Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 35418 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2010, 12:42:13 PM »
Peter,

I also think Matt is right about Roccoís use of a pate fermente.  The way he explained how he goes about using the preferment sure sounds like that.  Thanks for figuring out how much yeast that would be for 50 lbs. of flour.  I didnít get to ask Rocco about his flour, but I did email his business with questions this morning.  Since he seemed to want to share with me how he made his dough, I didnít think it would hurt.  I donít know if I will get a reply or not, but I might find out more.  If he stops by my stand again, I will have more questions ready.

I know cranky does think I am out in left field and lost sometimes, but I am always interested in learning more about everything. cranky really does help me with gardening and other ideas.  Hope he doesnít read this post.  :-D

Do you have any ideas why my starter pizza turned out so differently yesterday?  The complex flavor in the crust, just wasnít there. It was good, but not outstanding.  I was also surprised how that pizza baked in my deck oven.  Unless I can ever get this all figured out, I will stick with my preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Ev

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1826
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2010, 12:48:38 PM »
Wow, what a difference. I heated the pizza grill to almost 700.

Offline Ev

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1826
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2010, 12:51:40 PM »
More

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2010, 01:09:21 PM »
Steve,

Your "pizza grill" did make a big difference in the pies from the same dough you used yestereday.  I think I need to look on craigslist for a BBQ grill like yours.  :-D

Your pies look delicious.  :)  How did they taste?  Was there a complex flavor in the crust?

Thanks for posting your results.  I love the fire in the back of your pizza oven.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23189
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2010, 01:56:38 PM »
Do you have any ideas why my starter pizza turned out so differently yesterday?  The complex flavor in the crust, just wasnít there. It was good, but not outstanding.  I was also surprised how that pizza baked in my deck oven.  Unless I can ever get this all figured out, I will stick with my preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma,

If I recall correctly, of the last four dough balls you have made, with two of them with the accidentally high preferment quantity and the remaining two with the "correct" preferment quantity, you have one remaining dough ball. If that is correct, then by the time you use the last dough ball (which I believe you have targeted for tomorrow) the four dough balls will have been made and used differently, not only in terms of fermentation protocol but also with different oven configurations. That makes it difficult to compare the results because the biochemistry is different for each dough ball, both quantitatively and qualitatively. Coupled with different bake methods, that makes the analysis very complicated. About the best you can do is rank order the results based on personal preference.

If you liked the results using the larger amount of natural preferment better, then you might want to return to the formulation that gave you those results, to see if they can be recreated and, if so, conduct future experiments with that formulation. Moreover, if your objective is to come up with a naturally leavened dough that you might be able to use at market, I think I would concentrate on that objective until its viability is proven. That will mean having to come up with a fermentation protocol that will fit within the restrictions imposed upon you by the folks who run the market. If time and conditions permit, you might do some experimenting with doughs at home, but I would make that a secondary activity since the results you achieve there might not translate to a market version. You most likely will learn something but it may not be something that will necessarily help you with a market version.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2010, 02:54:07 PM »
Peter,

I have one more dough ball with the corrected amount of starter.  I plan to do the bake on that dough ball on Thursday, if it doesnít ferment too much.

I can understand by using 3 different oven configurations, and different amounts of starters added to the dough,  that it doesnít tell me much of anything and just gets me more confused in how this dough behaves with starters.  I will have to decide what kind of formula and time restraints may all go into making this dough with a starter for market. It might take awhile to figure out if I can use a starter dough in my deck oven.  From what I have seen so far and now with Steveís results in his ďgrill set-upĒ, I have my doubts about what I can achieve at market in the deck oven at the temperatures I normally use.

I had to laugh yesterday when Steve and I were talking to the man that owned Roccoís pizzeria.  He was interested in the starter dough and I let him look at it, after the lid was removed.  He quickly put his nose into the container and proceeded to put his fingers on the dough and feel it.  I said, donít touch that dough, I need to make that into a pizza.  Steve and I both laughed about what I said afterwards.

Thanks for your advise.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23189
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2010, 03:03:59 PM »
Norma,

Can you remind me what days you do what with your current preferment Lehmann dough and what equipment you use to make the preferment and final dough? Also, it would be helpful to have some temperatures (even if rough) and timelines.

As for the owner of Rocco's, if I was looking for his trade secrets I would have let him bathe in the dough if he wanted.  :-D

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2010, 06:53:26 PM »
Peter,

Fridays I mix how much poolish I think I will need for Monday, to incorporate into the final preferment Lehmann dough. Then the dough balls are left to cold ferment for one day. I used the formula you set-forth for multipule 15lb. or 10 lb. batches. I watch the weather to think about how many dough balls I might need for Tuesdays and also think about if I have any frozen dough balls.  The equipment I have to mix my dough or poolish is a Hobart mixer that is a 20 qt. mixer.  I have the Hatco Unit that can help the poolish to bubble. That can be used with humidity or not. That could hold plenty of dough to bulk ferment or I also could use my heated, humidified holding cabinet that revolves that holds my whole pies, when they are finished baking.  It is easy to take out the 3 tier revolving stainless steel supports that holds the pies.  That also can hold an even temperature.  I also have enough refrigeration in my deli case to hold enough cold fermenting dough or poolish.  I do have a hot plate to heat water in the winter. My pizza oven is a double deck Bakerís Pride (GP-61) , which is heated with propane gas.  The oven can go to higher bake temperatures than I normally use for the preferment Lehmann dough.  It can reach temperature of around 725 degrees F.  I havenít taken the temperature of the deck oven up many times, but it can get up there in temperatures on the stones.  I have plenty of big Cambro containers with tight fitting lids.  I also have digital scale to weigh out the ingredients for any doughs I make.  If there or other things you need to know about what equipment I have at market, let me know and I will answer if I have that equipment.

The temperatures at market vary greatly.  The market is not air-conditioned and in the winter they turn the propane heaters that are mounted on the ceiling at market, down just enough that pipes donít freeze on non market days.  In the summer the temperatures can and do get up to around 96 degrees F.  In the winter the temperatures of my market stand can be around 44 degrees, when I am working in the stand on non market days.  I do have a ceramic disc heater that I sometimes use in the winter months, to help bring up the temperatures while I am working at the market stand.  The humidity at the market stand can also vary greatly.  In the winter, later fall, and early spring is can be very dry at market.  I have a gauge at market that does measure humidity.  In the summer it can get very humid at market. 

As for the owner of Roccoís pizza, he was very friendly and helpful in giving me information, but I donít like anyone messing with my experiments.  When he told me my preferment Lehmann dough was too green, I really wonder if he knew what he was talking about.  I still do like that dough very much. He also told me that the starter dough ball was not ready and it felt to me that the top was pillowly.  I had at least washed my hands before touching the dough.  Who knows where he had his hands last.  I had told him that the dough in the container was made with a starter from Italy and how I fed the starter and made the dough. He seemed interested in hearing about that.  I think his nose about touched the dough ball, for as fast as he went to smell it, after he had the opened container in his hands.  :-D  I didnít know it before, but he was thinking about opening a pizza stand at Rootís market before I decided to open my stand.  I wonder what would make him want to travel that far for one day a week to operate a one day market stand.  I donít see how he could prepare his dough the way he was telling me he does, when he lives so far away, unless he would bring dough balls from his pizzeria. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23189
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2010, 09:00:53 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of your current procedures.

My recollection is that anything that is sold at market, such as your pizzas, must be made at market, with no advance prep at home. If that is true, then it sounds like you would have to use a sequence like the following: get the starter culture (e.g., Ischia) ready on Friday (using whatever means available to do this); use a starter or preferment quantity of the starter culture to make a bulk dough (e.g., 10-15 pounds); ferment the bulk dough at the prevailing ambient temperature at market or, alternatively using the Hatco unit or the holding cabinet; after the bulk dough has fermented and achieved the desired volume expansion, divide it into individual dough balls; put the dough balls in the deli unit and cold ferment them until Tuesday; and, on Tuesday, let the dough balls warm up at the market ambient temperature before using. Does this sequence seem plausible?

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2010, 09:40:00 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of your current procedures.

My recollection is that anything that is sold at market, such as your pizzas, must be made at market, with no advance prep at home. If that is true, then it sounds like you would have to use a sequence like the following: get the starter culture (e.g., Ischia) ready on Friday (using whatever means available to do this); use a starter or preferment quantity of the starter culture to make a bulk dough (e.g., 10-15 pounds); ferment the bulk dough at the prevailing ambient temperature at market or, alternatively using the Hatco unit or the holding cabinet; after the bulk dough has fermented and achieved the desired volume expansion, divide it into individual dough balls; put the dough balls in the deli unit and cold ferment them until Tuesday; and, on Tuesday, let the dough balls warm up at the market ambient temperature before using. Does this sequence seem plausible?

Peter


Peter,

You are right.  Under Safe-Serve, any food items I make or prepare to be sold have to be made at market, since I do have a license to prepare food there.  Your sequence does sound plausible.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23189
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2010, 10:20:12 PM »
Norma,

Out of curiosity, I went back to my Nancy Silverton book Breads from the La Brea Bakery since I remembered that she gave a recipe for making sourdough bread. Somewhere along the way, I converted the recipe to baker's percent format and noted the numbers alongside the recipe. The number that stood out in my memory and that prompted me to go back to revisit the recipe was that she used a natural starter culture (preferment) that was about 30% of the total formula flour. I believe that figure is a bit less than what you used for your "accidental" dough. From my notes, I also saw that I calculated that the preferment was of a consistency very close to that of a classic poolish (it was a little bit wetter). The total formula hydration was 60.9%, and the salt use was 2.2%, both with respect to the total formula flour. As you can see, apart from the preferment numbers, this set of numbers is close to what you use for your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. From the instructions that accompanied the bread recipe, after the final dough was made, it was subjected to a room temperature fermentation at about 70-75 degrees F. The dough doubled in volume in about 3 1/2 to 4 hours.

Ultimately, the dough went into the refrigerator for a cold ferment. However, and here's the rub, Ms. Silverton said to cold ferment the dough for 8-12 hours and no longer than 24 hours. That suggests that it is unlikely that you will be able to use an Ischia preferment that is over 30% of the total formula flour and have the final dough fit within the timeframes you now use at market. You can conduct a simple experiment to see if this is the case, and maybe it is worth trying, but I suspect that you will have to use considerably less than 30+% Ischia preferment to have the dough make it through almost four days of cold fermentation. Fortunately, you at least have the preferment dough calculating tool to be able to easily come up with the numbers for your experiments. Maybe you can try using something between the two values you used for the Ischia preferment to see if that gets you headed in the right direction.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2010, 10:56:08 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for being curious and remembering that Nancy Silverton did give you a recipe for sourdough bread.  I can understand that I will have to experiment with different doughs, when using the Ishcia starter and see what the amount of preferments might be used to achieve a pizza made with the Ischia starter at market. Since the recipe for sourdough bread was probably made at a lower bake temperature, something might work out for a pizza at market.  I will think about all what you have posted over the next week and see if I can think about a formula to try, using the preferment dough calculating tool. My brother is coming to visit in a little over a week, so this project will continue when he leaves.  Your ideas about Nancy Silvertonís sourdough bread recipe are interesting. 

I think the extra dough ball with the starter that I have cold fermenting in the refrigerator, I am going to try and make bread with the dough ball. I canít get any conclusive results with trying another pizza in my home oven or BBQ grill set-up. If the dough ball still looks good until Friday, I will use it in some way. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2010, 07:58:11 PM »
I made bread out of the last dough ball that was cold fermenting in the refrigerator since Sunday, late this afternoon.  I also made some Bruschetta from tomatoes and herbs from my garden and when the bread was cooled and sliced, I turned on the broiler in my oven and toasted some slices of bread and then dressed them with the Bruschetta.

Pictures below,

Norma. 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2010, 07:59:15 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2010, 08:00:12 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Ev

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1826
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2010, 08:09:51 AM »
Ok, now I'm hungry! ::)

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2010, 08:15:52 AM »
Ok, now I'm hungry! ::)

Steve,

Just save one of your dough balls when you make one and try a bread out of one.  It was easy.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Ev

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1826
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2010, 08:24:43 AM »
I will. What temp and for how long did you cook yours?

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2010, 08:39:22 AM »
I will. What temp and for how long did you cook yours?

Steve,

Here is where I posted on how I made this bread. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108984.html#msg108984

Best of luck if you try the bread.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2010, 01:54:31 PM »
Norma,

SO you like the starter pizza flavor, even at low heat?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11700.0;attach=25256;image

Looking at this it looks like the results I got from using 00 at 550, white crust, etc.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2010, 04:17:29 PM »
Norma,

SO you like the starter pizza flavor, even at low heat?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11700.0;attach=25256;image

Looking at this it looks like the results I got from using 00 at 550, white crust, etc.

Jim,

LOL..I made the pizza and the bread with KASL flour, not "00" flour.  I did get better results with the pizza in my BBQ grill set-up, because that can get to higher temperatures.  In my oven at market the pizza didn't brown as much.  When Steve (Ev) did make his pizza with KASL and the starter, he also got better results in his "grill set-up".  I did make one pizza in my home oven, over at the starter thread that browned okay in my home oven, but then I turned on the broiler, for the last minute.  :-D  The bread didn't seem to mind not having high temperatures. 

I see your pizza didn't brown, when you used "00" flour.  I am going to try different starter amounts to see what might happen.  If you are still looking for high-gluten flour, and still live in my area, I can get you some, or they have Kyrol flour (bleached and bromated) at the Country Store between Manheim and Mt. Joy.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2010, 11:01:05 AM »
Norma,

Yes I can imagine the grill setup to be better with starters indeed. No I wasn't saying you were using oo, just comparing the 2 results. You're on a roll, keep at it!

 :chef:
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2010, 11:39:28 AM »
Norma,

Yes I can imagine the grill setup to be better with starters indeed. No I wasn't saying you were using oo, just comparing the 2 results. You're on a roll, keep at it!

 :chef:

Jim,

Even using KASL so far, in making a pizza with starters, with  lower bake temperatures, does seem to give make the crust lighter with recent experiments.  I don't know if I am on a roll or not.  It is too early to know about that.  ::)

If you ever want to play with starters, let me know, I do throw some away.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline DenaliPete

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 289
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2010, 05:46:32 AM »
Norma,

can you summarize your mixing method with the Lehman dough?  I know that it is in Peter's thread somewhere, but there are so many posts there to sift through I'm afraid I'll miss out on the more current mixing methods if any have changed.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23817
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2010, 06:52:39 AM »
Norma,

can you summarize your mixing method with the Lehman dough?  I know that it is in Peter's thread somewhere, but there are so many posts there to sift through I'm afraid I'll miss out on the more current mixing methods if any have changed.

DenaliPete,

This is the formula I used.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007

I first removed the Ischia starter from the fridge and fed it.  When it was bubbling I then hand mixed the dough.  I put the natural sea salt in with the flour, put the starter in with the water, and mixed with a fork.  When most of the dough was incorporated with the flour, then I did hand mixing and kneading. This dough was sticky, but not too bad.  The dough was left to room temperature ferment for about 6 hours.  It more than doubled in size.  I used two different methods of fermenting after I divided the dough into two balls.  The one dough ball was cold fermented for 2 days and then made into a pizza.  I didnít oil either of these dough balls.  The second dough ball was left to room ferment for another two hours after balling.  I then placed that dough ball into the refrigerator for a four day cold ferment.  That is the dough ball I used to make the bread.  I would have used the second dough ball to make a pizza, but am finding I need a higher bake temperature for the current formula I am using.  The pizza did work out well in my BBQ grill set-up, but when baked in my deck oven, the pizza turned out okay, but didnít brown enough  or get enough oven spring for me at the lower temperature of my deck oven. 

I am going to try another percentage of starter incorporated into this dough in the coming weeks, to see what happens.  I believe if you have a high enough temperature in your oven or other set-up this dough formula posted at the beginning of this thread does produce a great pizza.  Steve (Ev) and I were talking yesterday and he baked his pies in his ďgrill set-upĒ.  He said there was a difference between night and day of how this formula works at higher temperatures.  He also said the crust tasted great.

If I can be of any other help, just ask.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

pizzapan