the fridge before it is baked?

Also I believe Da Michele is using Caputo Pizzeria.

John

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #297 on: April 19, 2012, 08:58:32 AM »
John, The dough is out at least a few hours before it is opened.


OK.  So.  About that 4th attempt.  

This one below was baked from the same batch of blended KAAP and White Lily as the last.  This was later on during the same day.  But it was baked at a slightly lower temperature, which resulted in broader leopard features.  This bake was around 50-55 seconds.

Here goes:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 09:17:37 AM by David Deas »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #298 on: April 19, 2012, 08:58:55 AM »
What I notice about the crumb is that the longer the pie bakes at a given temperature, the less dense the crumb becomes.  Pies that are baked in the 30-40 second range have a more tight celled structure.

(To be extra clear, I haven't yet said anything about the relative softness of the different crumb structures.  Just the appearance).

Here is a crumb shot:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 09:20:50 AM by David Deas »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
« Reply #299 on: April 19, 2012, 08:59:20 AM »
Of course, the stone was mopped with water before the pizza was launched so that the bottom did not char excessively.

Here is a bottom shot:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 09:01:43 AM by David Deas »