Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 30653 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 09:27:27 AM »
These are the pictures of Steveís pizzas made with his starters.  He can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he said he used 5% for the starter in the preferment calculating tool,  combined with a Lehmann formula.  I am not sure which Lehmann formula he used.  I believe he also said the dough was left to bulk ferment for 8 hours at room temperature, then one day cold ferment, and the dough balls were left to room ferment at market yesterday about 5 to 6 hours in a very hot ambient temperatures.

This is the pizzeria that I was talking about the owner came to visit us yesterday.  The owner told us they use an old dough method, but I couldnít understand what he meant. I asked him if he just used old dough for making the pizza and he said they do use any old dough and donít let any dough waste, but his old dough method must be different. He said they mix some dough, let it ferment, then let it sit for 3 days (I would guess in the colder), incorporate other ingredients and let it sit out for 5 hours, then cold ferments and he said the dough lasts for 3 days. He said the dough doesnít overferment. He also said they use 2 -2 Ĺ oz. of yeast for 50 lbs. of flour.  He felt my dough that was in the pizza prep fridge and also the dough balls there were on the marble slab, warming up and said it was too green to make pizzas with.  He also said they use some kind of oil from Sysco that has olive oil, garlic and other ingredients in to spray the dough balls.  He said the flavored oil soaks into the dough balls. He said he learned these methods to make pizza in Italy.  He also said he has eleven employees, so he must make many pizzas. 

http://www.eatroccos.com/

http://www.eatroccos.com/history.html

Pictures of Steveís pizzas, made with both starters.  His pizzas were 12" pizzas.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2010, 09:29:14 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2010, 09:30:11 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 09:53:43 AM »
Norma, he's using either a biga or pate fermentee with an indirect mixing method referred to as "impasto indiretto".  Based on his explanation, my guess is that he's using the latter of the two.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2010, 10:11:23 AM »
Norma, he's using either a biga or pate fermentee with an indirect mixing method referred to as "impasto indiretto".  Based on his explanation, my guess is that he's using the latter of the two.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for your help in figuring out how he is making his dough.  :)  It sounded interesting to me, especially how he explained how his dough doesnít overferment and how he said the method brings a great taste to the crust. His yeast amounts seemed low to me. I can understand how this method could help the crust taste better.  If I get to talk to him again, I will ask more questions.  This is the second time he was at my stand talking to me.  This time he went into more detail, but not enough that I understood exactly how he went about making his dough for pizzas.  I will have to plan what to ask him, if he visits again.

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2010, 10:30:42 AM »
Matt,

Thanks for your help in figuring out how he is making his dough.  :)  It sounded interesting to me, especially how he explained how his dough doesnít overferment and how he said the method brings a great taste to the crust. His yeast amounts seemed low to me. I can understand how this method could help the crust taste better.  If I get to talk to him again, I will ask more questions.  This is the second time he was at my stand talking to me.  This time he went into more detail, but not enough that I understood exactly how he went about making his dough for pizzas.  I will have to plan what to ask him, if he visits again.

Norma

Norma,
If you're interested in experimenting with a biga I can help you out.

Matt

Offline Ev

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2010, 10:53:47 AM »
Norma, Thanks for posting the photos of my pies.

The first pie was made with the Camoldi starter. The second was made with Ischia. I got these from Norma who was kind enough to share them with me.
 Both pies were made with KASL, 65% hy., 1.75% salt, 5% (total dough) starter and no oil.
 The first pie seemed to be a bit under cooked although I think it was in the oven plenty long. The cheese has the appearance of being overcooked while the crust has almost no color. The second was about the same but with slightly better color. Flavor wise, the first had a slight sour tang to an otherwise unremarkable taste. The second was much better, IMO. Both pies were a bit tough and chewy as they cooled.
 I have another ball of each dough which I'll make for lunch today in my "pizza grill". Photos to follow.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2010, 11:14:31 AM »
Norma,
If you're interested in experimenting with a biga I can help you out.

Matt

Matt,

I would be interested in experimenting with a biga, if you could help me.  I appreciate all the help you have given me.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »
Norma, Thanks for posting the photos of my pies.

The first pie was made with the Camoldi starter. The second was made with Ischia. I got these from Norma who was kind enough to share them with me.
 Both pies were made with KASL, 65% hy., 1.75% salt, 5% (total dough) starter and no oil.
 The first pie seemed to be a bit under cooked although I think it was in the oven plenty long. The cheese has the appearance of being overcooked while the crust has almost no color. The second was about the same but with slightly better color. Flavor wise, the first had a slight sour tang to an otherwise unremarkable taste. The second was much better, IMO. Both pies were a bit tough and chewy as they cooled.
 I have another ball of each dough which I'll make for lunch today in my "pizza grill". Photos to follow.

Steve,

I also agree with the tastes of the pizzas made with your doughs yesterday and when they cooled off how the crust became harder.  I had expected to have more flavor in my crust, made with the starter, but it wasn't meant to be yesterday.  I am anxious to hear how your other bakes will work out in your "pizza grill".   :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2010, 11:29:01 AM »
Norma,

I think Matt may be right about Rocco's use of a pate fermente (see definition at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P), or what I refer to as a "new" old dough. You can read how such a dough is made and used in the Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. See the "Pre-fermented dough" section. It is also possible that Rocco uses leftover dough in some fashion so as not to have to throw it away.

If Rocco uses 2 to 2 1/2 ounces of yeast for 50 pounds (800 ounces) of flour, that comes to 0.25%. That might work for IDY but might be low for ADY or fresh yeast. You might get clarification on that point if Rocco shows up again at your stand. You might also find out what kind/brand of flour he uses if he hasn't already told you.

I wasn't sure I should have entered this post. As your good buddy cranky admonished us recently at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10535.msg107864/topicseen.html#msg107864: Don't give her any ideas. :-D

Peter


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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2010, 12:42:13 PM »
Peter,

I also think Matt is right about Roccoís use of a pate fermente.  The way he explained how he goes about using the preferment sure sounds like that.  Thanks for figuring out how much yeast that would be for 50 lbs. of flour.  I didnít get to ask Rocco about his flour, but I did email his business with questions this morning.  Since he seemed to want to share with me how he made his dough, I didnít think it would hurt.  I donít know if I will get a reply or not, but I might find out more.  If he stops by my stand again, I will have more questions ready.

I know cranky does think I am out in left field and lost sometimes, but I am always interested in learning more about everything. cranky really does help me with gardening and other ideas.  Hope he doesnít read this post.  :-D

Do you have any ideas why my starter pizza turned out so differently yesterday?  The complex flavor in the crust, just wasnít there. It was good, but not outstanding.  I was also surprised how that pizza baked in my deck oven.  Unless I can ever get this all figured out, I will stick with my preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma
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Offline Ev

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2010, 12:48:38 PM »
Wow, what a difference. I heated the pizza grill to almost 700.

Offline Ev

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2010, 12:51:40 PM »
More

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2010, 01:09:21 PM »
Steve,

Your "pizza grill" did make a big difference in the pies from the same dough you used yestereday.  I think I need to look on craigslist for a BBQ grill like yours.  :-D

Your pies look delicious.  :)  How did they taste?  Was there a complex flavor in the crust?

Thanks for posting your results.  I love the fire in the back of your pizza oven.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2010, 01:56:38 PM »
Do you have any ideas why my starter pizza turned out so differently yesterday?  The complex flavor in the crust, just wasnít there. It was good, but not outstanding.  I was also surprised how that pizza baked in my deck oven.  Unless I can ever get this all figured out, I will stick with my preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma,

If I recall correctly, of the last four dough balls you have made, with two of them with the accidentally high preferment quantity and the remaining two with the "correct" preferment quantity, you have one remaining dough ball. If that is correct, then by the time you use the last dough ball (which I believe you have targeted for tomorrow) the four dough balls will have been made and used differently, not only in terms of fermentation protocol but also with different oven configurations. That makes it difficult to compare the results because the biochemistry is different for each dough ball, both quantitatively and qualitatively. Coupled with different bake methods, that makes the analysis very complicated. About the best you can do is rank order the results based on personal preference.

If you liked the results using the larger amount of natural preferment better, then you might want to return to the formulation that gave you those results, to see if they can be recreated and, if so, conduct future experiments with that formulation. Moreover, if your objective is to come up with a naturally leavened dough that you might be able to use at market, I think I would concentrate on that objective until its viability is proven. That will mean having to come up with a fermentation protocol that will fit within the restrictions imposed upon you by the folks who run the market. If time and conditions permit, you might do some experimenting with doughs at home, but I would make that a secondary activity since the results you achieve there might not translate to a market version. You most likely will learn something but it may not be something that will necessarily help you with a market version.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2010, 02:54:07 PM »
Peter,

I have one more dough ball with the corrected amount of starter.  I plan to do the bake on that dough ball on Thursday, if it doesnít ferment too much.

I can understand by using 3 different oven configurations, and different amounts of starters added to the dough,  that it doesnít tell me much of anything and just gets me more confused in how this dough behaves with starters.  I will have to decide what kind of formula and time restraints may all go into making this dough with a starter for market. It might take awhile to figure out if I can use a starter dough in my deck oven.  From what I have seen so far and now with Steveís results in his ďgrill set-upĒ, I have my doubts about what I can achieve at market in the deck oven at the temperatures I normally use.

I had to laugh yesterday when Steve and I were talking to the man that owned Roccoís pizzeria.  He was interested in the starter dough and I let him look at it, after the lid was removed.  He quickly put his nose into the container and proceeded to put his fingers on the dough and feel it.  I said, donít touch that dough, I need to make that into a pizza.  Steve and I both laughed about what I said afterwards.

Thanks for your advise.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2010, 03:03:59 PM »
Norma,

Can you remind me what days you do what with your current preferment Lehmann dough and what equipment you use to make the preferment and final dough? Also, it would be helpful to have some temperatures (even if rough) and timelines.

As for the owner of Rocco's, if I was looking for his trade secrets I would have let him bathe in the dough if he wanted.  :-D

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2010, 06:53:26 PM »
Peter,

Fridays I mix how much poolish I think I will need for Monday, to incorporate into the final preferment Lehmann dough. Then the dough balls are left to cold ferment for one day. I used the formula you set-forth for multipule 15lb. or 10 lb. batches. I watch the weather to think about how many dough balls I might need for Tuesdays and also think about if I have any frozen dough balls.  The equipment I have to mix my dough or poolish is a Hobart mixer that is a 20 qt. mixer.  I have the Hatco Unit that can help the poolish to bubble. That can be used with humidity or not. That could hold plenty of dough to bulk ferment or I also could use my heated, humidified holding cabinet that revolves that holds my whole pies, when they are finished baking.  It is easy to take out the 3 tier revolving stainless steel supports that holds the pies.  That also can hold an even temperature.  I also have enough refrigeration in my deli case to hold enough cold fermenting dough or poolish.  I do have a hot plate to heat water in the winter. My pizza oven is a double deck Bakerís Pride (GP-61) , which is heated with propane gas.  The oven can go to higher bake temperatures than I normally use for the preferment Lehmann dough.  It can reach temperature of around 725 degrees F.  I havenít taken the temperature of the deck oven up many times, but it can get up there in temperatures on the stones.  I have plenty of big Cambro containers with tight fitting lids.  I also have digital scale to weigh out the ingredients for any doughs I make.  If there or other things you need to know about what equipment I have at market, let me know and I will answer if I have that equipment.

The temperatures at market vary greatly.  The market is not air-conditioned and in the winter they turn the propane heaters that are mounted on the ceiling at market, down just enough that pipes donít freeze on non market days.  In the summer the temperatures can and do get up to around 96 degrees F.  In the winter the temperatures of my market stand can be around 44 degrees, when I am working in the stand on non market days.  I do have a ceramic disc heater that I sometimes use in the winter months, to help bring up the temperatures while I am working at the market stand.  The humidity at the market stand can also vary greatly.  In the winter, later fall, and early spring is can be very dry at market.  I have a gauge at market that does measure humidity.  In the summer it can get very humid at market. 

As for the owner of Roccoís pizza, he was very friendly and helpful in giving me information, but I donít like anyone messing with my experiments.  When he told me my preferment Lehmann dough was too green, I really wonder if he knew what he was talking about.  I still do like that dough very much. He also told me that the starter dough ball was not ready and it felt to me that the top was pillowly.  I had at least washed my hands before touching the dough.  Who knows where he had his hands last.  I had told him that the dough in the container was made with a starter from Italy and how I fed the starter and made the dough. He seemed interested in hearing about that.  I think his nose about touched the dough ball, for as fast as he went to smell it, after he had the opened container in his hands.  :-D  I didnít know it before, but he was thinking about opening a pizza stand at Rootís market before I decided to open my stand.  I wonder what would make him want to travel that far for one day a week to operate a one day market stand.  I donít see how he could prepare his dough the way he was telling me he does, when he lives so far away, unless he would bring dough balls from his pizzeria. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2010, 09:00:53 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of your current procedures.

My recollection is that anything that is sold at market, such as your pizzas, must be made at market, with no advance prep at home. If that is true, then it sounds like you would have to use a sequence like the following: get the starter culture (e.g., Ischia) ready on Friday (using whatever means available to do this); use a starter or preferment quantity of the starter culture to make a bulk dough (e.g., 10-15 pounds); ferment the bulk dough at the prevailing ambient temperature at market or, alternatively using the Hatco unit or the holding cabinet; after the bulk dough has fermented and achieved the desired volume expansion, divide it into individual dough balls; put the dough balls in the deli unit and cold ferment them until Tuesday; and, on Tuesday, let the dough balls warm up at the market ambient temperature before using. Does this sequence seem plausible?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2010, 09:40:00 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of your current procedures.

My recollection is that anything that is sold at market, such as your pizzas, must be made at market, with no advance prep at home. If that is true, then it sounds like you would have to use a sequence like the following: get the starter culture (e.g., Ischia) ready on Friday (using whatever means available to do this); use a starter or preferment quantity of the starter culture to make a bulk dough (e.g., 10-15 pounds); ferment the bulk dough at the prevailing ambient temperature at market or, alternatively using the Hatco unit or the holding cabinet; after the bulk dough has fermented and achieved the desired volume expansion, divide it into individual dough balls; put the dough balls in the deli unit and cold ferment them until Tuesday; and, on Tuesday, let the dough balls warm up at the market ambient temperature before using. Does this sequence seem plausible?

Peter


Peter,

You are right.  Under Safe-Serve, any food items I make or prepare to be sold have to be made at market, since I do have a license to prepare food there.  Your sequence does sound plausible.

Norma
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