Author Topic: All Trumps (Read 7265 times)

Trinity · « **on:** April 10, 2005, 08:33:23 AM »

Well I've read that you guys like to use All Trumps flour. So I thought I would take a picture of how it comes at where I work.

50#s

How many 7 inch pies do you think we could get out of that???

Trinity · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2005, 08:34:05 AM »

Another shot.

pftaylor · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2005, 08:38:28 AM »

Trinity,
That is the exact bag I saw at Patsy's in NYC a few weeks back. I actually saw just a portion of the bag and could read the Gold Medal logo. I really didn't know that it was All Trumps. Thanks for the pictures.

From a manufacturing quality standpoint how does All Trumps compare to other flours?

Trinity · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2005, 08:51:41 AM »

Well I tell ya, I don't use it my self, The other guy's there use it for bread making. And to beef up ap flour for certin things. But I use General Mills ap flour personaly and I would prefer to only use it. Some times they get a different ap flour in because they get a better price. And that can really screw me up for a day or two until I get used to it.

The cheaper flours generaly take longer mixing times to develop, and also less water in the recipe's. Less protein I guess.

pftaylor · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:07:34 AM »

Trin,
Where do you work? I'm not sure I understand the business you are in where you would require such large amounts of flour.

Trinity · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:14:28 AM »

I work at a full line bakery.

We make everything.

Bread, wedding cakes , pies, danish , rolls , cookies,,, And on and on.

pftaylor · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:17:13 AM »

Thanks for sharing. You may want to connect with bakerboy as I understand he just bought his childhood bakery. You two should have quite an interesting discussion...

Trinity · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:20:58 AM »

Hmm, Sounds interesting.

I've been a baker for over 20 years now,,,, @ just under 40.

Hard work though. Keeps me thin!

So I can eat all the pizza I want!!!

pftaylor · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:23:06 AM »

Out of curiosity,
Do you bake anything which requires an autolyse?
If so, I would be interested in your thoughts about that topic.

Trinity · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:32:15 AM »

Sounds like a dough conditioner. Yeah we use it in some of our bread recipes.

pftaylor · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2005, 09:39:50 AM »

Trin,
It may also be a conditioner. But the autolyse I'm referring to is a rest period(s) during the mixing process which allows two main things:
- Proper development of the gluten network
- Proper absorption of the water by the flour

Any thoughts?

Trinity · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2005, 10:09:44 AM »

Hmm,,,

Trin thinks......

Well not really.

But I tell ya, I can control those two issues with mixing time.

I use a 80 quart mixer most of the time. And the longer you mix a riseing dough, The more the gluten stiffens the dough. But if you mix too long then the friction from mixing can overheat the dough. And destroy it.

I guess my secret to making a good dough is water temp. And it varys widely through the seasons. And mixing time.

And I like to get a nice windowpane effect. For me that is a good sign my dough is done.

pftaylor · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2005, 10:24:42 AM »

Trin,
I have been striving to completely understand the impact of various mixing processes for some time now. What tips can you extend to us humble home pizza makers that might be of particular benefit? You mentioned temperature as being one and length of the mix as another.

Trinity · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2005, 11:04:57 AM »

I made pizza dough for a standing order for a store that used to make their pizzas a long time ago... 15 years plus. And I remember it was a simple recipe. Just hg flour, water, sugar, yeast and a tad of salt. About 20 pounds total weight, Mixed for about 12 minutes on 3rd gear on a 4 speed. Until the dough clears the bowl. Done just like that. Fast!

( BTW, I read some where else here in the fourms somthing about mixing instant dry yeast into the water before adding the rest of the stuff. To me this is a big NO NO! I always put it idy on top of the flour, to protect it from the varying water temps... If the water is even just a little to warm you can kill your yeast.)

And then I divided it right away(cold proof) into 6 rounded dough balls and sent it over after it cooled in the fridg. Lasted them a few days.

And I think (Just guessing). That alot of pizza places probably just make a large dough and divide it,round it, tray it, and cool it... I think the the dough balls would be good for pizza for up to 3-6 days. Without a problem.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2005, 11:11:25 AM »

The other day I decided to run a simple experiment to see if I could literally destroy a dough. Knowing that a food processor has a frictional temperature factor that is multiples of that of a stand mixer, especially one run at stir and settings of up to 3, I decided to use the food processor to do the experiment, using the metal blade. I added flour to the processor bowl along with some yeast and gradually added enough water to form a decent dough ball. I intentionally used the highest water temperature I could, about 133 degrees F, but not so high as to kill the yeast, which will die at around 138-140 degrees F.

To process the dough, I started with the pulse feature until the dough ball was formed, and then turned the machine on full blast--for a total of three minutes. The nice dough ball I had formed started to disintegrate after about a minute and then completely fell apart (I believe the technical term for this is "the letdown phase"), and finally became a complete mush without any form--just like putty spread across the bottom and sides of the bowl. I gathered and removed the dough from the processor and took its internal temperature. It was around 142 degrees F, and very warm to the touch. I left the dough in a bowl to see if would rise, but after an hour it just sat there without any signs of life whatsoever. It was dead. The 142 degree temperature was enough to kill the yeast, and the gluten structure of the dough had been completely destroyed through the excessive kneading.

I have concluded that control of water temperature is far more important when one is using a food processor for kneading dough because of the combination of small compartment size and high operating speed. Also, it is important to use the pulse feature as much as possible to restrain heat buildup in the dough. If the full speed is to be used, it should not exceed 20-30 seconds total (depending on the amount of dough), and even less if possible.

Peter

Trinity · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2005, 11:22:04 AM »

Yes! Exactly!

In the summer to get my dough mixed just right,,, I need 8 quarts of ice added to the water. In the winter 'very' warm water. Point being, You want your dough to come off the mixer at 'your' desired temp. acording to "shop conditions".

Trinity · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2005, 12:38:42 PM »

I looked up the url on the bag.

http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp#53521w

This is the ap I use.

varasano · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2005, 06:32:42 PM »

When I saw a bag of flour at Patsy's years ago, it was no the same as this one. It had the words Hi Gluten printed up the thin side of the bag. The bag was white and not brown.

Trinity, thanks for the info. Just to clarify, the autolyse that pftaylor and I are working with involves mixing the flour, water and yeast for just a minute, then letting it sit for 20 minutes before kneading. Then at the end the dough sits for another 15 minutes before cutting into balls.

I'd imagine that the end resting time is bound to occur even if you don't intend it because you make such large quantities compared to us home bakers that it takes a while just to divide so much dough into measured balls.

Do you add the flour all at once or gradually? One problem that we have with the home machines is that if you add all the flour up front, the dough just sticks to the hook and spins uselessly. By adding the flour gradually the dough gets some work at a wetter stage, even if the end hyrdation is lower. I doubt you have this problem with commercial mixers, but I thought I'd ask.

Pete-zza, I had some success with a food processor using the plastic blade. This made much less heat. I had some success, but now I love the DLX mixer and that's my only tool. I get amazing windowpaning, as I posted recently. The DLX, by the way, produces almost no heat. Very, very little. I'tl take readings next time, but I think I start at room temp (73) and end at like 78. So I don't even have to think about it. On several bread making blogs, the DLX is the only recommended machine. I personally will never go back to the Kitchen Aid or food processor.

Jeff

Pete-zza · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2005, 07:19:51 PM »

Jeff,

You are correct about using the plastic blade rather than the metal blade. I use the plastic blade when I am making my doughs. I used the metal blade yesterday because I knew it would produce more heat and would lead to faster destruction of the dough. But I am certain I could permanently damage a dough with the plastic blade also. It would just take a bit longer.

As for the friction factor for your machine, you might test it by using say, 5 degrees F, and plug that number in the expression for the water temperature:

WT = (3 x 80) - (Room temperature + Flour temperature + 5)

Quite often the room temperature and the flour temperature are the same. When the dough is finished, take its internal temperature. If is is off, one way or the other, from 80 degrees, then you adjust the friction factor in the direction that would have given you 80 degrees. Then, the next time, you can use the corrected number. I have found that my KitchenAid machine for the amount of dough that I make and the speeds and knead times I use has a friction factor of about 5-10 degrees. Of course, if you make a different batch size or use faster speeds or use longer knead times, then the friction factor will change. Being off a few degrees one way or the other will not pose any problem. For my food processor, I use around 35 degrees as the friction factor. It can be even higher for a bread machine with a long knead cycle.

Peter

MTPIZZA · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2005, 08:12:19 AM »

Picking flower is like an artist picking his colors for a particular painting...everyone seems to have their favorite...there are tons of different high gluten flours to be used.... Anyone ever hear of Hummer High gluten flour...this flour was used by a ma and pa pizza parlor close to me that turned out fantastic pies... so how does one pick??