Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Out of curiosity, I went back to my Nancy Silverton book Breads from the La Brea Bakery since I remembered that she gave a recipe for making sourdough bread. Somewhere along the way, I converted the recipe to baker's percent format and noted the numbers alongside the recipe. The number that stood out in my memory and that prompted me to go back to revisit the recipe was that she used a natural starter culture (preferment) that was about 30% of the total formula flour. I believe that figure is a bit less than what you used for your "accidental" dough. From my notes, I also saw that I calculated that the preferment was of a consistency very close to that of a classic poolish (it was a little bit wetter). The total formula hydration was 60.9%, and the salt use was 2.2%, both with respect to the total formula flour. As you can see, apart from the preferment numbers, this set of numbers is close to what you use for your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. From the instructions that accompanied the bread recipe, after the final dough was made, it was subjected to a room temperature fermentation at about 70-75 degrees F. The dough doubled in volume in about 3 1/2 to 4 hours.

Ultimately, the dough went into the refrigerator for a cold ferment. However, and here's the rub, Ms. Silverton said to cold ferment the dough for 8-12 hours and no longer than 24 hours. That suggests that it is unlikely that you will be able to use an Ischia preferment that is over 30% of the total formula flour and have the final dough fit within the timeframes you now use at market. You can conduct a simple experiment to see if this is the case, and maybe it is worth trying, but I suspect that you will have to use considerably less than 30+% Ischia preferment to have the dough make it through almost four days of cold fermentation. Fortunately, you at least have the preferment dough calculating tool to be able to easily come up with the numbers for your experiments. Maybe you can try using something between the two values you used for the Ischia preferment to see if that gets you headed in the right direction.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for being curious and remembering that Nancy Silverton did give you a recipe for sourdough bread.  I can understand that I will have to experiment with different doughs, when using the Ishcia starter and see what the amount of preferments might be used to achieve a pizza made with the Ischia starter at market. Since the recipe for sourdough bread was probably made at a lower bake temperature, something might work out for a pizza at market.  I will think about all what you have posted over the next week and see if I can think about a formula to try, using the preferment dough calculating tool. My brother is coming to visit in a little over a week, so this project will continue when he leaves.  Your ideas about Nancy Silverton’s sourdough bread recipe are interesting. 

I think the extra dough ball with the starter that I have cold fermenting in the refrigerator, I am going to try and make bread with the dough ball. I can’t get any conclusive results with trying another pizza in my home oven or BBQ grill set-up. If the dough ball still looks good until Friday, I will use it in some way. 

Norma

[norma427]

I made bread out of the last dough ball that was cold fermenting in the refrigerator since Sunday, late this afternoon.  I also made some Bruschetta from tomatoes and herbs from my garden and when the bread was cooled and sliced, I turned on the broiler in my oven and toasted some slices of bread and then dressed them with the Bruschetta.

Pictures below,

Norma. 

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Ev]

Ok, now I'm hungry!

[norma427]

Ok, now I'm hungry!

Steve,

Just save one of your dough balls when you make one and try a bread out of one.  It was easy.

Norma

[Ev]

I will. What temp and for how long did you cook yours?

[norma427]

I will. What temp and for how long did you cook yours?

Steve,

Here is where I posted on how I made this bread. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108984.html#msg108984

Best of luck if you try the bread. 

Norma

[NY pizzastriver]

Norma,

SO you like the starter pizza flavor, even at low heat?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11700.0;attach=25256;image

Looking at this it looks like the results I got from using 00 at 550, white crust, etc.

[norma427]

Norma,

SO you like the starter pizza flavor, even at low heat?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11700.0;attach=25256;image

Looking at this it looks like the results I got from using 00 at 550, white crust, etc.

Jim,

LOL..I made the pizza and the bread with KASL flour, not "00" flour.  I did get better results with the pizza in my BBQ grill set-up, because that can get to higher temperatures.  In my oven at market the pizza didn't brown as much.  When Steve (Ev) did make his pizza with KASL and the starter, he also got better results in his "grill set-up".  I did make one pizza in my home oven, over at the starter thread that browned okay in my home oven, but then I turned on the broiler, for the last minute.    The bread didn't seem to mind not having high temperatures. 

I see your pizza didn't brown, when you used "00" flour.  I am going to try different starter amounts to see what might happen.  If you are still looking for high-gluten flour, and still live in my area, I can get you some, or they have Kyrol flour (bleached and bromated) at the Country Store between Manheim and Mt. Joy.

Norma

[NY pizzastriver]

Norma,

Yes I can imagine the grill setup to be better with starters indeed. No I wasn't saying you were using oo, just comparing the 2 results. You're on a roll, keep at it!

 

[norma427]

Norma,

Yes I can imagine the grill setup to be better with starters indeed. No I wasn't saying you were using oo, just comparing the 2 results. You're on a roll, keep at it!

 

Jim,

Even using KASL so far, in making a pizza with starters, with  lower bake temperatures, does seem to give make the crust lighter with recent experiments.  I don't know if I am on a roll or not.  It is too early to know about that. 

If you ever want to play with starters, let me know, I do throw some away.

Norma

[DenaliPete]

Norma,

can you summarize your mixing method with the Lehman dough?  I know that it is in Peter's thread somewhere, but there are so many posts there to sift through I'm afraid I'll miss out on the more current mixing methods if any have changed.

[norma427]

Norma,

can you summarize your mixing method with the Lehman dough?  I know that it is in Peter's thread somewhere, but there are so many posts there to sift through I'm afraid I'll miss out on the more current mixing methods if any have changed.

DenaliPete,

This is the formula I used.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007

I first removed the Ischia starter from the fridge and fed it.  When it was bubbling I then hand mixed the dough.  I put the natural sea salt in with the flour, put the starter in with the water, and mixed with a fork.  When most of the dough was incorporated with the flour, then I did hand mixing and kneading. This dough was sticky, but not too bad.  The dough was left to room temperature ferment for about 6 hours.  It more than doubled in size.  I used two different methods of fermenting after I divided the dough into two balls.  The one dough ball was cold fermented for 2 days and then made into a pizza.  I didn’t oil either of these dough balls.  The second dough ball was left to room ferment for another two hours after balling.  I then placed that dough ball into the refrigerator for a four day cold ferment.  That is the dough ball I used to make the bread.  I would have used the second dough ball to make a pizza, but am finding I need a higher bake temperature for the current formula I am using.  The pizza did work out well in my BBQ grill set-up, but when baked in my deck oven, the pizza turned out okay, but didn’t brown enough  or get enough oven spring for me at the lower temperature of my deck oven. 

I am going to try another percentage of starter incorporated into this dough in the coming weeks, to see what happens.  I believe if you have a high enough temperature in your oven or other set-up this dough formula posted at the beginning of this thread does produce a great pizza.  Steve (Ev) and I were talking yesterday and he baked his pies in his “grill set-up”.  He said there was a difference between night and day of how this formula works at higher temperatures.  He also said the crust tasted great.

If I can be of any other help, just ask.

Norma

[norma427]

I got my Kitchen Aid mixer deal from Ebay today and couldn’t wait to try it.  I mixed this formula tonight.  I had tried to activate my Ischia starter yesterday by feeding it, but it didn’t seem to bubble enough, so it went into the refrigerator last evening.  I had to feed it two times today to get it activated enough to mix this dough. 

This is for a 12" pizza 

Formula Ischia Starter Nancy's method

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                    202.53 g  |  7.14 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60.9%):                    123.34 g  |  4.35 oz | 0.27 lbs
Salt (2.2%):                         4.46 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Total (163.1%):                  330.32 g | 11.65 oz | 0.73 lbs | TF = 0.103022

Preferment:
Flour:                 30.38 g | 1.07 oz | 0.07 lbs
Water:                 30.38 g | 1.07 oz | 0.07 lbs
Total:                  60.76 g | 2.14 oz | 0.13 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:              172.15 g | 6.07 oz | 0.38 lbs
Water:                92.96 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs
Salt:                          4.46 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Preferment:        60.76 g | 2.14 oz | 0.13 lbs
Total:               330.32 g | 11.65 oz | 0.73 lbs  | TF = 0.103022

Pictures below of mixer and dough

Norma

[norma427]

The dough I made in the last post was left to bulk fermented for 4 hrs. and then balled with a little flour.  This morning the dough looks a lot different than my previous attempts the next day.  There are bubbles on the bottom of the dough ball, but they look a lot smaller than my other attempts the next day.

Picture below of top and bottom of dough ball.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I wanted to ask you a question about the dough I made from your post at Reply 60  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108853.html#msg108853

I think I followed Nancy Silverton’s formula right for what you had posted about a sourdough bread, but I am not sure.  In the post you made you said the rub was that dough wasn’t supposed to be cold fermented for more than 24 hours, after the initial bulk rise.

I have been watching that dough ball since Friday evening and it seems to be fermenting slower than my previous dough balls, using a starter.  I wonder if you know why it seems to be fermenting slower. I don’t know since using a higher salt amount in the formula if this might also be affecting the fermentation of the dough ball.  Since I never used a Kitchen Aid mixer before and have always mixed by hand at home, I don’t know if the initial dough was mixed better or if it was just the formula that is making this dough behave better.  If this dough lasts until Tuesday (which right now it looks like it will), then I will try to make a pizza at market from this dough ball.

Sorry to be asking you these questions, but I am trying to understand what is happening with this dough ball.  The bubbles also seem to be smaller on the bottom of the dough ball.  The top of the dough ball is still firm.

This dough ball was just an experiment to see what would happen with using the amount of starter and salt values that Nancy Silverton used for sourdough bread. 

Pictures below of the dough ball this morning.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When I posted the reply you referenced, I left out some of the Silverton steps since she was making bread rather than pizza and I didn't want to confuse you with all of the other details. For example, she used a classic autolyse (20 minutes) before adding the salt and finishing the knead, a first fermentation at a room temperature of 70-75 degrees F for 3 1/2-4 hours (to achieve doubling of the dough), pre-shaping and dividing the bulk dough into dough pieces, letting the individual dough pieces rest (15 minutes), shaping the dough pieces into round balls, conducting an intermediate proofing of the dough balls at a room temperature of 70-75 degrees F for one hour (to allow the dough balls to rise by about a quarter), and then retarding the dough balls in the refrigerator for 8-12 hours but not more than 24 hours. Ms. Silverton was also using more dough than you used for your latest experiment, which might have had different fermentation characteristics. With all of the differences, I wasn't sure how your dough would perform using similar baker's percents but not all of the intermediate steps. I felt the best way to find out was to just try an experiment along the lines you conducted with your latest dough.

It is also possible that the higher salt amount slowed down the fermentation of your dough but, at about 30% poolish (with respect to the total flour weight), I am not sure if the added salt would impede the fermentation that much. It is also possible that your Ischia culture/preferment was not quite ready for prime time. If you achieve good results on Tuesday, you will perhaps want to do a few more iterations of the formulation to confirm your results, or make adjustments based on those results.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

I have the book but was wondering on which page you found the instructions. There are several instructions for starters, etc.

Thanks...