Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 160815 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2550 on: June 23, 2016, 10:20:42 PM »
Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2551 on: June 23, 2016, 10:21:43 PM »
Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2552 on: June 24, 2016, 08:13:00 AM »
Are the doughs balled before freezing..or after being thawed?  That's amazing oven spring!

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2553 on: June 24, 2016, 08:28:30 AM »
I'm pleased to see your 14" pizza.  I couldn't wolf the whole thing if it were much larger :D

What method did you use to thaw the frozen dough?  I usually put the container in tap water for one hour or so, sometimes longer.  If I'm in a hurry, I use the sink and add a few inches of warm water.  But I've also had success in using a large sauce pan and a few inches of room-temp water which slows warm-up as the frozen dough cools the water to 60F or so for a few hours (more if you 'insulate' the pan by placing on a towel, less if put on a stone counter top).  Those see-through tubs make it easy, IMO, to tell when the dough is ready to open.

I'm not suggesting the above is the best way.  I'm sure there are others.  Just looking to read what you came up with.

Thanks

Dave

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2554 on: June 24, 2016, 09:28:30 AM »
Are the doughs balled before freezing..or after being thawed?  That's amazing oven spring!

Bill,

The dough was scaled, balled and oiled right after the mix. The mix was on Monday. Then they went right into the chest freezer until they were partly frozen. Then they were bagged.  I am not sure but think the LDM had something to do with the oven spring.  I tried some frozen dough balls out at market on Tuesday and they didn't have that much oven spring.  They also didn't have LDM added.  For some reason the dough make with the LDM was softer when the dough ball was defrosted.  I took the dough ball out of the freezer yesterday afternoon, oiled a container and also the dough ball.  Sat out at various temperatures for about 5 hrs. then was put back into the home fridge until I took it out to warm up early last evening.  While it warmed up it fermented more.

These are a few photos of the process.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2555 on: June 24, 2016, 09:46:35 AM »
I'm pleased to see your 14" pizza.  I couldn't wolf the whole thing if it were much larger :D

What method did you use to thaw the frozen dough?  I usually put the container in tap water for one hour or so, sometimes longer.  If I'm in a hurry, I use the sink and add a few inches of warm water.  But I've also had success in using a large sauce pan and a few inches of room-temp water which slows warm-up as the frozen dough cools the water to 60F or so for a few hours (more if you 'insulate' the pan by placing on a towel, less if put on a stone counter top).  Those see-through tubs make it easy, IMO, to tell when the dough is ready to open.

I'm not suggesting the above is the best way.  I'm sure there are others.  Just looking to read what you came up with.

Thanks

Dave

Dave,

I think a 14 pizza might be good for a home pizza maker to start with.

I am still experimenting to find out what is the best way to thaw the frozen doughs so customers might have better results.  I would think customers might want to at least use them in a one day time frame.  As you can see I did tell Bill what I tried.  I showed customers on Tuesday dough balls that didn't have LDM in them how much I thought they needed fermented until they could be baked into a pizza.  I did defrost 2 frozen dough balls.  One was in a one day timeframe and the other was in a two day timeframe.  A few more photos from other experiments that didn't have LDM added.

Thanks for telling us your methods for warming-up frozen doughs.  Your methods are very inventive.  :) I agree if there is a see through container it is a lot easier to see how the dough ferments.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2556 on: June 24, 2016, 10:45:03 AM »
Thanks for the info, Norma..Very interesting about the LDM 


.Good that you're selling the dough balls. Of course, now you'll have to sell house calls to come make pizza at their homes  :-D   

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2557 on: June 24, 2016, 12:03:09 PM »
Thanks for the info, Norma..Very interesting about the LDM 


.Good that you're selling the dough balls. Of course, now you'll have to sell house calls to come make pizza at their homes  :-D

Bill,

Trying to make frozen dough balls that work well in a home setting or even in a pizza commercial setting is somewhat challenging.  Professional commercial frozen dough ball producers have blast freezers and so many other things to make decent frozen dough balls. 

I think any home pizza makers that want to try my frozen dough balls will have to experiment to see what works for them because they probably will have different ovens and maybe they won't even have a pizza stone.  I will try to help as much as I can.  The easy stretching part of the frozen dough balls I have experimented with so far might help a home pizza maker.  No house calls for me.  :-D  I did try to show some pizza makers this past Tuesday how to stretch a dough.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2558 on: June 25, 2016, 04:05:23 AM »
Some dough balls made yesterday waiting to see if they will be good frozen doughs.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2559 on: June 25, 2016, 10:15:17 AM »
Curious the weight of the dough balls? 

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2560 on: June 25, 2016, 11:34:12 AM »
Curious the weight of the dough balls?

Bill,

The dough balls weight 12.5 ounces.  I could have stretched the one that was used in the home oven more than 14".

Norma


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2561 on: June 25, 2016, 01:43:48 PM »
Thanks Norma..


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2562 on: Yesterday at 08:12:08 AM »
Norma,


I was wondering..after a failed frozen dough test bake this morning..when does your dough ferment? If it's right to freezer after mix, and then thawed and counter risen and baked..how much fermenting time is here?


 Does it taste like a same day dough, an overnight..or does the LDM change that?  I froze a ball that was pretty much fully fermented and ready to bake...except when I thawed it, it wasn't. So I left it out overnight..still not impressive. Baked this AM on steel, oven spring blah, appearance and handling sub-par. Not in a rush to do that again. IDY was .12%...the DB from same batch that was previously baked was very good..this was not ..it was GMFS HR 64 with 5% spelt.

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2563 on: Yesterday at 08:22:40 AM »
Norma,


I was wondering..after a failed frozen dough test bake this morning..when does your dough ferment? If it's right to freezer after mix, and then thawed and counter risen and baked..how much fermenting time is here?


 Does it taste like a same day dough, an overnight..or does the LDM change that?  I froze a ball that was pretty much fully fermented and ready to bake...except when I thawed it, it wasn't. So I left it out overnight..still not impressive. Baked this AM on steel, oven spring blah, appearance and handling sub-par. Not in a rush to do that again. IDY was .12%...the DB from same batch that was previously baked was very good..this was not ..it was GMFS HR 64 with 5% spelt.

Bill,

I have tried different amounts of times for defrosting and fermenting frozen dough balls.  Some of the ferments when defrosting were up to two days.  Some of the tests included letting the frozen dough balls sit out for about 5 hours at varying temperatures to get the fermentation started and also warning up at market for a long while at various room temperatures.  I changed formulations when trying different experiments.  I haven't experimented enough to really know what is best to do yet.  I haven't done enough tests with LDM either to know what will happen.  Your yeast amount for a frozen dough are way on the low side.  When Peter and I were playing around with frozen doughs on the Mellow Mushroom thread the yeast amounts were pretty high.  Right now I am experimenting with 0.50% IDY for frozen doughs.  When you freeze doughs some of the yeast dies.  I don't know what kind of freezer you own but both of mine are freezers need to be manually defrosted, so they don't go through a defrost at all while in the freezer.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2564 on: Yesterday at 08:25:12 AM »
The dough balls weren't frozen enough Friday, before I had to leave market to be put into plastic bags.  I then put aluminum foil over the dough balls.  I also wasn't sure how the dough balls would freeze since they were touching each other.  Luckily, yesterday the dough balls came apart with a couple of hits on the sheet pans.

Earlier on in the experiments to make frozen dough balls the tops had some tiny hairline cracks on the to surface. 

I guess I should have started a new thread about making frozen dough ball instead of posting about them on this thread.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2565 on: Yesterday at 09:17:15 AM »
Thanks Norma--it's a lot of work to figure that all out!


Mine was a total disaster because I think the dough was just all done by the time it got to the freezer. It wasn't planned as a frozen dough ball...it was just one that was left over so I gave it a shot. Probably should have just tossed it...which is what i wound up doing this morning after topping, saucing and baking it...Yuck. However, it was a good cheese melt. Near boardwalk style...a pizza you might find tossed under the boardwalk  :-D The dog liked it, anyway.

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2566 on: Yesterday at 09:38:30 AM »
Thanks Norma--it's a lot of work to figure that all out!


Mine was a total disaster because I think the dough was just all done by the time it got to the freezer. It wasn't planned as a frozen dough ball...it was just one that was left over so I gave it a shot. Probably should have just tossed it...which is what i wound up doing this morning after topping, saucing and baking it...Yuck. However, it was a good cheese melt. Near boardwalk style...a pizza you might find tossed under the boardwalk  :-D The dog liked it, anyway.

Bill,

Since Peter has been helping me understand how to mix frozen dough, the yeast amounts, final dough temperatures, and the best way to freeze dough balls I have learned a lot, but am not there yet. 

I don't think yours was a disaster if you learned something.  Some of mine weren't the best either.  Lol, I could have tossed many pizzas I made under the boardwalk.  I am glad to hear your dog like it and the pizza had a good cheese melt.  8)

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2567 on: Yesterday at 02:25:08 PM »
Thanks Norma--it's a lot of work to figure that all out!

Bill,

Norma and I have been working offline on the frozen dough project for close to a month, through emails and PMs. What got everything going was that Norma said that she liked the Lamonica dough balls that she purchased from Bova. So, it was natural to try to decipher the Lamonica dough balls. However, Norma was not anxious to use a high gluten flour such as used by Lamonica's (more on this below) but rather to use the Full Strength flour that she normally uses at market. So, one of the first suggestions I made to Norma was that she conduct a hydration bake test and a gluten mass test on a sample of the Lamonica dough that she had in her possession. In parallel, we both made separate approaches to Lamonica's from which we obtained some fairly detailed nutrition information and also Nutrition Facts and ingredients statements. From that information, I was able to establish that Norma's hydration bake test was on the money, so that helped determine a probable hydration value. Norma's gluten mass test suggested a lower flour protein value than used by Lamonica's so that left a few open questions. I should mention at this point that Lamonica's is fairly guarded about disclosing its nutrition information for its products but it will do so privately to existing customers or those who want to purchase their products, especially through fairly large orders.

Also by way of background, Lamonica's sells several frozen dough products. They include frozen doughs balls--with or without semolina--and fresh frozen pizza shells. They also sell a retail frozen dough ball, also with semolina. An example is the Lamonica's frozen dough balls sold by Sur La Table, but without a Nutrition Facts panel, at:

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-1392471/Lamonicas+Pizza+Dough

Subsequently, through the kind help of Mitch, we saw the ingredients statement and Nutrition Facts for a retail Lamonica's frozen dough sold on the West Coast. That dough also includes semolina.

The use of the semolina has always puzzled me because it is used in such small quantity that its presence in the dough will not be detectible--which is something that Mike (Essen1) noted when the tried a Lamonica's retail frozen dough ball. And, from what Norma told me, there was no surface semolina on the Bova dough balls in her possession, much like Mellow Mushroom ships its frozen doughs to its stores covered with a fair amount of cornmeal.

The above aside, Norma and I decided to focus on Lamonica dough balls that include only flour, water, salt, yeast and olive oil. These are the ingredients for the Lamonica frozen dough balls sold to Costco. I was quite familiar with that dough through the work I conducted in the thread at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9121.msg78926#msg78926

And in the above thread, one of the most important posts is Reply 24 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9121.msg83041#msg83041

So, working with the above information, I started to create frozen dough formulations for Norma to use but with the Full Strength flour. And in that vein, I was eventually able to come very close to the Lamonica's nutrition information. At the same time, Norma continued to pursue Lamonica's and also Bove's and another Lamonica's distributor and even Costco to try to get specific nutrition information for the basic Lamonica's dough such as used at Costco and, we believe, in the Bova Lamonica's frozen dough. I also continued my exchanges with Lamonica's. At one point I so puzzled the person I was dealing with at Lamonica's with my technical questions that he asked me for my telephone number so that someone more knowledgeable about the matter could call me to discuss. Later that evening, I received a call from Lamonica's. It was from John Lamonica, the president of the company. We had a very nice conversation. I told him of my concerns, including the fact that some of their Nutrition Facts, if publicly disclosed, would not be in compliance with the FDA rules and regulations. A lot of what I told him he seemed not to be aware of, but, to be fair, I wouldn't expect him as the president of the company to be privy to every detail of the production of their products. However, he did tell me the name of the miller of the flour they use, and he said that the protein content of the flour was "north of 13%".  At the end of the conversation, which ran for several minutes, he thanked me. He said that the thought that he was going to educate me but instead I educated him. And he thanked me again for that. I offered to work with his people if he wanted, but I did not hear back from them.

Some interesting things came out of the above exercise. For one, pretty much all of the people that Norma and I came in contact with, either through emails or telephone calls, did not know much about Nutrition Facts and what they mean and what the FDA requires. In some cases, the people couldn't even relate the nutrition information to their own products. The other thing is that there is a special science that applies to making and using frozen dough balls as opposed to fresh dough balls. And that science does not work particularly well in a home setting where dough balls are frozen in the freezer compartment of a standard static refrigerator where there is an automatic defrost cycle. Norma has a leg up on other members in the sense that her freezer does not have an automatic defrost cycle. It has to be defrosted manually. So, her dough balls will be better. To give the readers an example of how difficult it is to recreate a commercial frozen dough in a home setting, see the following PMQ Think Tank thread, including the posts by Tom Lehmann, at:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/different-dough-bake-relative-to-oven-type.14329/

You are correct, Bill, that frozen dough balls do not get much fermentation. The fermentation starts when the dough balls defrost, which might be as little as one day and as much as two or three days (especially if the defrosted dough is reballed after the second day and returned to the refrigerator for another day), and also when the defrosted dough is tempered at room temperature. What Norma is trying to do is to optimize the dough such that a one day defrost may be enough, given that most people are unlikely to want to go through a defrost period in excess of one day.

If I misstated anything, Norma should feel free to correct me or to add to what I posted.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2568 on: Yesterday at 05:18:25 PM »
Peter,

You did well in explaining everything!

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2569 on: Yesterday at 05:21:36 PM »
Started defrosting one of the frozen dough balls that were made Friday.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2570 on: Yesterday at 05:45:56 PM »
Started defrosting one of the frozen dough balls that were made Friday.

Norma

I think it will turn out great, Norma.  It looks like it is smiling at you. ;D

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2571 on: Yesterday at 05:57:10 PM »
I think it will turn out great, Norma.  It looks like it is smiling at you. ;D

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Lol Paul!  :-D  Hopefully I will be able to see how much it ferments with the "poppy seed trick".  Probably will let it sit out at room temperatures tomorrow.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2572 on: Yesterday at 07:33:59 PM »
This is great stuff! Thanks so much Peter and Norma..The FDA / Lamonica's part was really interesting to read!


Norma, we just came back from a day at the NJ shore  in Belmar..a day where no pizza was consumed (until tonight at home) I might add. But that doesn't mean I don't check pizza out whenever  I can. So as we walked down the boardwalk, I made a quick detour to look at some pizza being sold from a window in one of the shops. The slice was pale, flat and lifeless..a bit worse than the one I made and threw in the garbage this morning :-D

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2573 on: Yesterday at 10:31:07 PM »
This is great stuff! Thanks so much Peter and Norma..The FDA / Lamonica's part was really interesting to read!


Norma, we just came back from a day at the NJ shore  in Belmar..a day where no pizza was consumed (until tonight at home) I might add. But that doesn't mean I don't check pizza out whenever  I can. So as we walked down the boardwalk, I made a quick detour to look at some pizza being sold from a window in one of the shops. The slice was pale, flat and lifeless..a bit worse than the one I made and threw in the garbage this morning :-D

Bill,

Peter is the leader and I am the follower of trying to make frozen dough balls. 

Lol about you checking out pizzas on the boardwalk.  I know what you mean about slices looking pale and lifeless.  I have seen many of those on the boardwalk in Wildwood.  I am sure yours was better than theirs that you threw in the garbage this morning.  Do you think you will ever try frozen dough balls again?

Look what happened to one of my frozen dough balls last Tuesday.  :-D  There looked like there was plenty of fermentation in the bottom container.  It still made a fairly decent pizza but it didn't have much of any oven spring.  I am hoping for more oven spring this Tuesday since the LDM was added. 

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2574 on: Yesterday at 11:03:35 PM »
Thanks Norma...I've actually had decent results with my frozen dough before..it's pretty much always used here as a solution to a timing problem rather than a planned freezer dough. I'd have to look carefully to see if i have notes, but I'm pretty sure the main difference here was a timing one...that the dough was totally ready (and yeast spent) at the time I froze it. In the past, I'm sure I put in in freezer far earlier in the process//then finished my fermentation after thawing. Not sure I ever had the same OS I get with non-frozen dough.


 

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