Author Topic: Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven  (Read 1585 times)

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Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« on: August 28, 2010, 11:33:32 PM »
Hey Guys,

I just lashed out and got a new single deck with stone base for home use in China (pizzas here crap). Was looking at the recipe at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=8933#8933 to use to get started and hoped you could give a little advice. Considering I plan to use pizza tray-

What temp do you suggest I set for bottom (stone)?
What temp do you suggest I set on top (ambient)?
How long should the pizza bake?
How will it effect the mix if I substitute 20% semolina to the mix?

Also I've seen A'taglio pizza baked on large square trays in italy and then slices heated directly on stone before serving. If I bake on tray first is it worth slipping it off part way through baking and putting it directly onto stone to crisp base?

Thanks in advance for your assistance!

Been posted here couple of years and I miss good pizza....

« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:26:57 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 11:13:28 AM »
Sorry, referring to this recipe linked earlier:

We just got back from the NAPICS show and here is the dough formula that we were using to make a great New York style pizza.
Flour: (Superlative) 100%
Salt 1.75%
Sugar 1% only if you want to hold the dough up to 3 days, if you will only hold the dough two days delete the sugar.
Yeast IDY 0.375%
Olive oil 3%
Water 57% (variable)


BTW- I'm not opening anything. I've a 3 year contract left in China with a car manufacturer and want to be Pizza King of the expat neighbourhood. I bought one of these cause they were cheap here and it was easy to get- a commercial single deck oven made here apparently for export- just looking for advice where to start.

THIS is what I bought: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=5434256316&cm_cat=50029258

Thanks

« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:38:33 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott123

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2010, 12:35:50 PM »
Yulong, tell us a little bit more about your oven.  I tried translating the specs via babelfish and didn't get far.

What material is the stone hearth? Is it gray/cement like or is it kind of tan/yellowish? How thick is the hearth?

Is the ceiling stone as well or is it just a heating element? How far is the ceiling to the hearth?

How hot does the oven go?

In your profile you mention Pizza Street.  Pizza Street is NY Style (most likely done on a conveyor).  In your post, though, you mention Al Taglio.  Assuming it can go high enough, you have, imo, the perfect oven for NY Style (using a peel). When you get into pan pizza, that complicates things tremendously. Most pans are not ideal for deck ovens, as they have a tendency to warp.  Once a pan warps it doesn't contact the stone correctly and you get uneven baking.  Screens are little better, but, because of the lack of direct contact with the stone, oven spring is reduced.

A lot of Sicilian folks spend a great deal of time looking for the right pan, and, from the research that I've done, there is no single pan that guarantees perfect results without the potential for warping.  Cast iron pans won't warp, but, at the same time, they're not that conductive, so you need to use them at higher temperatures.  They're also expensive and hard to find.

If Al Taglio is your dream, go for it.  But I can promise you that you'll have a much easier time making the style that your deck oven was engineered to make: NY.

What kind of flours do you have at your disposal? Are any of them high gluten/high protein? Ideally, you want something close to 14% protein.

Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 01:03:03 PM »
Hi Scott,

Thanks for your reply. The stone is grey/cement like and the ceiling has element. Temp is in Celsius and says up to 500 degrees with control for both top and bottom element. I'm out of town until tomorrow but estimate the ceiling is 200-250mm from hearth. Will get back to you later on that and not sure of the stone thickness.

I love all Pizza! Had a Pizza in Belgium at a place called Pizza Street which was great neapolitan style which is probably my fav but depends on the mood. Love NY and love Sicilian A'Taglio too.

Would like to make them all. While I like all the trad styles I like to mix it up as well and have a good variety of toppings- sometimes a little more than would work on a NY pizza (BIG meatballs)- which is why I thought pan and then crisping the bottom directly on the stone.

Flour wise I've heard there is one brand of Italian import which may be 00 but very expensive. Also Gold Medal Brand bread flours. Then of course are Chinese and Hong Kong flours. I did speak to a restauranteur here that recommended a Hong Kong flour but I'll have to get the brand from him again as all details are in Chinese which I do not read so hard to see any detail and things like protein percent.

There is also a semolina flour with the bread flours at 1 supermarket here I've found which I wondered might help if the flour itself isn't the best. Thoughts?

Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »
BTW- Bought the oven + delivery for total USD$380.00. Seems ridiculously cheap- getting the electricity installed nearly cost as much and I'll have it on in 2 days. Got to get ready- very excited. Hope it works.

Offline norma427

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 01:14:10 PM »
yulong,

I do make a NY style and a Sicilian pizza in my deck oven, at my small market stand. These are just a few of the pictures at Reply 460.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg99521.html#msg99521 The first picture is a NY style, but made with a preferment and the second and third pictures down in that post are the Sicilian style.  The only difference in the way I bake are the regular pizzas are the NY style is opened by hand and then launched onto the deck with a peel.  The Sicilian style is put into a deep-dish pan that is oiled well, then left to proof for an hour, dressed and put into the deck oven on a screen. I use a high-gluten flour and use the same formula for both of my pizzas.  I believe this could also work  with a regular Lehmann dough.

My deck oven is propane gas and I used a deck temperature between 525-550 degrees F.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 01:22:36 PM »
yulong,

Can you tell me where in China you are?

I actually tried the dough formulation (NAPICS) you mentioned but using my standard home electric oven with a basic pizza stone. You can read about my results at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4800.msg40779.html#msg40779. Also, a few other members subsequently tried the recipe and reported on their results at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9698.msg84195.html#msg84195. Maybe those threads will give you an idea as to the performance of the recipe for your application. You will also note that one of the members, abilak, uses a pizza screen to make the pizzas using the NAPICS dough recipe. In your case, I think you would want to bake directly on your oven's stone surface.

I agree with scott123 about the drawbacks of using pans in your oven. There are some special "cloud" or "hearth bake" disks that are sold in the U.S. (see http://www.lloydpans.com/C-1000033/Hearth+Bake+Disks) to bake NY style pizzas in conveyor ovens, but I don't know if they are suitable for your particular oven and application. Cutter pans (http://www.lloydpans.com/C-1000021/Cutter+Pans) might work, and appear to resist warping at normal oven temperatures, but they are not flat. Pizza screens (http://www.lloydpans.com/C-1000034/Screens) might work, and there are many pizza operators in the U.S. who use them in their deck ovens, but you give up some crispiness in the finished crust by using them. As somewhat a workaround for this problem, some pizza operators start their pizzas on the pizza screens and then slip them off of the screens and onto the deck toward the end of the bake to get a crispier bottom crust. Other operators start the pizzas on the deck to get the desired degree of crispiness and then slip pizza screens under them toward the end of the bake so that the pizzas don't overbake on the bottom.

I don't see any problem substituting 20% semolina flour for a part of the flour called for in the recipe. Semolina flour has a protein content that is quite close to the protein content of the Superlative flour. However, you may need to tweak the hydration to be sure that the dough comes together properly. Of course, in your case, you will have to find a substitute for the Superlative flour.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 02:20:53 PM »
Yulong, whoops, sorry, wrong Pizza Street pizzeria. I thought it was a midwest chain.

When people are looking for the right pizza flour overseas, I normally recommend talking to bakeries. I'm guessing if you can't find a good pizza, you probably can't find a good baguette either, right?

Do you own an infrared thermometer? If you don't, buy one. You're going to need readings for the stone temp and the ceiling temp- something that a single temperature gauge won't give you.

This is the third time I've heard of an oven that goes to 500 C (932 F.), but I've never actually seen a gauge or an IR thermometer that measured it.  I'm not saying that the specs are fraudulent, but you might want to be prepared for lower temps than that. If the oven does actually hit that temp... there's a chance you might be able to make Neapolitan pizza in it.  Maybe.  932 F is a little low for the dome of a WFO, but 200 mm  is a much smaller vertical gap.

For NY style with gray/cement like stones (most likely along the lines of fibrament), I'd say 343 C (650 f) for the hearth.  For the ceiling... at 200 mm, I'm leaning towards 426 C (800 F).  That's just a rough estimate, though.  Top heat is completely distance dependent.

$380 is unbelievable.  I hope they're not being stingy with the stones- thin stones can heat unevenly. I hope, also that they've given you a top element (broiler) that's distributed evenly so you get even heat from above as well.

Offline jever4321

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »
Yeah, that price sounds too good to be true. More often than not that's the case. I hope you're not disappointed.
-Jay

Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 09:40:12 PM »
Thanks for the excellent advise guys- I'm now living in a city called WUXI in central/east China Jiangsu Province near to Shanghai. I spend a bit of time travelling to Wuhan for work via Shanghai which is where I do most of my shopping.

 I'll get a digital infrared thermometer and test the temp carefully. If there are hot spots and the temp of the cooking surface is not quite even wouldn't it be better to turn the bottom temp up very high and use pans? I assume they'd distribute the heat more evenly. I originally thought this recipe that Tom had given was using pans which is why I thought I'd give it a go.

I've never put a dough directly onto the stone before or worked it on and off the peel- looks like it might take a knack I'll work on getting but in the meantime if hosting parties and I want to bang out 8 or 10 pizzas I thought it would be easier to manage and less time consuming if they were done in pans.



Offline RoadPizza

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 09:48:28 PM »
Until you get practice with a peel, if you're planning on cooking 8 to 10 pies at a time, you may as well invest in pizza screens first.

Offline scott123

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 09:56:46 PM »
If there are hot spots and the temp of the cooking surface is not quite even wouldn't it be better to turn the bottom temp up very high and use pans? I assume they'd distribute the heat more evenly. I originally thought this recipe that Tom had given was using pans which is why I thought I'd give it a go.

I've never put a dough directly onto the stone before or worked it on and off the peel- looks like it might take a knack I'll work on getting but in the meantime if hosting parties and I want to bang out 8 or 10 pizzas I thought it would be easier to manage and less time consuming if they were done in pans.

The heat distribution really depends on the pan.  Most thin aluminum pans can't offset an unevenly heated stone.  Let's not jump the gun, though- there's a chance you purchased a quality product.

Banging out 8 or 10 pizzas with a peel isn't any more work than pans- not only will the end result be superior (for NY style), but, at the end of night, you'll have less pans to wash.

Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 11:36:58 PM »
Thanks for your help guys.

Looks like I'll be going out to buy a new infrared thermometer, some pizza screens and a decent peel and will get experimenting.

I'm thinking of substituting 20% semolina in the Hong Kong Bread Flour- may also try adding vitamin C in one batch to see if it makes a difference. Being the case I'll increase hydration to about 62%. I'm also going to try with fresh yeast/bakers brick which I've used in the past with great results and try a 24hr cold fermentation. If I substitue fresh yeast for IDY how do I calculate the amount required? Is it multiplied by 3 or 2.5?

When I've done pizza in the past in my convection oven I've usually made a dough and bulk cold fermented overnight then balled up into 4 pieces and let sit 1.5-2hrs before rolling out. I notice a lot of you ball up straight from the mixer and then cold ferment individually. Can anyone tell me if this difference affects the dough or is it for convenience? What differences could I expecgt to see?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 10:19:03 AM »
yulong,

The usual multiplier to go from IDY to fresh yeast is about 3, by weight. If you want to increase the hydration to 62%, or any other value for that matter, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to do the conversions. In fact, I took a shot at doing that and got the dough formulation as set forth below. That formulation is for one dough ball for a single 14" pizza. You can use the expanded dough calculating tool to make as many dough balls as you like. In the dough formulation, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. I also used olive oil instead of vegetable oil for better flavor (but you can substitute other oils for olive oil if you don't have olive oil). I used a desk calculator to apportion the Flour Blend into its two components.

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (62%):
CY (1.125%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Total (167.875%):
215.41 g  |  7.6 oz | 0.47 lbs
133.55 g  |  4.71 oz | 0.29 lbs
2.42 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs |
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
361.62 g | 12.76 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = 0.0828616
*Flour Blend comprises 172.33 grams/6.08 ounces (80%) Hong Kong bread flour and 43.08 grams/1.52 ounces (20%) semolina flour
Note: Dough is for a single dough ball for one 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.081637 (target dough weight = 356.28 grams/12.57 ounces); bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Just about all professional pizza operators who make cold fermented doughs do the division of the bulk dough into pieces before putting them into the cooler. There are some differences in the biochemistry of dough fermented in bulk rather than in pieces but the main reason for doing the division up front is for convenience, mainly to minimize handling of the individual pieces and thereby avoid the need to try to form odd shaped pieces into nice round dough balls. It is much easier to do this when the dough is warm right out of the mixer rather than cold. Once that is done, there is no need to handle the dough balls anymore until they are to be used to make pizzas.

Peter




Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 09:09:56 PM »
yulong,

The usual multiplier to go from IDY to fresh yeast is about 3, by weight. If you want to increase the hydration to 62%, or any other value for that matter, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to do the conversions. In fact, I took a shot at doing that and got the dough formulation as set forth below. That formulation is for one dough ball for a single 14" pizza. You can use the expanded dough calculating tool to make as many dough balls as you like. In the dough formulation, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. I also used olive oil instead of vegetable oil for better flavor (but you can substitute other oils for olive oil if you don't have olive oil). I used a desk calculator to apportion the Flour Blend into its two components.

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (62%):
CY (1.125%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Total (167.875%):
215.41 g  |  7.6 oz | 0.47 lbs
133.55 g  |  4.71 oz | 0.29 lbs
2.42 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs |
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
6.46 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
361.62 g | 12.76 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = 0.0828616
*Flour Blend comprises 172.33 grams/6.08 ounces (80%) Hong Kong bread flour and 43.08 grams/1.52 ounces (20%) semolina flour
Note: Dough is for a single dough ball for one 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.081637 (target dough weight = 356.28 grams/12.57 ounces); bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Just about all professional pizza operators who make cold fermented doughs do the division of the bulk dough into pieces before putting them into the cooler. There are some differences in the biochemistry of dough fermented in bulk rather than in pieces but the main reason for doing the division up front is for convenience, mainly to minimize handling of the individual pieces and thereby avoid the need to try to form odd shaped pieces into nice round dough balls. It is much easier to do this when the dough is warm right out of the mixer rather than cold. Once that is done, there is no need to handle the dough balls anymore until they are to be used to make pizzas.

Peter


Thanks Peter- that is so generous of you. I'm going to give it a go this weekend- mix up about 6 bases and cook them at a couple different temps. Any predictions how it will go with the semolina?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 09:42:39 PM »
Any predictions how it will go with the semolina?


yulong,

I personally like semolina flour as part of a pizza dough. The last time I used it was to make a clone of a style of pizza made by Papa Gino's, which is a regional pizza chain in the Northeast part of the U.S. I thought from my research that Papa Gino's was possibly using semolina flour as part of its flour blend. It later turned out that they were not using semolina flour. But I liked the pizza anyway. You can see my results at Replies 79 and 80 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404. You might note my comments on the effect of using semolina flour in the blend in terms of hydration. The Papa Gino's pizza is not considered a NY style but it has some similarities to that style.

I might add that there are some pizza operators who make a NY style with some semolina flour but most do not. So long as you get the hydration right, I think you should be fine. You might also note from the abovereferenced posts that I used a combination of pizza screen and stone, which is one of the possibiltites I mentioned to you earlier in this thread.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2010, 10:12:54 PM »
I'm now living in a city called WUXI in central/east China Jiangsu Province near to Shanghai. I spend a bit of time travelling to Wuhan for work via Shanghai which is where I do most of my shopping.

yulong,

I asked you where you are living in China because another member, who was born in the U.S. and speaks Chinese, pulled up stakes and moved to China in order to start a pizza business. I helped him with a NY style dough formulation--the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. He now has three stores, two in Shenzhen and one in Hong Kong, and he has been getting very good reviews by expats and reviewers alike. I thought that if you were near him, he would be able to tell you some good sources for the ingredients for your pizzas. However, from a map of China I see that you are a long way from Shenzhen.

Peter

Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2010, 11:10:25 PM »
Hi Peter,

Well if my dough works out as well as his did I might have to look at opening my own place... pity I don't have the time these days.

Offline yulong

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Re: Need Help with NY Style Pizza with a Commercial Oven
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 09:35:38 PM »
Hi Guys,

I had a good look at the oven last night and from hearth to ceiling it is 1500mm (I overestimated earlier) and the stone is 200mm thick.

The temperature dials for top and bottom go up to 500 degrees centigrade and the thermometre reads up to 600.

I plugged her in and turned her on last night and using my neighbours infrared thermometre the stone and ceiling read around 280 each when I'd turned it up to 300 on the dial for about 30 minutes. It cranked up to much higher than that and oven thermometre up to 500 no worries but the infrared only reads 300max. I'll have to get a higher one of my own but seems legit.

The stone did seem to measure different temps in different spot with up to 30 degrees centigrade difference - I'm hoping this is more that I'd only had it on 30-40 mins when measured and if on for an hour+ it may settle down.

The elements across the top looked even and consistant.

I'm gonna make a couple batches of dough tonight and then see how we go on the weekend.

Thanks for your help.


 

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