Author Topic: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer  (Read 11616 times)

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Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2010, 02:53:58 PM »
I actually like to lower the hydration as my baking temps get higher and higher to avoid floppy dough and gum layers that can easliy happen because of lightning quick bake times.   Having said that, its really important to understand that dough percentages can be wildly different depending on the time of year, and how the flour was stored at the wholesaler, or in  your home.    For example, There are a number of  places that I regularly buy flour from in 50 pound bags.   One place doesn't really have a dry room temp storage area, as they mostly specialize in supplying grande cheese.  I have another place I buy flour that keeps its dry goods in a huge loading dock with doors that must be 50 feet high that are open for much of the day.   If I want to make the same dough feel with the exact same type of flour I have often had to go 58% with flour from the place that leaves the doors open allowing in lots of humid air during the summer, and 63% from the place that stores its flour in a cooler with their cheese.   Because of this I find discussions on this forum of hydration percentages between two different bakers to be pointless, because there is really no way of knowing what the starting moisture content of our flours are.   I even see people cite manufacturing hydration specs in discussions.  Many times the four that we get at a grocery store, or even from wholesalers can be anywhere from a few weeks to a year old, and flour is stored in paper, which lets moisture in and out of the bag quickly.   This is why it is very important for pizzerias to stick with one flour supplier and have a custom recipe made for them, with their mixer and oven, in their pizzeria.  Of course the very best pizzaiolos adjust their hydration by feel with eatch new batch of flour that they receive.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »
scott r,

What you say is correct. In fact, not long ago I discussed this topic at Reply 402 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg101278/topicseen.html#msg101278. As that thread discusses, along with the posts linked in that thread, there are many factors that can affect the performance of a given flour. In my experience, members like to have a starting point when it comes to different flours. If I am trying to help a newbie, or anyone else for that matter, and I know the flour and its rated absorption value, I cite it. If I don't know that value, I suggest the closest hydration value for the type of flour. In my case, I use 5-lb bags of flour from the supermarket, where there is good rotation that pretty much guarantees that the flour I buy will be reasonably fresh. My operating conditions in my home environment are pretty much static beyond outside temperatures. As a result, I rarely have to touch the amounts of flour and water--maybe one time out of ten, if that. If I don't advise newbies the way I do on matters of hydration, I honestly don't know what I might tell them in the alternative. I would perhaps have to tell them to read the above-referenced posts, which are too technical for most newbies, and use Marco's method and weigh the water and add an amount of flour to achieve the desired finished dough condition, if the person even knows what that is. What "it" is also is different for different types of doughs.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2010, 04:14:16 PM »
this makes total sense peter,   you have to start somewhere!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2010, 07:07:23 PM »
I actually like to lower the hydration as my baking temps get higher and higher to avoid floppy dough and gum layers that can easliy happen because of lightning quick bake times.   Having said that, its really important to understand that dough percentages can be wildly different depending on the time of year, and how the flour was stored at the wholesaler, or in  your home.    For example, There are a number of  places that I regularly buy flour from in 50 pound bags.   One place doesn't really have a dry room temp storage area, as they mostly specialize in supplying grande cheese.  I have another place I buy flour that keeps its dry goods in a huge loading dock with doors that must be 50 feet high that are open for much of the day.   If I want to make the same dough feel with the exact same type of flour I have often had to go 58% with flour from the place that leaves the doors open allowing in lots of humid air during the summer, and 63% from the place that stores its flour in a cooler with their cheese.   Because of this I find discussions on this forum of hydration percentages between two different bakers to be pointless, because there is really no way of knowing what the starting moisture content of our flours are.   I even see people cite manufacturing hydration specs in discussions.  Many times the four that we get at a grocery store, or even from wholesalers can be anywhere from a few weeks to a year old, and flour is stored in paper, which lets moisture in and out of the bag quickly.   This is why it is very important for pizzerias to stick with one flour supplier and have a custom recipe made for them, with their mixer and oven, in their pizzeria.  Of course the very best pizzaiolos adjust their hydration by feel with eatch new batch of flour that they receive.

Scott,

What you and Peter mentioned makes complete sense. Unfortunately, I get my flour, like Peter, from the supermarket. However, I've been playing with the thought of getting a 50 lb bag from Giusto's here in SF. I've heard they do sell to the public right from their warehouse.

I have another question for you, though. How would you go about your formula if you wanted to use fresh yeast instead of dry yeast? Would it be the same percentage or would I have to up the value a bit?

Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2010, 07:40:43 PM »
Scott,



I have another question for you, though. How would you go about your formula if you wanted to use fresh yeast instead of dry yeast? Would it be the same percentage or would I have to up the value a bit?



Mikey,
You can keep the percentage the same & then do the conversion from dry to fresh or increase the % based on the numbers below.
1g ADY =2.2g CY
1g IDY=3g CY

Matt
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 07:44:33 PM by Matthew »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2010, 08:03:45 PM »
Mikey,
You can keep the percentage the same & then do the conversion from dry to fresh or increase the % based on the numbers below.
1g ADY =2.2g CY
1g IDY=3g CY

Matt

Thank you very much, Sir!  ;D

Appreciate the info, Bro.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2010, 01:27:16 PM »
I gave Scott's dough another try over the last couple of days. I stuck to the same formula, except I used fresh yeast this time, same mixing regimen, same fermentation time and same temp and bake times.

The crust was great in terms of taste and texture but it seemed it had a little less oven spring. I wonder if that has something to do with the fresh yeast or not?



Mike

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Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2010, 02:40:40 PM »
Wow, these pizzas have the right look.  I want one!   

I have gone back and forth using idy/ady/and fresh yeast without noticing and difference in oven spring.   Are you using a bosch, or another mixer?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2010, 02:49:48 PM »
Wow, these pizzas have the right look.  I want one!   

I have gone back and forth using idy/ady/and fresh yeast without noticing and difference in oven spring.   Are you using a bosch, or another mixer?


Scott,

Thanks for the kind words! Makes my day.  ;D

No Bosch, though. I use a Cusinart SM-55 stand mixer. The dough hook looks like a mix between a C-hook and a spiral hook.

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=241008&CategoryID=46706
Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2010, 02:51:27 PM »
I gave Scott's dough another try over the last couple of days. I stuck to the same formula, except I used fresh yeast this time, same mixing regimen, same fermentation time and same temp and bake times.

The crust was great in terms of taste and texture but it seemed it had a little less oven spring. I wonder if that has something to do with the fresh yeast or not?





Looking good!!!!! 


Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2010, 07:45:30 PM »
So I am fairly new to this forum but have been a bread baker for years and a pizza baker for a couple of years.  I was having parties at my house and using a hearth kit in my unmodified oven.  I decided to have a WFO built in my back yard.  The oven is a Casa 2G90 from Forno Bravo.  

I have had a DLX for years and have been attempting the Varasano dough.  The result is very inconsistent so when I saw Scott R.'s video on this thread I ordered a Bosch Universal Plus.  It has come in and this is my first batch.

I have a video but when I went to post it I was told "sorry, Guest and New Members are not allowed to post messages containing hyperlinks."  Maybe you can PM me and I can send you the video that way; but long story short it is not smooth like Scott's.  It tears pretty easy when doing the "glove" thing he did.  

Needless to say the dough is good but it is certainly not of Scott R's quality.

I used Scott's recipe in the thread but I reduced it down because I was looking to only make 9 dough balls of 310 grams.  

Here is the breakdown:

1600g of Gold Medal Better for Bread flour
944g of Water - (Dasani) (59%)
16g of IDY (1%)
40g of Sea Salt (2.5%)

I did not add the oil because I cook my pies at 800 degrees.  

Incidentally I got 8 dough balls.  I guess the Varasano recipe with a higher hydration is what is throwing me off.  With his recipe I get 9 dough balls.

I dumped in all the ingredients.  I mixed until everything was incorporated and then let it rest for 20 minutes.  I then mixed it for 8 minutes on low speed and let it rest for 20 minutes.  This is when I made the video.

I did notice the dough to be a little warm.  I took its temperature and it was 89 degrees.  It is a fairly warm day in Georgia today and inside our kitchen it is 83 degrees.

Any advice?

You guys rock and I can't tell you how much fun I have had "lurking" for the last couple of months.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 08:02:41 PM by boudie »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2010, 08:48:59 PM »
Boudie,

You got the yeast amount wrong.

Scott used 0.1%, not 1%. Or was that a typo?


Mike

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Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2010, 08:54:34 PM »
Not a typo at all, I was actually hoping it was something simple that I missed. 

I really appreciate it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 09:08:19 PM by boudie »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2010, 09:21:20 PM »
Boudie when you get to 5 posts or something around there you can start posting links. Its like that to stop spamming.

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2010, 01:57:46 AM »
Better for Bread flour can make a really wet dough.   You might need to drop your hydration by two points to match my look.   ALso, It is very important that the water goes in the bosch first.   I hadn't even though about doing any other way, but Marc pointed out recently that some people try liquid last and it can really screw up a batch.      Be careful using my mix times if you are changing your batch size (mine is very large).    Any mixer is going to need different mixing times based on a multitude of factors.  If I do smaller batches I mix for less time, or depending on the flour I mix for less time as well.   If I am using all purpose or 00 flours , especially with wet doughs my mix times can go up, and better for bread is fairly low protein for a bread flour.   Good luck boudie, and dont be discouraged if your dough isn't perfect right away.   You are going to need to hone the recipe to your situation.   
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 02:02:24 AM by scott r »

Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2010, 05:23:31 AM »
I appreciate everyone's coaching.  I am having a blast playing around with dough.

One more question, I am learning that the type of flour and even how the flour was stored makes a difference.  Other than just trial and error is there any other way to know your dough is ready?  Seems like you have to put it all together, rest it, mix it, then rest again before you really know if it is right. 

I know the answer is probably a lot of time, experience and knowing what to look for but I thought I would ask.

Thanks,

Bert

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2010, 11:44:00 AM »
Bert, with slower mixers, like standard hobart mixers with slow speeds, or italian fork mixers with mix times of 15-20 minutes (sometimes even longer), it is possible to feel or look at the dough while it is mixing to know when to stop it.   With the bosch and other mixers where they only need 7 minutes or so, its a lot harder.  The good news is that once you figure it out it will  make a consistent dough each time if you keep all other factors the same (same flour, hydrations etc.).    There have been times that at the end of 6 or 7 minutes in the bosch I have reached in to feel that the dough is really wet, and at that point I can add flour and mix for another minute or so.   These have not turned out to be my best doughs, however, so starting a new batch is usually the best way to go for me.   

I am wondering if you had put the flour in before the water on your first questionable batch.   Was that the case?

Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2010, 12:02:05 PM »
Scott:

I did put the water in first.

I did another batch today using your advice.  I took the hydration down to 57% and mixed for a little over 6 minutes.  The dough is in its final 20 minute resting right now. 

I did add .5 yeast because I want to use it tomorrow and I saw that you mentioned that on this thread at one point.  Other than that this is the only difference.

I am open to other types of flours.  When trying the Varasano method I was using 1/2 Caputo OO (25KG Blue Bag from PennMac) and 1/2 KABF.  This was the best results I had so far in my experimenting but never got it to be consistent.  If you have any other recommendations I am all ears.

I am having a lot of fun experimenting and have to say the Bosch is very easy to use.

Thanks for your help,

Bert

Offline scott r

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2010, 12:14:45 PM »
Bert, .5 is still a lot of yeast.  Make your dough balls right away and get them into the fridge asap.  There is a chance that they will be over fermented by tomorrow night, but I could be wrong.      Even if you go right into the fridge with your dough balls they may be doubled or more by the time you go to bed tonight.   If that is the case punch the dough down and get it quickly back into the fridge.  You also might want to turn the temp of your fridge down so it is colder than normal.  With a very cool fridge you should be fine, but some people's run much warmer than others.    Good luck.   
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 12:18:31 PM by scott r »

Offline boudie

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Re: Video of dough that just came out of a bosch universal plus mixer
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2010, 12:25:39 PM »
Scott:

I just finished balling and put in the frig per your advice.  I will keep an eye on it. 

Thanks,

Bert


 

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