Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 39003 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2010, 08:07:16 PM »
The Ischia starter incorporated into the Lehmann dough pizza was made this evening in my BBQ grill set-up on a soapstone.  I set-up the BBQ grill a little different with the steel pan with the firebricks inside, and then placed another steel pan of top of the other pan.  I also placed wood chips for BBQ grills in an aluminum pouch, poked with holes.  The wood was cherry. 

I think this dough ball could have gone another day, because there were no bubbles on the top of the dough and the top of the dough ball was still firm, but the bottom of the dough ball sure did look like it was fermenting.  The dough ball was left out to warm up for one hour.  The dough ball was easy to open and it was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, blend of cheese and some mozzarella Steve had made.  Pepperoni was placed on top of the cheeses.  When the pie was baked, basil was placed on top. 

There was only one problem with this bake.  I forgot my BBQ grill set-up isn’t big enough for a 14" pizza, so when I launched it into the oven, the one edge hit the back firebricks and made one part of the rim dented. 

Pictures below,

Norma
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 08:12:33 PM by norma427 »


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2010, 08:09:12 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2010, 08:10:48 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2010, 09:08:38 PM »
Norma,

To help me keep things straight, can you briefly summarize the fermentation history/times of the last two dough balls that you used to make pizzas?

Although the latest pizza was baked in a different oven configuration, can you tell us how it compared with the pizza made with the first dough ball, and which of the two pizzas you preferred, and why?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2010, 10:02:38 PM »
Peter,

The Ishcia starter was fed on Wednesday morning and I used the formula at the beginning of this thread to make enough dough for two dough balls at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007   The starter was active in about 2 ½ hrs.  I then mixed the starter into the Lehmann dough and let it bulk ferment for about 6 hrs.  The first dough ball I used to make a pizza at Reply #7 was balled and then room fermented for 2 more hours, balled a second time, before it was place in the fridge.  The dough ball I used to today to make the pizza was balled right after the bulk ferment on Wednesday.  It has been cold fermenting until today. 

I enjoyed the pizza made tonight better than the one I made Friday. The crust had a better flavor in my opinion. I never have tasted a complex taste in the crust before I started making pizza with the Ischia starter. I have enjoyed the other tastes of the crusts of some of the pizzas I made and also most of them with longer fermentation times and also the preferment for the Lehmann dough, but these crusts are different.  I don’t know if it was because of the higher bake temperature or not, but I also enjoyed the char on the bottom of todays pizza and the different flavor in the crust.  If I had to pick one pizza, just based on the toppings, I would have a hard time doing that, because I liked both toppings.  The BBQ grill set-up does a quicker bake.  When I was opening the dough ball tonight, I remembered my BBQ grill set-up doesn’t bake a 14" pie, so the opened skin was a little thicker than Fridays skin.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 08:05:21 AM by norma427 »

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2010, 06:02:46 AM »
Norma it looks really fantastic.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2010, 08:02:57 AM »
Norma it looks really fantastic.

DenaliPete,

Thanks for saying the pizza looks fantastic.  :)  I am just venturing into the world of the Ischia starter, without using commercial yeast in the dough. I really like how the Ischia starter gives great flavor to the crust. with different ferment times. I still have a lot to learn about using starters and doing bulk room ferments. I still have no idea where this will take me in learning more about making pizza, but I am enjoying learning about using starters.  I really like watching how the dough ferments at room temperature and also while in the fridge, while it is cold fermenting.  From my other experiences with different doughs and using commercial yeast, this starter acts a lot different.  I did try natural starters made from the "wild yeast" in the air, but those starters didn't seem to have as much leavening power as the Ischia starter.

Norma




Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2010, 09:55:28 AM »
I'm glad that you mentioned that Norma,

I had recently lost my camoldi due to a long dormancy period and was attempting to revive my ischia but decided to just re-order the starters from Ed.

While I was waiting for them to arrive though I tried my hand at capturing my own wild yeast.  One I sat down on the porch outside for a few days with rye flour and water, the other I stored inside the house in a giant locking bin containing only the bowl and a few handfulls of alaskan fireweed (Trying to maximize any chance that I would catch some yeast from the fireweed itself).

In nurturing both of them I definitely notice I don't get an incredible amount of rise from either after feedings.  However, I'm not sure if this is because they are more liquidy or if they just aren't real strong.  I prefer my starter more liquidy because I feel its easier to work with and measure, but I'm very much a baby in the world of starters.  I'm not sure I would get great leavening from either culture yet at this point, though I'm really hoping the fireweed one will take off and thrive.

Anyhow, I don't want to hijack your thread Norma, but I am very interested to hear your results as you tweak and change things here and there.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2010, 10:22:38 AM »
DenaliPete,

I hope your “wild yeast” starters do take off and do well. You aren’t high jacking my thread.  I am always interested in what other members are learning and trying.  I also gain knowledge from experiments they do.

I played around with my “wild yeast” starters and a biga on this thread and replys: Toby helped me with my “wild yeast” starters.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg86978.html#msg86978
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87064.html#msg87064
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88032.html#msg88032
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88104.html#msg88104
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88349.html#msg88349
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88877.html#msg88877
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88991.html#msg88991
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg89606.html#msg89606

and Matt’s great dough and pies with starters at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87169.html#msg87169
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87186.html#msg87186
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88278.html#msg88278

I will keep this thread updated on what I try, in case someone might also want to try the formulas I try or how long I let the dough ferment. 

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2010, 07:53:58 PM »
These are two pictures of one of the dough balls I made yesterday, with the corrected amount of starter.  I am going to let this dough ball try to cold ferment until Thursday.  The other dough ball I made yesterday, I am going to bake in the deck oven tomorrow.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2010, 10:11:31 PM »
The one dough ball that was made on Sunday was baked in the deck oven today.  Steve and I kept getting ready to make the pizza out of the dough ball, but we kept having to make pizzas for customers.  Since it was hot in our area today, the dough ball sat out longer than I wanted it to.  The temperature outside was 94 degrees F.  Inside, at my stand the temperatures really got hot today and standing in front of the oven, didn’t help.  Since Steve finished his WFO this morning he brought us something to celebrate with.  He makes Mead and bought some regular Mead and also some Cherry Mead.  I had never tasted Mead before, or even knew what it was.  We celebrated his finished WFO with Mead.  Steve also bought two dough balls.  One dough ball was KASL mixed with the  Ischia starter and one dough ball was made with KASL and the Camaldoli starter.  I will post pictures tomorrow of his dough and the pictures of his finished pizzas made with the starters.  He made his dough balls with the starters yesterday.

I think I am already starting to have problems with using starters.  What I can’t understand about the pie Steve and I baked in my deck oven was, this pizza didn’t turn out anything like the pizzas I made at home with the starters.  I don’t know at this time, but maybe this formula doesn’t have enough starter added.  The dough ball did get a small bubble in the top of the dough ball from sitting out for the warm-up.  Also this crust didn’t taste anything like the other pizzas I made at home, when I used more starter by accident.  The taste of this crust didn’t have the complex flavors that the pies I baked at home did.  The crust was good, but no better than the regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  The pie was dressed with tomato sauce and cheese. 

We also had some interesting visitors today at market.  One man was from a pizzeria in Gettysburg and talked to Steve and me for awhile.  He said my regular preferment Lehmann dough was too green.  He told us basically how he makes his dough, but he kept talking so fast that it was hard to understand all what he said. He didn’t buy any pizza, but we showed him the dough ball made with the starter. We also had customers from Manhattan and they were also very interesting.  They talked awhile and bought slices of the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  They likened those pies with the better New York pies. 

Pictures below of the Mead and pizza made in the deck oven. Last picture is of a slice of Preferment Lehmann pizza.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2010, 10:12:33 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2010, 10:13:57 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2010, 10:15:14 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2010, 10:16:22 PM »
last of pictures

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 09:27:27 AM »
These are the pictures of Steve’s pizzas made with his starters.  He can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he said he used 5% for the starter in the preferment calculating tool,  combined with a Lehmann formula.  I am not sure which Lehmann formula he used.  I believe he also said the dough was left to bulk ferment for 8 hours at room temperature, then one day cold ferment, and the dough balls were left to room ferment at market yesterday about 5 to 6 hours in a very hot ambient temperatures.

This is the pizzeria that I was talking about the owner came to visit us yesterday.  The owner told us they use an old dough method, but I couldn’t understand what he meant. I asked him if he just used old dough for making the pizza and he said they do use any old dough and don’t let any dough waste, but his old dough method must be different. He said they mix some dough, let it ferment, then let it sit for 3 days (I would guess in the colder), incorporate other ingredients and let it sit out for 5 hours, then cold ferments and he said the dough lasts for 3 days. He said the dough doesn’t overferment. He also said they use 2 -2 ½ oz. of yeast for 50 lbs. of flour.  He felt my dough that was in the pizza prep fridge and also the dough balls there were on the marble slab, warming up and said it was too green to make pizzas with.  He also said they use some kind of oil from Sysco that has olive oil, garlic and other ingredients in to spray the dough balls.  He said the flavored oil soaks into the dough balls. He said he learned these methods to make pizza in Italy.  He also said he has eleven employees, so he must make many pizzas. 

http://www.eatroccos.com/

http://www.eatroccos.com/history.html

Pictures of Steve’s pizzas, made with both starters.  His pizzas were 12" pizzas.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2010, 09:29:14 AM »
more pictures

Norma


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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2010, 09:30:11 AM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 09:53:43 AM »
Norma, he's using either a biga or pate fermentee with an indirect mixing method referred to as "impasto indiretto".  Based on his explanation, my guess is that he's using the latter of the two.

Matt

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2010, 10:11:23 AM »
Norma, he's using either a biga or pate fermentee with an indirect mixing method referred to as "impasto indiretto".  Based on his explanation, my guess is that he's using the latter of the two.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for your help in figuring out how he is making his dough.  :)  It sounded interesting to me, especially how he explained how his dough doesn’t overferment and how he said the method brings a great taste to the crust. His yeast amounts seemed low to me. I can understand how this method could help the crust taste better.  If I get to talk to him again, I will ask more questions.  This is the second time he was at my stand talking to me.  This time he went into more detail, but not enough that I understood exactly how he went about making his dough for pizzas.  I will have to plan what to ask him, if he visits again.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2010, 10:30:42 AM »
Matt,

Thanks for your help in figuring out how he is making his dough.  :)  It sounded interesting to me, especially how he explained how his dough doesn’t overferment and how he said the method brings a great taste to the crust. His yeast amounts seemed low to me. I can understand how this method could help the crust taste better.  If I get to talk to him again, I will ask more questions.  This is the second time he was at my stand talking to me.  This time he went into more detail, but not enough that I understood exactly how he went about making his dough for pizzas.  I will have to plan what to ask him, if he visits again.

Norma

Norma,
If you're interested in experimenting with a biga I can help you out.

Matt

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2010, 10:53:47 AM »
Norma, Thanks for posting the photos of my pies.

The first pie was made with the Camoldi starter. The second was made with Ischia. I got these from Norma who was kind enough to share them with me.
 Both pies were made with KASL, 65% hy., 1.75% salt, 5% (total dough) starter and no oil.
 The first pie seemed to be a bit under cooked although I think it was in the oven plenty long. The cheese has the appearance of being overcooked while the crust has almost no color. The second was about the same but with slightly better color. Flavor wise, the first had a slight sour tang to an otherwise unremarkable taste. The second was much better, IMO. Both pies were a bit tough and chewy as they cooled.
 I have another ball of each dough which I'll make for lunch today in my "pizza grill". Photos to follow.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2010, 11:14:31 AM »
Norma,
If you're interested in experimenting with a biga I can help you out.

Matt

Matt,

I would be interested in experimenting with a biga, if you could help me.  I appreciate all the help you have given me.  :)

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »
Norma, Thanks for posting the photos of my pies.

The first pie was made with the Camoldi starter. The second was made with Ischia. I got these from Norma who was kind enough to share them with me.
 Both pies were made with KASL, 65% hy., 1.75% salt, 5% (total dough) starter and no oil.
 The first pie seemed to be a bit under cooked although I think it was in the oven plenty long. The cheese has the appearance of being overcooked while the crust has almost no color. The second was about the same but with slightly better color. Flavor wise, the first had a slight sour tang to an otherwise unremarkable taste. The second was much better, IMO. Both pies were a bit tough and chewy as they cooled.
 I have another ball of each dough which I'll make for lunch today in my "pizza grill". Photos to follow.

Steve,

I also agree with the tastes of the pizzas made with your doughs yesterday and when they cooled off how the crust became harder.  I had expected to have more flavor in my crust, made with the starter, but it wasn't meant to be yesterday.  I am anxious to hear how your other bakes will work out in your "pizza grill".   :)

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2010, 11:29:01 AM »
Norma,

I think Matt may be right about Rocco's use of a pate fermente (see definition at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P), or what I refer to as a "new" old dough. You can read how such a dough is made and used in the Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. See the "Pre-fermented dough" section. It is also possible that Rocco uses leftover dough in some fashion so as not to have to throw it away.

If Rocco uses 2 to 2 1/2 ounces of yeast for 50 pounds (800 ounces) of flour, that comes to 0.25%. That might work for IDY but might be low for ADY or fresh yeast. You might get clarification on that point if Rocco shows up again at your stand. You might also find out what kind/brand of flour he uses if he hasn't already told you.

I wasn't sure I should have entered this post. As your good buddy cranky admonished us recently at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10535.msg107864/topicseen.html#msg107864: Don't give her any ideas. :-D

Peter


 

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