Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer

[ponzu]

Some inspiration from a real coal oven at totonnos (mine is electric). 

Another very coal oven looking pie from apizza scholls

Apizza scholls is in my neck of the woods.  Good pie, though I prefer kens artisan.  To my eye your pie looks way better.

AZ

[Essen1]

Scott,

I took a shot at your dough in my Cuisinart SM-55 mixer yesterday.

I also tried your suggested challenge of "beating the hell" out of it...here's a video.

We all know how much yeast loves air, and that the best mixers incorporate lots of oxygen into the mixing process.   What if you put all the water, and say half the flour from your recipe into the bosch and whip the heck out of it with the beaters.   Then add in the rest of the flour and the normal dough attachment to incorporate all the remaining ingredients, then the 20 min rest followed by the normal mix.

I took a little video and the outcome was pretty clear...the Bosch is a superior mixer. At least to mine.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKhSwSfSjiA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKhSwSfSjiA</a>

However, it was a great dough judging by the feel of it and the way it handled. It'll go into the oven soon, but since I don't have an electric one that goes beyond 600°F, and I don't dare to put it in the LBE, it might look a bit different than yours.

[scott r]

It will look a bit different, but 600 is still a great temp.    I think that many of the coal fired ovens in NYC are actually right around that temp for much of the day.     You should be able to get a great pizza, just not the browning I have.   I think your dough looks really good!  Im excited that people are showing interest in my "whip air into the dough" idea, and I hope some people do some side by side comparisons with and without the whip.   

[Matthew]

It will look a bit different, but 600 is still a great temp.    I think that many of the coal fired ovens in NYC are actually right around that temp for much of the day.     You should be able to get a great pizza, just not the browning I have.   I think your dough looks really good!  Im excited that people are showing interest in my "whip air into the dough" idea, and I hope some people do some side by side comparisons with and without the whip.   

Hey Scott,
Great job bro!  What method do you use to get your oven to 700 degrees?  I think I'm the only member on the forum with a spiral mixer.  I will shoot a video next time I run a batch batch for my home oven; using your formula.  I have never mixed a dough to full gluten development because I typically do a long fermentation & therefore only mix until I achieve moderate gluten development which takes about 6 minutes.  For the demo purpose I'll use fresh yeast instead of starter & mix for about 10 minutes.  Did you cold ferment the dough prior to using or was it a same day dough?

Matt

[Jackie Tran]

Mike that dough looks great. Can you detail that particular mix so we have it on file to link back to if we need it?  I'll be interested in your impression of this "whipped" dough after it bakes compared to your regular NY oven pies. Also if I remember correctly your normal hydration ratio is 63% compared to Scotts 59%?

Matt, I asked a similar question. See Scotts reply in reply #10.  Scott r, what I should have asked earlier, is this the consistency you usually mix to or did you only do that for the video to show off what the Bosch can do? Also does the Bosch mix to windowpane in 8m or does the dough only window pane after the 20m post knead rest?

[Matthew]

Matt, I asked a similar question. See Scotts reply in reply #10.  Scott r, what I should have asked earlier, is this the consistency you usually mix to or did you only do that for the video to show off what the Bosch can do? Also does the Bosch mix to windowpane in 8m or does the dough only window pane after the 20m post knead rest?

That's exactly it.  I've never mixed a dough to full gluten development & am curious as to the usability window.

Matt

[PizzaSean]

Wow, wow, wow...

What a fantastic looking pizza!  I'm curious about a few things - what is your oven setup that you used to get the 700F?  I love the browning and have been struggling in my own setup to achieve that kind of browning on the top of the rim - I'm 550F, soapstone with maybe 6" clearance.  I make 18" pies so far because I like getting the most I can into the oven, and I grew up with 18" pies so they just seem like the only way to go.  Maybe I should try bringing the rack up one more notch for more like 4" clearance or something?

Also... the video made me wonder about my mixing process.  You mentioned that you've done a lot of hand mixing, and since I don't own a mixer that is all I have ever done (in the 2 times I've made dough!! haha).  But anyway... I'm curious because I've done 66% hydration both times and I end up with a very sticky mass that is hard to mix (AT flour I'll also mentioned) and is tough to cut through with the dough cutter when I want to ball it up.  I've been pleased with the end results after a 2-day cold ferment and was leaning towards undermixing/underkneading at the advice of scott123 because he mentioned how my formula cold fermenting for two days would act like kneading functionally. 

So I guess my question is - are there any advantages to having a super smooth dough like what you end up which is more thoroughly mixed?  What would you say they are?  Do I have any hopes of getting near that without a mixer? 

Thanks!
Sean

[scott r]

Hey Scott,
Great job bro!  What method do you use to get your oven to 700 degrees?  I think I'm the only member on the forum with a spiral mixer.  I will shoot a video next time I run a batch batch for my home oven; using your formula.  I have never mixed a dough to full gluten development because I typically do a long fermentation & therefore only mix until I achieve moderate gluten development which takes about 6 minutes.  For the demo purpose I'll use fresh yeast instead of starter & mix for about 10 minutes.  Did you cold ferment the dough prior to using or was it a same day dough?

Matt, I have an italian countertop oven that I use to get to 700.  I have used your sp5 spiral mixer before and it totally rocks.   Its the only mixer I know of that its small enough for a home, easy to use, and as good as (or better than) the bosch.  The dough I made was left to rest on the counter for two hours after mixing to get a little head start on the fermentation, then it was balled and put into the fridge.   With only .1% yeast this dough was actually still going strong a week after mixing (with a 1 hour warm up time out of the fridge).   If it is used a day or two after mixing I let the dough sit out until it has doubled before I bake with it (which can take many hours).   So in some ways its a fridge rise and a room temp dough combined (depending on when you use it).   When I used it after one week in the fridge there was almost no expansion in volume at all but it baked up just the same (but tastier) as when I used it two days after mixing (the pictured dough).   

[Essen1]

Mike that dough looks great. Can you detail that particular mix so we have it on file to link back to if we need it?  I'll be interested in your impression of this "whipped" dough after it bakes compared to your regular NY oven pies. Also if I remember correctly your normal hydration ratio is 63% compared to Scotts 59%?

Chau,

I was basically the same mixing regimen, time-wise, as Scott's with the exception of a minute or so of beating all the water, yeast and half the flour before the rest went in. The cold-rise (bulk) was 24hrs. But like I said before, my home oven doesn't go as high as Scott's so the browning is much lighter as you can see in the pics.

The dough was fantastic, though! Smooth, silky and almost no weak spots except for one but I attribute that to my stretching rather than the dough itself.

I also took a short video of the opened skin so you can see how smooth it is. Excuse dark lighting and the garbled audio but it's a new cam and I'm still trying to figure out all its functions and how to make adjustments on the fly.

I have one suggestion, though, for the guys who might want to use this dough as a basis for a great NY-style pizza since Scott was going after a New haven-style pizza. For that, I'd increase the hydration by one percentage point to 60% and up the yeast to maybe 0.3% instead of 0.1%, then do a 24 - 48 hr cold-rise...but that's just me.

But the pie came out great, regardless. The taste was fantastic. I encourage others to give this one a shot and report back.

Scott, thanks for posting the formula! Great stuff.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD-7evyrNm4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD-7evyrNm4</a>

[scott r]

Scott r, what I should have asked earlier, is this the consistency you usually mix to or did you only do that for the video to show off what the Bosch can do? Also does the Bosch mix to windowpane in 8m or does the dough only window pane after the 20m post knead rest?

I am not a big follower of the undermixed dough thing, although I understand the science behind it and have done it many times myself.    I think the no knead recipes that came out a few years ago got a lot of people on this tip, and it works, but for me the absolute best of the best dough batches I have ever made were fairly well mixed.   An under mixed dough can be really good when everything else is in perfect, though.    For me how far a dough is mixed has a lot more to do with how much fermentation I am going to give it, and wether it is going to be a room temp dough, or its going to sit in the fridge for a really long time.   When I baked up this dough yesterday for a friend of mine who is into pizza he couldn't stop talking about how the flavor of my dough just blows away anything he has ever had (and he has been to a lot of eliete pizzerias).   This puzzled me because honestly, this batch of dough was really just meant for you guys to see what the bosch can do with a throw it all in there mix.  If im trying to go for my best possible dough I use a starter, which obviously has all the flavor.   I thought about it and realized that the reason he liked the flavor of my dough so much was because it was really all the way at the end of its possible fermentation cycle.   Now if I had undermixed the dough I would have never been able to get to that amount of fermentation/flavor and still been able to get the pizza into the oven without it acting like a huge blob of green slime (remember that stuff that came in the mini green trash can we played with as kids?).   Having said all that, although this dough may look like it was mixed to ultra full gluten development to some, it really was not even as mixed as most pizzerias around the country are doing.   The bosch just makes dough look like this!

The dough does not look like it did in my video until it has had a 20 minute or so rest after mixing.   

[scott r]

So I guess my question is - are there any advantages to having a super smooth dough like what you end up which is more thoroughly mixed?  What would you say they are?  Do I have any hopes of getting near that without a mixer? 

Thanks!
Sean

You can make dough that looks like this with hand mixing but its a lot of work, and you would definitely have to lower your hydration quite a bit.   Good luck sean, and I don't mean to step on anybodies toes,  Scott123 knows what hes doing, and there are many ways to make a great pizza!

[scott r]

I have one suggestion, though, for the guys who might want to use this dough as a basis for a great NY-style pizza since Scott was going after a New haven-style pizza. For that, I'd increase the hydration by one percentage point to 60% and up the yeast to maybe 0.3% instead of 0.1%, then do a 24 - 48 hr cold-rise...but that's just me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD-7evyrNm4

Essen1, your pizza looks great, and I want to thank you for trying this! I am curious as to why you feel that raising up the yeast amount would make a more NY than New Haven dough?   I totally understand that .3% yeast works great, and I often recommend that amount to pizzerias I am consulting for when they want to make a 1 day cold fermented dough and don't have a ton of space in their walk ins for dough storage.   I feel like there are definite advantages to using less yeast and a longer fermentation, but I want to make sure there isn't something im missing.  I think the .3 is what most slice joints are using, but I think most of the guys with 700 degree ovens and room temp fermentations are doing room temp rises and much less yeast.   Of course there are exceptions like patsys where the original harlem location is doing a high yeast cold fermented dough.   
s

[PizzaSean]

You can make dough that looks like this with hand mixing but its a lot of work, and you would definitely have to lower your hydration quite a bit.   Good luck sean, and I don't mean to step on anybodies toes,  Scott123 knows what hes doing, and there are many ways to make a great pizza!

Oh - totally!  I've had great success by following Scott123's exact advice and have followed his posts and learned a lot.  In no way was I trying to imply that his suggestions were no good -- just kind of found myself curious about that dough.  Thanks!

[scott r]

Just found this video of the dough at motorino.   This dough is definitely mixed even further than the dough in my video of the bosch.   http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/the-piemans-craft-stretching-pizza-dough-with-motorinos-mathieu-palombino.html

I just wanted to show this to explain the the bosch just makes a really really smooth dough, which can fool you into thinking that it is over (or very well) mixed.   

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

I was basically the same mixing regimen, time-wise, as Scott's with the exception of a minute or so of beating all the water, yeast and half the flour before the rest went in. The cold-rise (bulk) was 24hrs. But like I said before, my home oven doesn't go as high as Scott's so the browning is much lighter as you can see in the pics.

The dough was fantastic, though! Smooth, silky and almost no weak spots except for one but I attribute that to my stretching rather than the dough itself.

I also took a short video of the opened skin so you can see how smooth it is. Excuse dark lighting and the garbled audio but it's a new cam and I'm still trying to figure out all its functions and how to make adjustments on the fly.

I have one suggestion, though, for the guys who might want to use this dough as a basis for a great NY-style pizza since Scott was going after a New haven-style pizza. For that, I'd increase the hydration by one percentage point to 60% and up the yeast to maybe 0.3% instead of 0.1%, then do a 24 - 48 hr cold-rise...but that's just me.

But the pie came out great, regardless. The taste was fantastic. I encourage others to give this one a shot and report back.

Scott, thanks for posting the formula! Great stuff.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD-7evyrNm4

Thanks Mike, the pizza does look very tasty.  When I do repeat this test, I will adjust the yeast amount to my personal preference and ferment times as well. 

So I take it you normally don't mix for 8 minutes in your Cuisinart or to that consistency?  Or did you attribute the differences to the texture of the dough (window paning) to 1 min of whipping the wet dough.   If I've ever heard of abusing pizza dough this would be it.   

Did you note any differences in texture or crumb structure to your normal mixing regimen.  Would you post that as well for comparison sake?  I'll do the same test and post the results after I get the mixer but it's always good to get others perspectives as well. 

[Jackie Tran]

Scott r I really appreciate your perspective on kneading a dough well.   Your pizza knowledge and experience is vast and I thank you for sharing your knowledge.  I know some of us all do things differently but I don’t think anyone can argue with results.  If anyone can make a great pizza that he/she enjoys, who’s to say that how you achieve that result is wrong or right.   I also don’t believe we know everything there is to know about pizza either.  There may be a lot of uncharted territory out there. 
Heck who knows?  Maybe the truth that under kneading or kneading to moderate or full gluten development doesn’t really make as much a difference as we thought?   I few tests may clear this up. 

I thought about it and realized that the reason he liked the flavor of my dough so much was because it was really all the way at the end of its possible fermentation cycle. 

This statement really peaked my interest.  I once made a fabulous crust that was well kneaded, well yeasted, and cold fermented for 2 days to what  I believe was the end of it’s fermentation cycle and got a really out of this world crumb.  Can you talk a bit about the end of the fermentation cycle a bit?  How do you determine this?  Do you go by visual, aromatic cues?  The pie that your friend really liked had 0.1% yeast and was cold fermented for 2 days?
For this particular pie that your friend like so much.  How long did you let the dough sit at room temps before baking?
Did you yourself noted anything different or special about this crust as your friend noted? Or was it more just one of your usual crusts?

Also do you (or anyone else) know what type of flour motorino uses? 

Thanks,
Chau

[Essen1]

I am curious as to why you feel that raising up the yeast amount would make a more NY than New Haven dough?   I totally understand that .3% yeast works great, and I often recommend that amount to pizzerias I am consulting for when they want to make a 1 day cold fermented dough and don't have a ton of space in their walk ins for dough storage.

Scott,

The reason I mentioned the 0.3% was in respect to a shorter fermentation around 24 hrs or 48 hrs and a lower baking temp in terms of home ovens. It has always worked great for me.

I understand that a lower yeast amount and longer fermentation produces a great crust with lots of flavor like you have just proven with your dough and I will definitely keep working with your numbers for awhile to see if I can coax the same flavor out of it as you have. The bummer is that my home oven only goes up to 600°F, maybe 625°F on a really good day and with a 2 hr preheat time, so the end result will still be somewhat different.

But for a long, slow room - or even cold - fermentation the 0.1% is perfect, I think.

[scott r]

Can you talk a bit about the end of the fermentation cycle a bit?  How do you determine this?  Do you go by visual, aromatic cues?  The pie that your friend really liked had 0.1% yeast and was cold fermented for 2 days?
For this particular pie that your friend like so much.  How long did you let the dough sit at room temps before baking?
Did you yourself noted anything different or special about this crust as your friend noted? Or was it more just one of your usual crusts?

Also do you (or anyone else) know what type of flour motorino uses? 

Thanks,
Chau

The pie that my friend was commenting on was made with dough that was 1 week old, and had 1 hour of warm up time outside of the fridge before use.   Determining how fermented a dough is can be very easy or very hard depending on what type of dough you are making.   For a room temp dough it is very easy because you will actually see it rise and become huge.  Once you determine the maximum amount of expansion for your particular flour and recipe and mixing time you know to use it before that point.  For a fridge rise dough with very little yeast (like this one) it is almost impossible to tell without experience because it is possible for the dough not to rise at all and be over fermented.   In the case of the dough in the video I know from experience that with .1% yeast a week and a few days is going to be as long as I can hold it.  To me this crust did turn out very good, but nothing out of the ordinary.  The pies made toward the end of the week definitely tasted great, and the earlier pies may have had a slightly better texture.  

I think motorino is using caputo pizzeria flour

[scott r]

Scott,

The reason I mentioned the 0.3% was in respect to a shorter fermentation around 24 hrs or 48 hrs and a lower baking temp in terms of home ovens. It has always worked great for me.

I understand that a lower yeast amount and longer fermentation produces a great crust with lots of flavor like you have just proven with your dough and I will definitely keep working with your numbers for awhile to see if I can coax the same flavor out of it as you have. The bummer is that my home oven only goes up to 600°F, maybe 625°F on a really good day and with a 2 hr preheat time, so the end result will still be somewhat different.

But for a long, slow room - or even cold - fermentation the 0.1% is perfect, I think.

essen1, I am honored to have you working with my dough formula.   Thanks for all the interest!   I think your oven temp should have no real bearing on the amount of yeast you use.   I think you did the right thing when cooking at a slightly lower temp than I did.   You kept the bake time to a point where you weren't trying to match the amount of char and color that I achieved, with is smart. 

[Essen1]

essen1, I am honored to have you working with my dough formula.   Thanks for all the interest!   I think your oven temp should have no real bearing on the amount of yeast you use.   I think you did the right thing when cooking at a slightly lower temp than I did.   You kept the bake time to a point where you weren't trying to match the amount of char and color that I achieved, with is smart. 

Scott,

If I tried to match your crust color I would have had a hard, lifeless and charred disk coming out of the oven 

But then again, I'm 'forced' if you will to lower temps with my electric oven but would like to give this dough a test run in a higher temp oven such as the LBE. Any suggestions how to go about it with the dough? Higher hydration maybe?

Don't feel honored...I'm sure some of us here are happy that you posted the dough formulation in the first place! Myself included, so I'm the one that's honored and excited.