Author Topic: Can a KA sourdough starter be used in combination with IDY for a great tasting p  (Read 1702 times)

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Online norma427

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On that point, I made sure my starter was fully active.

Mitch,

Thanks for telling us you made sure your starter was fully active.  The KA sourdough starter becomes active pretty fast but then starts to fall faster than some of the other starters I have tried.  The KA sourdough starter is very pleasant in smell.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Norma,

When a preferment peaks and starts to fall, that doesn't mean that you will not get the best results. Once the preferment reaches the break point, you still have a reasonable period of time to use it.

Peter

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Norma,

When a preferment peaks and starts to fall, that doesn't mean that you will not get the best results. Once the preferment reaches the break point, you still have a reasonable period of time to use it.

Peter

Peter,

I think I know that, but what does Craig and Mitch mean that is should be highly active?  Each type of starter acts a little differently.  The KA sourdough starter is what I call highly active in about 2 1/2 hrs.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Peter,

I think I know that, but what does Craig and Mitch mean that is should be highly active?  Each type of starter acts a little differently.  The KA sourdough starter is what I call highly active in about 2 1/2 hrs.

Norma

If I said it needs to be highly active, that's not what I meant. I'm simply commenting that the activity level will affect the fermentation rate. What matters is that you do things the same way every time so that the activity level is as close to the same as possible and your results are then somewhat predictable.
Pizza is not bread.

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What matters is that you do things the same way every time so that the activity level is as close to the same as possible and your results are then somewhat predictable.

This is exactly what most professional bakers do. But they make their preferments pretty much every day (because they sell bread pretty much every day), not for use just one day a week. And, when designing new bakeries, a special temperature-controlled room is often set aside just to make and store the preferments and keep them at the desired temperatures pending use. Obviously, the reason for all of this is to achieve uniformity and consistency of results.

Norma's situation at market where temperatures are all over the place over the course of the year is far more challenging than what professional bakers have to deal with. And maintaining a starter for use just one day a week is an added burden.

Peter

Online norma427

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If I said it needs to be highly active, that's not what I meant. I'm simply commenting that the activity level will affect the fermentation rate. What matters is that you do things the same way every time so that the activity level is as close to the same as possible and your results are then somewhat predictable.

Craig,

I understand now.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Norma's situation at market where temperatures are all over the place over the course of the year is far more challenging than what professional bakers have to deal with. And maintaining a starter for use just one day a week is an added burden.

Peter

Peter,

I am not a professional baker and know I will probably have problems using a natural starter.  I think I am just going to keep the natural starter at home and then take it too market when I need it.  I think that way would solve a lot of problems.  That all depends on how the tests go first.   

Norma
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Offline mitchjg

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Hi Norma:

I thought you may interested in this web page I found when surfing around.  It is on the "Pizza Quest" website from Peter Reinhart in the Forno Bravo forum.  Notwithstanding that the person who developed the recipe did not claim it to be "NY Style", it was interesting to find a pizza recipe that combines yeast (it was ADY) and sourdough starter.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/461-neo-neapolitan-sourdough-pizza-dough.html

It was created by Teresa Galloway, who runs northwestsourdough.com

The instructions were to briefly mix and then perform a series of stretch and folds over a period of 4 hours.  Then, after dividing (4 or 5 balls) refrigerate for a period from 2 hours to overnight.  Warm up for 2 hours and bake.

The ADY % was 0.4% (about 0.28% if IDY) and the Starter was 33.2%, (very roughly) double what was discussed before but with a shorter fermentation period.

The feedback in the forum seemed very positive from my quick glance.  I have no clue if this is any good but, as mentioned, I thought you may have interest.  Apparently, the dough with a hydration of 74.9% was modeled after Peter Reinhart's Neo Neapolitan.

- Mitch

PS I made a quick spreadsheet to turn the recipe into baker's percents.

Online norma427

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Hi Norma:

I thought you may interested in this web page I found when surfing around.  It is on the "Pizza Quest" website from Peter Reinhart in the Forno Bravo forum.  Notwithstanding that the person who developed the recipe did not claim it to be "NY Style", it was interesting to find a pizza recipe that combines yeast (it was ADY) and sourdough starter.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/461-neo-neapolitan-sourdough-pizza-dough.html

It was created by Teresa Galloway, who runs northwestsourdough.com

The instructions were to briefly mix and then perform a series of stretch and folds over a period of 4 hours.  Then, after dividing (4 or 5 balls) refrigerate for a period from 2 hours to overnight.  Warm up for 2 hours and bake.

The ADY % was 0.4% (about 0.28% if IDY) and the Starter was 33.2%, (very roughly) double what was discussed before but with a shorter fermentation period.

The feedback in the forum seemed very positive from my quick glance.  I have no clue if this is any good but, as mentioned, I thought you may have interest.  Apparently, the dough with a hydration of 74.9% was modeled after Peter Reinhart's Neo Neapolitan.

- Mitch

PS I made a quick spreadsheet to turn the recipe into baker's percents.


Mitch,

Thanks so much for finding the sourdough with IDY dough.  I thought that was very interesting too.  That formulation and methods sound like they would work well.

I might try that formulation and method at some point in time to see what kind of results there are.

I still didn't find time to work out a formulation for tomorrow for market.  I don't know if I will find time to do that because I am going to visit my mother this evening and also to see a cousin that is ill.

Thanks also for figuring out the baker's percentages too. 

Norma
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Online norma427

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I mixed a KA sourdough starter dough with IDY this morning for market tomorrow.  The dough is a NY style dough that is going to be made into a boardwalk style pizza tomorrow.  I used the same TF and ingredients as I normally use for my pizzas at market. The mixing was finished about 10:30 AM this morning.  The mixing was done in my Kitchen Aid Professional HD.  The flat beater was used first and then was changed to the spiral hook.  I used cold water for the mix.  The formulation is in the photos. The KA sourdough starter was fed last evening before I went to bed and was used today.
 
If anyone is interested this is how my Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixes the dough it is in the videos.  I did not take a video of mixing with the flat beater first, or didn't take videos of the whole mixing process.  The first video just shows how the dough mixes before the oil is added.  The second video shows how the dough mixes after the oil is added.  It can be seen there is one small piece of dough that gets mixed into the other big part of the dough after a little while in the second video.
 
The Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixes somewhat like the Hobart I have at market.  The KA starter+IDY NY style dough felt nice after mixing.

Edit:  If anyone wonders about the formulation, and the amount of IDY that was used, the IDY was 0.12% and 0.36 grams was used in the formulation.  I used 20% of the KA sourdough culture. 
 
<a href="http://youtu.be/ToJS5wmFle8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/ToJS5wmFle8</a>

 
<a href="http://youtu.be/hjvwXK-vLGg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/hjvwXK-vLGg</a>

 
Norma
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 08:58:46 PM by norma427 »
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Online norma427

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The dough ball is at market now cold fermenting.

Norma

Edit:  I forgot to add the mixing was done on speed 1.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 06:23:12 PM by norma427 »
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Online norma427

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These are the photos from the experiment with the KA sourdough starter and IDY.  Some of the photos aren't the best.

The KA starter/IDY dough ball was taken out of the prep fridge at about 1:06 PM to warm up.  The KA starter/IDY was warmed up by about 2:16 PM because it was in the lower 90's inside my stand. 

The dough ball opened up very easily with no tears in the skin.  Even though I opened the KA/IDY the way I normally do the final pizza ended up with a smaller rim after the bake.  I sure don't know why that happened.

The pizza tasted good and did taste like a sourdough pizza, but the sourdough taste really was not sour at all.  The bottom crust and rim crust were crisper than my normal market pizzas.  I sure don't understand why something else happened that I was not expecting.  My regular sauce and cheese did not taste anything like my regular normal boardwalk style pizzas do.  I used the same amounts of cheese and sauce.  My taste testers noticed the same thing.  All my taste testers liked the KA starter/IDY pizza but not as much as my boardwalk style pizzas. 

I don't know what to try next.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Norma
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Online norma427

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One of my taste testers did like the crisper rim crust and crisper bottom crust but the rest of us like a less crisper rim crust and bottom crust.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Do you want sour? There are ways to make that happen.
Pizza is not bread.

Online norma427

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Do you want sour? There are ways to make that happen.

Craig,

No, I do not want a sour taste.  The taste of the crust was almost like when using the Ischia starter culture when it is fed right.  Maybe someone else might want a sour taste.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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I misunderstood. The way I read your post, I thought you were disappointed or surprised that it wasn't sour.
Pizza is not bread.

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Norma,
I was really surprised that your cheese and sauce didn't taste anything like normal. I've never experienced that when using IDY+KA starter. Have you had this difference in taste when using an Ischia starter?
Tom

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I misunderstood. The way I read your post, I thought you were disappointed or surprised that it wasn't sour.

Craig,

To explain a little more,  I wanted to get a similar taste like when using the Ischia starter culture to make a NP pie instead of using a commercial yeast, but in a NY style pie.

Norma

 
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