My latest NYC Pizzeria style endeavor

[sonofapizza]

Theo, if the recipe isn't secret, would you mind sharing it?

No secret.  True short story....The sauce is from my good freind, Jimmy from Da Bronx (it's impossible to make a bad pizza with a name like that, eh?)  He's the one who taught me most of the tricks I know.  It was 4 years ago...I'd just gotten 'laid off' from a major mortgage company, and I walked right into the pizzeria shop across from our house and said "I wanna learn how to make that pizza"  Jimmy says "Why the F should I show you?".  I replied, "Because I'm unemployed I can't afford to pay for them anymore..."  He laughed.  We became fast freinds, he hired me and taught me recepies he's been using for 25 years.

Here's the sauce recipie. from my other post. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11675.0.html.

The dough, I've been deviating from the 'Jimmy' just a tad, recipie to achieve a decent result in our home oven. 
This is the current dough recipie:
6.5 oz of filtered drinking water, room temp (64% hydration)
Just under a half a teaspoon of ADY (fleichshman's.  Any more than 1tsp and it blows up way to much)
1 teaspoon of salt
1 and a half tablespoons of Vegetable oil (its been turning out a little better than the Olive Oil lately)
wisk that all together really well, with an actual wisk...
Then add 10.5oz of Sunflower Markets generic HiGluten flour (Called manager and he confirmed it to be conagra's generic super market brand?  He may or may not be bulls**ting me) but it is 9 grams of protien per half cup = 15%
I have a Kitchen Aid Classic.  I start the mixer at speed 3, then up to 4 and down to 2 for the last 3 minutes.  Mixing time is 10-12 minutes.  It usually sticks to the bottom of the bowl, at about 2" in diameter when finally ready.  Only thing I don't do, but would really like to, is use fresh (wet) compressed yeast... Bronx Jimmy swears by it.  And I am a sucker for nostalgic unbasised food-lore.  Easier to get a royal flush in vegas, than it is to track down some fresh yeast...

Then I weigh out and ball up 2x 9.2 ounces balls and put them in tupperware, and they go right in the fridge.  no proofing..  Just slow retarding..  They do still expand, but are nice and 'taught' to the touch.  not that fluffy at all, only because I am trying to emulate the pizzeria protocol I worked at.  I hate it when the doughs look great in the pan , but then deflate after you pick them up.

 I build my crust into the doughball first.  Then I 'walk-out' the dough with my fingers, leaving a little "hill" in the middle.  I flip it upsidedown and walk it out a little more then hand strech on a smoothe surface about 5-7 rotations.  Then it's up onto the knuckles for some edge strecthing.  It gets a couple faster speed air tosses, where that little hill in the center flattens out to the same flatness, respectively.  And then I've got an evenly thick blank round , ready for toppings.

 I then spread the tomato sauce, I sprinkle a blend of finely grated Asagio, Parmasean, and Romano around the red pie (not very much at all)

Then comes the Mozz and other final topping, and into the oven she goes...

Oh, and I dunk the doughballs into a 50/50 semolina/bread flour dish and spread some of the 50/50 around the stretching counter-top..  That is what you saw underneath the crust/ slice.
Hope this helps.

-Theo

[sonofapizza]

I'd like to know the type/brand/thickness of the stone and whether the oven has a convection feature and, if so, is it used? Also, is that semolina or cornmeal on the bottom of the pizza?

Peter

Hey Pete.  The stone I think is 15" and a half inch thick?  Does that sound right?  Got it at Target of all places.  Oven is just an everyday 'gas' oven - no convection.  550 max temp....  And yes, that is semolina on the bottom and sides.  Good eye, can't believe you could spot that from my subpar camera shots.

Theo

[scott123]

Great story, Theo.  I'm pretty close with most the pizzeria guys I deal with, but if I ever asked them to teach me, I have no doubt where they'd tell me to go Not that they aren't nice guys, but, this is an incredibly competitive market and you've got to hold your cards close.

Thanks for posting the recipe.  I can see what's going on with the oil, now.  According to my calculations, you're at 7%. I could say that 7% is extremely high for NY style, but, as far as I'm concerned, 7% is so high, it ceases to be NY style at all. Now, if Jimmy's pie happens to be your bliss, I don't want to step on your toes or anything.  If his is the pie you're striving for and he says use x amount of oil, use x amount of oil. You don't mess with people from the Bronx    As I look at the pie in your avatar, though, it's difficult to tell because you can barely see the crumb, but I'm reasonably certain that that pie is not 7%.  I think they might have been oiling the rim before baking (which makes dough oil content even trickier to detect), but, as far as the dough ratios are concerned, it's a typical lean NY style pie- most likely no higher than 3%.

Jimmy was using Kyrol, right?  Kyrol's 14% protein. As I said before, the nutritional label on flour is worthless because all the numbers are rounded.  The Sunflower high gluten is not 15%.  My best guess is 13-ish.  It's definitely lower than Kyrol.  I bring this up because if you are trying to emulate Jimmy's pie and going high oil, you really should stick to his protein level as well, as that much oil will take a slightly weaker flour and impair gluten development (oven spring).

[Jackie Tran]

SOP I like your posts and love the stories as well. Jimmy sounds like a great guy. Thanks for posting the recipe and story.

I have used the 50/50 bench flour mix before with good results when I made one of Peter's Papa Johns clone.

[Pete-zza]

Theo,

I took your numbers and converted everything to baker's percent format and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulation presented below. In so doing, I used the 64% hydration figure you posted since 6.5 ounces of water by weight would be a hydration of 61.91%, not 64%. Based on the total dough batch weight and dough ball weights of 9.10 ounces, and assuming a pizza size of 13", I calculated a corresponding thickness factor of 9.10/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.068576.

High-Gluten Flour (100%): Water (64%): ADY (0.63492%): Salt (1.875%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (6.86571%): Total (173.37563%):

297.67 g  |  10.5 oz | 0.66 lbs 190.51 g  |  6.72 oz | 0.42 lbs 1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 20.44 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.5 tsp | 1.5 tbsp 516.1 g | 18.2 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Dough batch is for two dough balls for two 13" pizzas; corresponding thickness factor = 0.068576 (0.07); no bowl residue compensation

scott123 is correct on the high amount of oil and its inconsistency with the NY style. However, with a thickness factor of only 0.07, the large amount of oil may well insure that the finished crust isn't too dry and cracker-like or overly crispy when baked with your particular oven/stone configuration. If you decide to reduce the amount of oil, you might want to increase the crust thickness (thickness factor). The expanded dough calculating tool makes it easy to make such changes (using the Thickness Factor option).

Like scott123, I place the upper limit of 3% oil for the NY style.

In any event, I think your pizzas look great and I enjoy reading about your exploits.

Peter

[sonofapizza]

I am glad I joined the forum.  To be in the company of individuals who are striving for similar results, is great for me.  I'll be honest though, I get a little intimidated when it comes to scaling recipies up or down.  I can't wait to give that 'Dough Calculator' a swing.  I need to start learning how to get technical with my measurments.  I truly want to recreate the same pie over and over.

Brother Jimmy was kind enough to be one of the few old school pizza guys to part with his wisdom.  I may be incorrect with the scaled down measurments.  I do get oil happy.  I've gotta call him tonight and get a direct idea of how much oil he actually uses.  But, we're talkin' about a guy who uses a "golf-ball" sized piece of fresh yeast and just tosses it in the Hobart.  He says the water temp doesnt really matter (its already hot as Hell in that kitchen of his).  So he just uses filtered water through the whole restaurant, and he absolutely always laughs at the concept of great pizza being defined by it's "crappy local tap water".  he always says, "you want NY style water?  Just add flouride and chlorine to your water...cause dats what they use ta kill all dat crap in their local tap water.."

I just called him to verify the old recepie...Here is what he siad:

Here is his 50lb doudh recepie from the shop: I wrote this down 4 years ago - paper still has oil stain and rock hard dough residue on it...)
1oz fresh yeast ("golfball sized")
1 cup of salt
4 cups Olive Oil
.......3 empty cans of water....from the large 7/11 crushed tomatoes can..what ever the hell amount that is (300grams x 3 cans?).
wisk it all together and let it sit for 5-10 minutes.
Then 50lb bag of KYROL.

He says, "I don't put sugar in NOTHin'"...Which should put a smile on all diabetics' faces...  But horrify those poor unfortunate, Gluten Intolerent souls...roaming the Earth...unable to enjoy slices of Heaven.

Please, if you can, let me know what technical specs of his 50lb dough recipie is

Thanks again for all your critiques and compliments.  I am really learning now.

-Theo.
 

[Pete-zza]

Theo,

If someone has an empty #10 Stanislaus 7/11 can and can tare it and weigh the amount of water needed to fill it, it should be fairly easy to scale that recipe down.

FYI, four cups of olive oil for 50 pounds of flour comes to 3.81%.

Do you know offhand how much dough is used to make a given pizza size? If you have multiple dough ball weights for different size pizzas, so much the better.

Peter

[sonofapizza]

That dough calculator is only in percentages...  Difficulty figuring it out
The 7/11 cans say 300grams on the label.  I would imagine that water wouldnt differ too much in weight... But I dont want to half-ass anything anymore.  My digital scale goes up to 10 lbs.  I'll have to carefully weigh everything out sometime this week.  Forgive my ignorance on the subject...  I can operate a full fledge recording studio, but I can't figure out grams from pounds from ounces....  Maybe it's time to give one of my old pot-dealing college buddies a call, to break it all down for me I know they'd probably say, "Duuuuuude...you've come to the right place, bro......  16oz to a pound, eight eighths to an oz....etc;"

[Pete-zza]

Theo,

All of the dough calculating tools (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html) are based on baker's percents. It's far easier to scale recipes using weights rather than volumes. I'm sure you can grasp the math with a little effort. For a couple of basic articles on baker's percents, see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bakerspercentage.pdf and the multi-part tutorial at http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2008/03/22/bakers-percentage-1/.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I'll have to carefully weigh everything out sometime this week.

Theo,

I only need the weight of the water in one #10 7/11 can. I have conversion data for everything else.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter and Theo,

I had an empty can of 7/11.  I just brought it in from the recycle bin and weighed the can tared out with water.

The water in the 7/11 can weighs 3032 grams.

Norma

[norma427]

I just weighed the water in the can again, filled to the very top, and the weight is now 3114 grams.  I don't know how to go about deciding which one of these weighs should be used.

Norma

[buceriasdon]

Go metric. Much easier to calculate.
Don

That dough calculator is only in percentages...  Difficulty figuring it out
The 7/11 cans say 300grams on the label.  I would imagine that water wouldnt differ too much in weight... But I dont want to half-ass anything anymore.  My digital scale goes up to 10 lbs.  I'll have to carefully weigh everything out sometime this week.  Forgive my ignorance on the subject...  I can operate a full fledge recording studio, but I can't figure out grams from pounds from ounces....  Maybe it's time to give one of my old pot-dealing college buddies a call, to break it all down for me I know they'd probably say, "Duuuuuude...you've come to the right place, bro......  16oz to a pound, eight eighths to an oz....etc;"

[Essen1]

I just weighed the water in the can again, filled to the very top, and the weight is now 3114 grams.  I don't know how to go about deciding which one of these weighs should be used.

You might have added more water then you did in your first weighing hence the difference of 82 grams. It doesn't take much of water to get a difference of 82 grams.

[Essen1]

Theo, if the recipe isn't secret, would you mind sharing it?

Scotty123,

I have followed your threads and advice for quite some time and find them all very refreshing, informative and usable. I also like the way you critique some members efforts and try to help them advance in their pizza making abilities...Kudos and Thumbs up! All of us can learn from it...I know I have.

You also intrigued me to look into a soapstone replacement for my old cordierite stone. But I have one question to ask...I'd love to have your personal dough recipe and would like to see a pic of one of your finished pies! 

Given all the info you have dispersed so far, I'm dying to see how you do it. Perhaps post a video from start to finish on YouTube??? Man, that would be greatly appreciated.

Or even some pics on here would do the trick.

Looking forward to it...and I'm sure many other members, too. 

P.S.: Don't forget to include your sauce recipe!

[sonofapizza]

Peter and Theo,

I had an empty can of 7/11.  I just brought it in from the recycle bin and weighed the can tared out with water.

The water in the 7/11 can weighs 3032 grams.

Norma

You go Norma!

[sonofapizza]

Ok...  I figured out the Lehman's Calculator and made the best dough I've made in my life yet.  Dough didn't even stick to the bottom of the mixing bowl.  negligible bowl residue amount... I've never had that happen before.  The balls weighed .3oz less than the calculator said though - followed everything to the 'T'.  regardless, these are the most pizzeria-like dough balls I've ever made at home.  Thank you...

I will make two pies tomorrow night after the fridge does it's magic.  Here is the calculator screen shot:

[scott123]

Scotty123,

I have followed your threads and advice for quite some time and find them all very refreshing, informative and usable. I also like the way you critique some members efforts and try to help them advance in their pizza making abilities...Kudos and Thumbs up! All of us can learn from it...I know I have.

You also intrigued me to look into a soapstone replacement for my old cordierite stone. But I have one question to ask...I'd love to have your personal dough recipe and would like to see a pic of one of your finished pies! 

Given all the info you have dispersed so far, I'm dying to see how you do it. Perhaps post a video from start to finish on YouTube??? Man, that would be greatly appreciated.

Or even some pics on here would do the trick.

Looking forward to it...and I'm sure many other members, too. 

P.S.: Don't forget to include your sauce recipe!

Mike, thank you for your very kind words.  I have followed your threads and valued your contribution as well.

I've been kind of procrastinating on the camera front- alright, fine, I've been really procrastinating on the camera front  I keep waiting for the prices on the Flip style cameras to come down- they keep adding more features, though, so I think the $170ish price tag is here to stay.  Just this second, I popped over to ebay to see what kind of deals there were on a Flip ultrahd and the prices seemed reasonable. That's probably the route I'll take. I'm going to keep my eye out a little longer, but I promise you, you'll have video from me soon. And it will be my entire process in tremendous detail- soup to nuts.

As far as my sauce recipe goes... that I probably won't be sharing  Although I have my eye on consulting professionally as well as possibly catering large events, a part of me is hoping to eventually have my own place.  I have no issues with my dough recipe floating around (it's honestly almost always changing anyway), but, because of the hyper competitive nature of the pizza business in the NY area, I feel like I need to keep my sauce cards close to my chest.

As I'm sure you're aware, though, I do suffer from a really bad case of male answer syndrome and can't keep my mouth shut, so, if someone really wanted my sauce, my old posts reveal pretty much all the details.  I spent more than a decade reverse engineering the sauce of my favorite local pizzeria, but, at the end of the day, it's not rocket science.  The tomato should be the main player- everything else is just there to supplement the tomato flavor, not detract from it.  I'm also a very firm believer in fresh garlic, not dried and that dried basil is an abomination.

Thanks again.

[norma427]

You might have added more water then you did in your first weighing hence the difference of 82 grams. It doesn't take much of water to get a difference of 82 grams.

Mike,

I can understand that it doesn't take much water to get a difference of 82 grams. Thanks 

I weighed the container with water again after I last posted and saw my scales goes to kg. I didn't know that before, because I never weighed anything that heavy before.  What I thought was grams was really kg.    I checked the weight of the sauce on the label of the can and it was 2.98 kg.  I only then took the water to where the sauce usually is and the water also weighed 2.98 kg.  Sorry for any confusion I caused.

Norma

[scott123]

I will make two pies tomorrow night after the fridge does it's magic.  Here is the calculator screen shot:

I think you're in good shape, Theo.  The only thing I'd adjust, as I mentioned before, is the thickness factor.  10 oz. is a bit too much dough for a 13" pie- at least a 13" pie that resembles the pie that you're striving for in your avatar. I really hate launching a pie that's close to the size of my stone, but if you can try stretching these to 14" I think you'll be better off.