Author Topic: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer  (Read 13770 times)

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Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2010, 12:47:12 PM »

So I guess my question is - are there any advantages to having a super smooth dough like what you end up which is more thoroughly mixed?  What would you say they are?  Do I have any hopes of getting near that without a mixer? 

Thanks!
Sean

You can make dough that looks like this with hand mixing but its a lot of work, and you would definitely have to lower your hydration quite a bit.   Good luck sean, and I don't mean to step on anybodies toes,  Scott123 knows what hes doing, and there are many ways to make a great pizza!


Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2010, 12:55:34 PM »

I have one suggestion, though, for the guys who might want to use this dough as a basis for a great NY-style pizza since Scott was going after a New haven-style pizza. For that, I'd increase the hydration by one percentage point to 60% and up the yeast to maybe 0.3% instead of 0.1%, then do a 24 - 48 hr cold-rise...but that's just me.



Essen1, your pizza looks great, and I want to thank you for trying this! I am curious as to why you feel that raising up the yeast amount would make a more NY than New Haven dough?   I totally understand that .3% yeast works great, and I often recommend that amount to pizzerias I am consulting for when they want to make a 1 day cold fermented dough and don't have a ton of space in their walk ins for dough storage.   I feel like there are definite advantages to using less yeast and a longer fermentation, but I want to make sure there isn't something im missing.  I think the .3 is what most slice joints are using, but I think most of the guys with 700 degree ovens and room temp fermentations are doing room temp rises and much less yeast.   Of course there are exceptions like patsys where the original harlem location is doing a high yeast cold fermented dough.   
s
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 12:59:19 PM by scott r »

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2010, 01:01:54 PM »
You can make dough that looks like this with hand mixing but its a lot of work, and you would definitely have to lower your hydration quite a bit.   Good luck sean, and I don't mean to step on anybodies toes,  Scott123 knows what hes doing, and there are many ways to make a great pizza!

Oh - totally!  I've had great success by following Scott123's exact advice and have followed his posts and learned a lot.  In no way was I trying to imply that his suggestions were no good -- just kind of found myself curious about that dough.  Thanks!

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2010, 01:12:56 PM »
Just found this video of the dough at motorino.   This dough is definitely mixed even further than the dough in my video of the bosch.   http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/the-piemans-craft-stretching-pizza-dough-with-motorinos-mathieu-palombino.html

I just wanted to show this to explain the the bosch just makes a really really smooth dough, which can fool you into thinking that it is over (or very well) mixed.   

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »
Chau,

I was basically the same mixing regimen, time-wise, as Scott's with the exception of a minute or so of beating all the water, yeast and half the flour before the rest went in. The cold-rise (bulk) was 24hrs. But like I said before, my home oven doesn't go as high as Scott's so the browning is much lighter as you can see in the pics.

The dough was fantastic, though! Smooth, silky and almost no weak spots except for one but I attribute that to my stretching rather than the dough itself.

I also took a short video of the opened skin so you can see how smooth it is. Excuse dark lighting and the garbled audio but it's a new cam and I'm still trying to figure out all its functions and how to make adjustments on the fly.

I have one suggestion, though, for the guys who might want to use this dough as a basis for a great NY-style pizza since Scott was going after a New haven-style pizza. For that, I'd increase the hydration by one percentage point to 60% and up the yeast to maybe 0.3% instead of 0.1%, then do a 24 - 48 hr cold-rise...but that's just me.

But the pie came out great, regardless. The taste was fantastic. I encourage others to give this one a shot and report back.

Scott, thanks for posting the formula! Great stuff.




Thanks Mike, the pizza does look very tasty.  When I do repeat this test, I will adjust the yeast amount to my personal preference and ferment times as well. 

So I take it you normally don't mix for 8 minutes in your Cuisinart or to that consistency?  Or did you attribute the differences to the texture of the dough (window paning) to 1 min of whipping the wet dough.   If I've ever heard of abusing pizza dough this would be it.   :-D

Did you note any differences in texture or crumb structure to your normal mixing regimen.  Would you post that as well for comparison sake?  I'll do the same test and post the results after I get the mixer but it's always good to get others perspectives as well. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2010, 01:31:35 PM »
Scott r I really appreciate your perspective on kneading a dough well.   Your pizza knowledge and experience is vast and I thank you for sharing your knowledge.  I know some of us all do things differently but I dont think anyone can argue with results.  If anyone can make a great pizza that he/she enjoys, whos to say that how you achieve that result is wrong or right.   I also dont believe we know everything there is to know about pizza either.  There may be a lot of uncharted territory out there. 
Heck who knows?  Maybe the truth that under kneading or kneading to moderate or full gluten development doesnt really make as much a difference as we thought?   I few tests may clear this up. 

I thought about it and realized that the reason he liked the flavor of my dough so much was because it was really all the way at the end of its possible fermentation cycle. 

This statement really peaked my interest.  I once made a fabulous crust that was well kneaded, well yeasted, and cold fermented for 2 days to what  I believe was the end of its fermentation cycle and got a really out of this world crumb.  Can you talk a bit about the end of the fermentation cycle a bit?  How do you determine this?  Do you go by visual, aromatic cues?  The pie that your friend really liked had 0.1% yeast and was cold fermented for 2 days?
For this particular pie that your friend like so much.  How long did you let the dough sit at room temps before baking?
Did you yourself noted anything different or special about this crust as your friend noted? Or was it more just one of your usual crusts?

Also do you (or anyone else) know what type of flour motorino uses? 

Thanks,
Chau
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 01:37:32 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2010, 02:09:01 PM »
Quote
I am curious as to why you feel that raising up the yeast amount would make a more NY than New Haven dough?   I totally understand that .3% yeast works great, and I often recommend that amount to pizzerias I am consulting for when they want to make a 1 day cold fermented dough and don't have a ton of space in their walk ins for dough storage.

Scott,

The reason I mentioned the 0.3% was in respect to a shorter fermentation around 24 hrs or 48 hrs and a lower baking temp in terms of home ovens. It has always worked great for me.

I understand that a lower yeast amount and longer fermentation produces a great crust with lots of flavor like you have just proven with your dough and I will definitely keep working with your numbers for awhile to see if I can coax the same flavor out of it as you have. The bummer is that my home oven only goes up to 600F, maybe 625F on a really good day and with a 2 hr preheat time, so the end result will still be somewhat different.

But for a long, slow room - or even cold - fermentation the 0.1% is perfect, I think.
Mike

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Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2010, 02:12:22 PM »
Can you talk a bit about the end of the fermentation cycle a bit?  How do you determine this?  Do you go by visual, aromatic cues?  The pie that your friend really liked had 0.1% yeast and was cold fermented for 2 days?
For this particular pie that your friend like so much.  How long did you let the dough sit at room temps before baking?
Did you yourself noted anything different or special about this crust as your friend noted? Or was it more just one of your usual crusts?

Also do you (or anyone else) know what type of flour motorino uses? 

Thanks,
Chau




The pie that my friend was commenting on was made with dough that was 1 week old, and had 1 hour of warm up time outside of the fridge before use.   Determining how fermented a dough is can be very easy or very hard depending on what type of dough you are making.   For a room temp dough it is very easy because you will actually see it rise and become huge.  Once you determine the maximum amount of expansion for your particular flour and recipe and mixing time you know to use it before that point.  For a fridge rise dough with very little yeast (like this one) it is almost impossible to tell without experience because it is possible for the dough not to rise at all and be over fermented.   In the case of the dough in the video I know from experience that with .1% yeast a week and a few days is going to be as long as I can hold it.  To me this crust did turn out very good, but nothing out of the ordinary.  The pies made toward the end of the week definitely tasted great, and the earlier pies may have had a slightly better texture.  

I think motorino is using caputo pizzeria flour
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 02:14:04 PM by scott r »

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2010, 02:17:05 PM »
Scott,

The reason I mentioned the 0.3% was in respect to a shorter fermentation around 24 hrs or 48 hrs and a lower baking temp in terms of home ovens. It has always worked great for me.

I understand that a lower yeast amount and longer fermentation produces a great crust with lots of flavor like you have just proven with your dough and I will definitely keep working with your numbers for awhile to see if I can coax the same flavor out of it as you have. The bummer is that my home oven only goes up to 600F, maybe 625F on a really good day and with a 2 hr preheat time, so the end result will still be somewhat different.

But for a long, slow room - or even cold - fermentation the 0.1% is perfect, I think.

essen1, I am honored to have you working with my dough formula.   Thanks for all the interest!   I think your oven temp should have no real bearing on the amount of yeast you use.   I think you did the right thing when cooking at a slightly lower temp than I did.   You kept the bake time to a point where you weren't trying to match the amount of char and color that I achieved, with is smart. 


Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2010, 02:26:51 PM »
essen1, I am honored to have you working with my dough formula.   Thanks for all the interest!   I think your oven temp should have no real bearing on the amount of yeast you use.   I think you did the right thing when cooking at a slightly lower temp than I did.   You kept the bake time to a point where you weren't trying to match the amount of char and color that I achieved, with is smart. 

Scott,

If I tried to match your crust color I would have had a hard, lifeless and charred disk coming out of the oven  ;D

But then again, I'm 'forced' if you will to lower temps with my electric oven but would like to give this dough a test run in a higher temp oven such as the LBE. Any suggestions how to go about it with the dough? Higher hydration maybe?

Don't feel honored...I'm sure some of us here are happy that you posted the dough formulation in the first place! Myself included, so I'm the one that's honored and excited.  :chef:
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 02:28:23 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2010, 02:53:58 PM »
I actually like to lower the hydration as my baking temps get higher and higher to avoid floppy dough and gum layers that can easliy happen because of lightning quick bake times.   Having said that, its really important to understand that dough percentages can be wildly different depending on the time of year, and how the flour was stored at the wholesaler, or in  your home.    For example, There are a number of  places that I regularly buy flour from in 50 pound bags.   One place doesn't really have a dry room temp storage area, as they mostly specialize in supplying grande cheese.  I have another place I buy flour that keeps its dry goods in a huge loading dock with doors that must be 50 feet high that are open for much of the day.   If I want to make the same dough feel with the exact same type of flour I have often had to go 58% with flour from the place that leaves the doors open allowing in lots of humid air during the summer, and 63% from the place that stores its flour in a cooler with their cheese.   Because of this I find discussions on this forum of hydration percentages between two different bakers to be pointless, because there is really no way of knowing what the starting moisture content of our flours are.   I even see people cite manufacturing hydration specs in discussions.  Many times the four that we get at a grocery store, or even from wholesalers can be anywhere from a few weeks to a year old, and flour is stored in paper, which lets moisture in and out of the bag quickly.   This is why it is very important for pizzerias to stick with one flour supplier and have a custom recipe made for them, with their mixer and oven, in their pizzeria.  Of course the very best pizzaiolos adjust their hydration by feel with eatch new batch of flour that they receive.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »
scott r,

What you say is correct. In fact, not long ago I discussed this topic at Reply 402 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg101278/topicseen.html#msg101278. As that thread discusses, along with the posts linked in that thread, there are many factors that can affect the performance of a given flour. In my experience, members like to have a starting point when it comes to different flours. If I am trying to help a newbie, or anyone else for that matter, and I know the flour and its rated absorption value, I cite it. If I don't know that value, I suggest the closest hydration value for the type of flour. In my case, I use 5-lb bags of flour from the supermarket, where there is good rotation that pretty much guarantees that the flour I buy will be reasonably fresh. My operating conditions in my home environment are pretty much static beyond outside temperatures. As a result, I rarely have to touch the amounts of flour and water--maybe one time out of ten, if that. If I don't advise newbies the way I do on matters of hydration, I honestly don't know what I might tell them in the alternative. I would perhaps have to tell them to read the above-referenced posts, which are too technical for most newbies, and use Marco's method and weigh the water and add an amount of flour to achieve the desired finished dough condition, if the person even knows what that is. What "it" is also is different for different types of doughs.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2010, 04:14:16 PM »
this makes total sense peter,   you have to start somewhere!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2010, 07:07:23 PM »
I actually like to lower the hydration as my baking temps get higher and higher to avoid floppy dough and gum layers that can easliy happen because of lightning quick bake times.   Having said that, its really important to understand that dough percentages can be wildly different depending on the time of year, and how the flour was stored at the wholesaler, or in  your home.    For example, There are a number of  places that I regularly buy flour from in 50 pound bags.   One place doesn't really have a dry room temp storage area, as they mostly specialize in supplying grande cheese.  I have another place I buy flour that keeps its dry goods in a huge loading dock with doors that must be 50 feet high that are open for much of the day.   If I want to make the same dough feel with the exact same type of flour I have often had to go 58% with flour from the place that leaves the doors open allowing in lots of humid air during the summer, and 63% from the place that stores its flour in a cooler with their cheese.   Because of this I find discussions on this forum of hydration percentages between two different bakers to be pointless, because there is really no way of knowing what the starting moisture content of our flours are.   I even see people cite manufacturing hydration specs in discussions.  Many times the four that we get at a grocery store, or even from wholesalers can be anywhere from a few weeks to a year old, and flour is stored in paper, which lets moisture in and out of the bag quickly.   This is why it is very important for pizzerias to stick with one flour supplier and have a custom recipe made for them, with their mixer and oven, in their pizzeria.  Of course the very best pizzaiolos adjust their hydration by feel with eatch new batch of flour that they receive.

Scott,

What you and Peter mentioned makes complete sense. Unfortunately, I get my flour, like Peter, from the supermarket. However, I've been playing with the thought of getting a 50 lb bag from Giusto's here in SF. I've heard they do sell to the public right from their warehouse.

I have another question for you, though. How would you go about your formula if you wanted to use fresh yeast instead of dry yeast? Would it be the same percentage or would I have to up the value a bit?

Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2010, 07:40:43 PM »
Scott,



I have another question for you, though. How would you go about your formula if you wanted to use fresh yeast instead of dry yeast? Would it be the same percentage or would I have to up the value a bit?



Mikey,
You can keep the percentage the same & then do the conversion from dry to fresh or increase the % based on the numbers below.
1g ADY =2.2g CY
1g IDY=3g CY

Matt
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 07:44:33 PM by Matthew »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2010, 08:03:45 PM »
Mikey,
You can keep the percentage the same & then do the conversion from dry to fresh or increase the % based on the numbers below.
1g ADY =2.2g CY
1g IDY=3g CY

Matt

Thank you very much, Sir!  ;D

Appreciate the info, Bro.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2010, 01:27:16 PM »
I gave Scott's dough another try over the last couple of days. I stuck to the same formula, except I used fresh yeast this time, same mixing regimen, same fermentation time and same temp and bake times.

The crust was great in terms of taste and texture but it seemed it had a little less oven spring. I wonder if that has something to do with the fresh yeast or not?



Mike

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Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2010, 02:40:40 PM »
Wow, these pizzas have the right look.  I want one!   

I have gone back and forth using idy/ady/and fresh yeast without noticing and difference in oven spring.   Are you using a bosch, or another mixer?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2010, 02:49:48 PM »
Wow, these pizzas have the right look.  I want one!   

I have gone back and forth using idy/ady/and fresh yeast without noticing and difference in oven spring.   Are you using a bosch, or another mixer?

Scott,

Thanks for the kind words! Makes my day.  ;D

No Bosch, though. I use a Cusinart SM-55 stand mixer. The dough hook looks like a mix between a C-hook and a spiral hook.

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=241008&CategoryID=46706
Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2010, 02:51:27 PM »
I gave Scott's dough another try over the last couple of days. I stuck to the same formula, except I used fresh yeast this time, same mixing regimen, same fermentation time and same temp and bake times.

The crust was great in terms of taste and texture but it seemed it had a little less oven spring. I wonder if that has something to do with the fresh yeast or not?





Looking good!!!!! 

Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2010, 07:45:30 PM »
So I am fairly new to this forum but have been a bread baker for years and a pizza baker for a couple of years.  I was having parties at my house and using a hearth kit in my unmodified oven.  I decided to have a WFO built in my back yard.  The oven is a Casa 2G90 from Forno Bravo.  

I have had a DLX for years and have been attempting the Varasano dough.  The result is very inconsistent so when I saw Scott R.'s video on this thread I ordered a Bosch Universal Plus.  It has come in and this is my first batch.

I have a video but when I went to post it I was told "sorry, Guest and New Members are not allowed to post messages containing hyperlinks."  Maybe you can PM me and I can send you the video that way; but long story short it is not smooth like Scott's.  It tears pretty easy when doing the "glove" thing he did.  

Needless to say the dough is good but it is certainly not of Scott R's quality.

I used Scott's recipe in the thread but I reduced it down because I was looking to only make 9 dough balls of 310 grams.  

Here is the breakdown:

1600g of Gold Medal Better for Bread flour
944g of Water - (Dasani) (59%)
16g of IDY (1%)
40g of Sea Salt (2.5%)

I did not add the oil because I cook my pies at 800 degrees.  

Incidentally I got 8 dough balls.  I guess the Varasano recipe with a higher hydration is what is throwing me off.  With his recipe I get 9 dough balls.

I dumped in all the ingredients.  I mixed until everything was incorporated and then let it rest for 20 minutes.  I then mixed it for 8 minutes on low speed and let it rest for 20 minutes.  This is when I made the video.

I did notice the dough to be a little warm.  I took its temperature and it was 89 degrees.  It is a fairly warm day in Georgia today and inside our kitchen it is 83 degrees.

Any advice?

You guys rock and I can't tell you how much fun I have had "lurking" for the last couple of months.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 08:02:41 PM by boudie »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2010, 08:48:59 PM »
Boudie,

You got the yeast amount wrong.

Scott used 0.1%, not 1%. Or was that a typo?


Mike

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Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2010, 08:54:34 PM »
Not a typo at all, I was actually hoping it was something simple that I missed. 

I really appreciate it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 09:08:19 PM by boudie »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2010, 09:21:20 PM »
Boudie when you get to 5 posts or something around there you can start posting links. Its like that to stop spamming.

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2010, 01:57:46 AM »
Better for Bread flour can make a really wet dough.   You might need to drop your hydration by two points to match my look.   ALso, It is very important that the water goes in the bosch first.   I hadn't even though about doing any other way, but Marc pointed out recently that some people try liquid last and it can really screw up a batch.      Be careful using my mix times if you are changing your batch size (mine is very large).    Any mixer is going to need different mixing times based on a multitude of factors.  If I do smaller batches I mix for less time, or depending on the flour I mix for less time as well.   If I am using all purpose or 00 flours , especially with wet doughs my mix times can go up, and better for bread is fairly low protein for a bread flour.   Good luck boudie, and dont be discouraged if your dough isn't perfect right away.   You are going to need to hone the recipe to your situation.   
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 02:02:24 AM by scott r »