Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer

[scott r]

this dough was made with bread flour at 59% hydration, and contained 1% oil, 2.5% salt, and .1% IDY.   I threw all the ingredients into the bosch, turned it on for about 20-30 seconds until all the flour seemed hydrated, waited 20, mixed for 8 min on the universal plus slowest setting, waited 20, then shot the video.   

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_H6xA0skew" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_H6xA0skew</a>

The numbers looked like this:

2250 grams of flour
1330 grams of water
3/4 tsp of IDY
58g salt
23 grams of oil

This wasn't really a fancy or special recipe at all (its always fun to play with poolishes, wild yeast, old dough, blended flours etc.), it was just a super basic direct dough intended to go together easy and let you guys see what a good bosch dough can look like.   As you can see, theres really no magic in the recipe, although I did design it in hopes that it would work nicely at both higher and lower temps (because I have some fresh mozzarella, and some dry mozzarella in the fridge right now).   

Here is a pic of a well done New York/New Haven coal oven style pizza I made with this dough.  The pizza has a combination of fresh and aged mozzarella. Sauce was spooned on top of the cheese and the pizza was finished with imported italian romano,  which gives a really nice flavor on these mid temperature (700 degree) pies.   

[Essen1]

Thanks for posting this, Scott. Dough looks great!

The part where you stretched the dough with your fingers reminded me a little bit of the movie "The Frighteners" except there were no faces present.

Take a look. You can see it at minute 1:10...

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3404923673/


Wish I had a Bosch, dammit. Well, Christmas is coming... 

[Jackie Tran]

Holy crap! Is that what I have in store for me?  Watching the video, I guess caputo 00, moderately hydrated, 20m knead. I was completely off! 

Thanks for doing the video. The dough looks amazing.

[ponzu]

Sensei!

That is quite possibly the most beautiful dough I have ever seen.  It looks like a Nasa derived polymer with gravity defying properties and kevlar like strength.

My results must be affected by the starter as you have previously suggested.  My dough while smooth and yielding looks nothing like that.

Would you mind posting your recipe for that (magical) dough?  I've just gotta try it.  Ischia be damned for a while.

Have you ever achieved those results with a starter?  If so your hydration and starter/salt percentages would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for the video.  it is the coolest.

AZ

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, when you knead to sub-window pane, how long are you (cold) fermenting the dough for?

Also do you find using an autolyse period helpful or necessary when using a mixer?

[ponzu]

this dough was made with bread flour at 59% hydration, and contained 1% oil.   I threw all the ingredients into the bosch, turned it on for about 20 seconds until all the flour seemed hydrated, waited 20, mixed for 8 min, waited 20, then shot the video.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_H6xA0skew

Scott,  thanks for making this thread.

When I saw that video my first thought was , "Damn, Chau is going to be psyched on his new purchase!"

What kind of yeast, what percentage, and how much salt?

Also have you achieved a similar dough using a starter?

Finally I have never experimented with oil in my dough.  Is this crucial in your experience to achieve such a dough.

I would also love to see a photo (or video ) of your dough cooked at high heat.

That dough is Awesome!


AZ

[BrickStoneOven]

Great video Scott. Was that with a starter or was it CY?

[Ronzo]

holy sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

pun intended.

[scott r]

Everybody, thanks for all the kind words, really its just all in the bosch!    I amended my first post at the top of this page to include all the details of the recipe.   

[Jackie Tran]

Scott r would you mind linking to that thread here so folks have an easier time finding it?

[scott r]

Scott, when you knead to sub-window pane, how long are you (cold) fermenting the dough for?

Also do you find using an autolyse period helpful or necessary when using a mixer?

WIth .1% yeast this dough is a slow riser, so it can sit in the fridge without any problems for well over a week.   Depending on how long it has been in the fridge I would pull it out before use for as much as 8 hours (if it was only in the fridge over night), or as little as an hour (if it was in the fridge for over a week).   What I tend to do sometimes when using this yeast percentage is give the dough a head start at room temp for a few hours, then the warm up time can be less on the other end (but the dough won't last as long).   Pizza is fun, as there are so many ways to do this.   I also often do .5% yeast and super long room temp fermentations, or even up to .3% IDY if I want to do a fridge rise and have the dough ready in a day or two.    Its all usually about my scheduling (what time of day I am making dough etc.) and if I am going to travel with the dough or not that dictates room temp, long fridge rise, fast fridge rise, etc. as a great dough can be made with any method or a mix of methods as long as you pay attention to the signs your dough is giving you.  

With the Bosch mixer I do find that it helps to let the flour and water sit together for 20 min or so before the full mixing starts.   Its not really an autolyse per se (the yeast salt, etc. is all in there from the beginning), but it does help the mixer to combine things easier and better.   With some mixers that move nice and slow like a fork mixer the autolyse is not really as important, so its more for how the mixer operates that I do this.

[wizziebaldwin]

Thank you very much for that.

I learned more in  a few moments watching that video than I have in the last 6 months.

At least now I know exactly what a fantastic dough should look like.

I have a few questions...

Does this work for most dough formulations?

Can this be achieved using a planetary mixer?

Is it remotely possible for this consistency to be achieved by kneading the dough by hand?

[scott r]

Scott,  thanks for making this thread.

Also have you achieved a similar dough using a starter?

Finally I have never experimented with oil in my dough.  Is this crucial in your experience to achieve such a dough.

I would also love to see a photo (or video ) of your dough cooked at high heat.

That dough is Awesome!


AZ

Yes, if I had used a starter the dough would have looked exactly like this.  

Oil is not crucial at all, and I usually don't need oil unless I am doing a lower temp bake.   Even so 1% is not a lot so it doesn't screw things up too much even at higher temps, but it does help to keep your end product a little softer even in a wimpy oven.  It also helps out in the flavor department.

[dellavecchia]

Scott - Thank you for the posting. Do you have the stainless bowl, and do you think it is necessary?

BTW, I used to see LTC all over Boston when I was in undergrad (early nineties) - fantastic band. Small world.

John

[carbon]

Thanks for that video!  After watching that I realized that my hand kneaded dough totally sucks.  Better start thinking (again!) about getting a mixer.....

[scott r]

Thank you very much for that.

I learned more in  a few moments watching that video than I have in the last 6 months.

At least now I know exactly what a fantastic dough should look like.

I have a few questions...

Does this work for most dough formulations?

Can this be achieved using a planetary mixer?

Is it remotely possible for this consistency to be achieved by kneading the dough by hand?

If you mean does the bosch mixer work nicely with most dough formulations, then answer is yes.   Actually it is my absolute favorite home mixer after owning a kitchen aid, an electrolux dlx, and even a santos fork mixer.   Like any mixer you are going to need to tweak mixing times based on how wet your dough is, your batch size, and what flour you are using, so 8 minutes is not going to be the magic bullet for every type of dough, but its a good place to start.  The method I outlined will work for any situation, though (30ish seconds to combine all ingredients followed by a 20 min rest, followed by the full mix).  Of course its always fun to pay with gradually adding flour, a riposo at the end etc, but I don't find these things are necessary for every situation.   The best thing about the bosch (and I did not find this was the case with some other mixers), is that once you have decided on your hydration level, flour type, and batch size, it makes a very consistent dough from batch to batch if you just pay attention to the clock .   You really don't need to keep stopping the mixer to feel and look at the dough like you do with other mixers that even with the same recipe can take a few minutes longer or shorter depending on the day.  Gradually adding flour works nicely for many mixers, but you have to know what to look for, and I like to keep things as simple as possible if I can. 

Up until I found the bosch (thanks agan Marc, you are the man!), The best doughs I was able to achieve at home were with hand kneading, or starting the dough in a mixer and doing the majority of the mix by hand.   When I started consulting for pizzerias around the US I got angry because even the lowly hobart planetary mixers I ran into made a dough that was as good as my hand kneaded dough, or better.   I always thought that I would have to buy some hulking monster to use at home if I didn't want to go through all the work of hand mixing (which I rarely have time for any more). As it turns out the Bosch in my opinion makes a dough that is just as good as a professional planetary mixer or spiral mixer and it happens to be one of the cheaper home mixers out there.   Having said that, I in no way consider myself a master hand mixer.   I have a feeling there are people out there that can probably make the best dough by hand, but that is just not me.  For me a spiral mixer, fork mixer, or the bosch (believe it or not) make the best doughs.

[scott r]

Scott - Thank you for the posting. Do you have the stainless bowl, and do you think it is necessary?

BTW, I used to see LTC all over Boston when I was in undergrad (early nineties) - fantastic band. Small world.

John

thats really funny about cleo, indeed a small world!

Maybe marc (widespread pizza) can chime in about the steel bowl.  I just use the plastic one that came with the mixer (on his recommendation), but I forget why he said that the steel may not be needed.   

[Jackie Tran]

Scott r, thank you for the detailed response.  This will be very helpful to those of us new at using the Bosch mixer.  I wasn't planning to but I will do the post initial mix rest period.   Your video really helps to confirm the quality of dough that can be kneaded with the Bosch.  

In your experiments did you find any difference in dumping all the ingredients (along with 100%) of the flour in at once versus 75% of the flour initially and the remainder incrementally?  With hand kneading I haven't notice a big difference in the end result with my preference leaning towards add all the flour in initially.    

Again - much thanks as always.
Chau

[scott r]

In your experiments did you find any difference in dumping all the ingredients (along with 100%) of the flour in at once versus 75% of the flour initially and the remainder incrementally?  With hand kneading I haven't notice a big difference in the end result with my preference leaning towards add all the flour in initially.    

I haven't really done a lot of experimenting with a gradual addition of the flour.   It is something that I grew to hate after being forced into it with the electrolux and santos mixers I used before the bosch.  When I made that first dough with the bosch and it was as good as my best doughs with those other mixers.....and it was the easiest mix I had ever done I just stuck with the simple "throw it all in" method.   After a while I tried the gradual addition of flour a few times, but never in controlled experiments, so I don't really want to comment either way.  My concern is that it might take some consistency out of the end product, but it might open up some room for a little higher quality.   I would love it if you guys would try it and get back to me with your results, though. 

Actually here is something I have been wanting to try, and I think it is a better way to go about being "fancy" while mixing in the bosch.    This mixer comes with a beater attachment thats purpose is to  whip tons of air into things.   We all know how much yeast loves air, and that the best mixers incorporate lots of oxygen into the mixing process.   What if you put all the water, and say half the flour from your recipe into the bosch and whip the heck out of it with the beaters.   Then add in the rest of the flour and the normal dough attachment to incorporate all the remaining ingredients, then the 20 min rest followed by the normal mix.   You may want to knock off a minute of the mix time from where you would normally go.  As always with experiments like this the only true way to know if its making a difference is to do another batch with all the same ingredients etc. (water temp included), but with a simple mixing method like I outlined in my first post in the thread.   Something tells me this might take a mix in the bosch to the next level.   Again, definitely come back here with the results if anyone feels like trying this.

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, I would be happy to run this experiment once I get my mixer in if Alexi hasn't beaten me to it yet.

The dough you posted above looks well aerated/oxygenated/oxidized to me.  I doubt whipping it could add much more air to it.   

I did an experiment along a similar line back some time that involved overkneading a caputo dough in the wet (pancake batter) stage using a food processor.  I added 50-60% of the flour along with the salt and yeast and proceeded to do about 60+ revolutions in this wet stage.  I then slowly added the rest of the flour in and stop kneading when the dough temp was around 78F.  I wanted to keep it under 80F.  I did get a decent texture with it but attributed this to the low protein value of the flour.  When I tried repeating the experiment using a HG flour, I got a dry crumb despite using a high overall hydration ratio.

I think how much kneading a dough can tolerate (whether in the wet or a drier state) varies depending on it's protein level and the hydration ratio.

Whipping or over aerating a dough may or may not be beneficial depending on how much gluten is developed.  The end texture can suffer if too much gluten is developed.  As an example of this, I overkneaded in the wet stage 3 different batches (AP/Caputo/&HG flour) using a high hydration ratio and both the caputo and HG flour ended up with a dry crumb. 

I posted this experiment here.   Reply #20.  I talk about how dry the crumb was in reply #37. 
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.20.html.  If I can do this with hand kneading and a high hydration ratio, it would be much easier using a mixer and a lower hydration ratio. 

I think any benefits of increase yeast activity via super aerating a dough could also be achieved by just upping the yeast amount a bit.  At least this way you would avoid any potential of overkneading the dough. 

Chau