Author Topic: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough  (Read 2367 times)

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Online norma427

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Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« on: September 20, 2010, 06:12:01 PM »
I read this post by scott r and though about how nice his dough looked, after I watched his video at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11900.msg110912.html#msg110912

I donít think I ever tried to see how the preferment Lehmann dough would behave after it was just mixed.  I have played around with different mixing times. 

I thought while I was at market today doing the final dough mix, I would try my dough to see how it would look after I started the division, before balling.  This dough is 61% hydration and this dough was mixed in a Hobart 20 qt. mixer. I mixed this dough for 6 minutes without any stops.  This is my usual mixing time. If anyone is interested in seeing how this dough behaved, it can be watched on two videos, that I took today.  The first video is of a 15 lb. batch and the second video is another 15 lb. batch, but on the second video, I let some dough that was leftover from the first batch, sit on the bench, in plastic wrap until I mixed the second 15 lb. batch.  Then I also tried to stretch and see how much that little bit of dough would stretch.

Playing with this dough reminded me of putting my hand into a puppet.  :-D  My dough tore much easier than scott rís.

In conclusion scott rís dough looks much better than my dough.

Videos



and




Norma
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Offline scott r

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 07:07:57 PM »
Norma, I think your being too hard on yourself. That dough looks good to me.  Ill bet if I had mixed a minute or two less, and dropped my hydration a bit we would be in just about the same ballpark.   Even though they get slagged, as they may not quite be as good as a spiral mixer, I think hobarts are really pretty rocking!    Having said that, the bosch is probably closer to the quality of a good spiral mixer, so it might have a slight advantage over a hobart, but not much.   


also, it is of my opinion that while a preferment can add some flavor to a dough, it does take away somewhat from the final dough texture when you compare a similar dough with the straight method.  This alone (the preferment) might just account for why you think my dough looks better than yours.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 07:09:50 PM by scott r »

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 07:29:59 PM »
Norma, I think your being too hard on yourself. That dough looks good to me.  Ill bet if I had mixed a minute or two less, and dropped my hydration a bit we would be in just about the same ballpark.   Even though they get slagged, as they may not quite be as good as a spiral mixer, I think hobarts are really pretty rocking!    Having said that, the bosch is probably closer to the quality of a good spiral mixer, so it might have a slight advantage over a hobart, but not much.   


also, it is of my opinion that while a preferment can add some flavor to a dough, it does take away somewhat from the final dough texture when you compare a similar dough with the straight method.  This alone (the preferment) might just account for why you think my dough looks better than yours.

Scott,

Good to hear you think my dough looks fine.  I wonder what would happen if I let the dough sit awhile in the mixer and then mixed a little more.  I can understand that a spiral mixer is better, because they can gently mix the dough.  I only mix one speed one and didnít know a preferment could affect a dough so much in looking different than a straight dough. 

I appreciate your opinion on how my dough looks.  Coming from you I am glad you think it looks fine.  :)  Your dough really does look amazing in your video.  ;D

Thanks for looking at the videos,

Norma
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Offline scott r

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2011, 01:25:02 PM »

also, it is of my opinion that while a preferment can add some flavor to a dough, it does take away somewhat from the final dough texture when you compare a similar dough with the straight method.  This alone (the preferment) might just account for why you think my dough looks better than yours.

I was WRONG!    I just wasn't using the right amount of preferment and accounting enough for the shorter proofing time needed.   I just happened upon this old post of mine and wanted to say that when done right a preferment can actually help to make a better texture!

Offline fazzari

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 02:10:40 PM »
Norma and Scott,
I have a question, but I want to set the question up.  Years ago, I went to Manhattan Kansas and took Tom Lehmann's week long class on pizza dough.  On the day we talked about mixing, Tom claimed that pizza dough should be purposely undermixed, because time would finish the gluten development.  In fact here is a video of Tom describing the process:
http://pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_256/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough-pt-1b/
Anyway, after mixing the dough ala Tom, he took a dough ball the next day, put 4 of us in a circle, and we slowly opened up the dough ball I'll bet to at least 30 inches....the purpose of the exercise was to show us that time itself allowed us to stretch this dough paper thin...you could see through it.

And so my question is, is there a benefit that you can describe in mixing dough as much as you are in your videos, knowing they will sit at least overnight?  Another question, how does differing intensities of mixing affect the final product many hours or days later....and if there is no affect, does this mean it really doesn't matter how long one mixes dough as long as there is a long fermentation process??

This inquiring mind would like to know
Thank you
John

Online norma427

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 02:52:04 PM »
Norma and Scott,
I have a question, but I want to set the question up.  Years ago, I went to Manhattan Kansas and took Tom Lehmann's week long class on pizza dough.  On the day we talked about mixing, Tom claimed that pizza dough should be purposely undermixed, because time would finish the gluten development.  In fact here is a video of Tom describing the process:
http://pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_256/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough-pt-1b/
Anyway, after mixing the dough ala Tom, he took a dough ball the next day, put 4 of us in a circle, and we slowly opened up the dough ball I'll bet to at least 30 inches....the purpose of the exercise was to show us that time itself allowed us to stretch this dough paper thin...you could see through it.

And so my question is, is there a benefit that you can describe in mixing dough as much as you are in your videos, knowing they will sit at least overnight?  Another question, how does differing intensities of mixing affect the final product many hours or days later....and if there is no affect, does this mean it really doesn't matter how long one mixes dough as long as there is a long fermentation process??

This inquiring mind would like to know
Thank you
John

John,

I know scott r has a lot more experience than I do in making doughs.  He is probably the one that can answer your question best. 

I have tried longer and shorter mix times in my Hobart mixer and even in my home doughs mixed in the my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I have mixed from the cottage cheese stage and really mixed a dough a long while.  I still am not sure what the best way to mix any dough.  It seems to me that a higher hydration dough does only need a shorter mix time  (maybe even only until all the ingredients are mixed). It seems to me that if given a long enough fermentation the dough will form gluten by itself.  I still am trying to figure all this out to see how the dough behaves better.  I have experimented at market with many kinds of mix times and really donít see a lot different in my doughs if they are left to cold ferment for one day. I have timed the mixes on my preferment Lehmann dough many times.  I do fully mix the preferment Lehmann dough. I have tried anywhere from 4 minutes to 12 minutes. The only difference I can see if the final dough temperature is too high. I have tried a dough like the Mackís clone (which is a lower hydration dough), and that seems to be able to be mixed much longer.  I wish this was a easy question too. 

Hopefully scott r can shed some light for me too!

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 07:15:04 PM »
Norma
I got to work today and the new issue of Pizza Today was there...would you believe one of the articles was by Tom Lehmann regarding mixing times????  The new issue isn't at their website yet so I wasn't able to post a link...but in a very brief nutshell...he states that if you are mixing your dough in the 15 to 20 minute range, you won't see much change in either dough or finished product with a reduced mix time.  He says you will begin to see a change in both the dough and finished pizza when the mixing time (planetary mixer) falls in the 7 minutes range.  He says the main reason for under mixing a dough is to achieve a more open, porous internal crumb structure in the finished crust.  This type of internal crumb structure is conducive to achieving a light, tender eating characteristic, while promoting a crispy bottom crust characteristic.

So, at least from Tom Lehmann's perspective, I assume he says that after a given level of mixing it doesn't really matter how much you mix because you will see very little difference in dough or finished product.  I was just wondering by my original question if you or Scott or anyone notices anything different than this...and since I am always looking for the simple answer, if I were one who tended to mix doughs a long time, wouldn't I want to find the shortest amount of time to accomplish this???

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2011, 07:41:32 PM »
So, at least from Tom Lehmann's perspective, I assume he says that after a given level of mixing it doesn't really matter how much you mix because you will see very little difference in dough or finished product.  I was just wondering by my original question if you or Scott or anyone notices anything different than this...and since I am always looking for the simple answer, if I were one who tended to mix doughs a long time, wouldn't I want to find the shortest amount of time to accomplish this???

John

John - According to Suas mixing time is quite scientific based on mixer type and RPM. You match up your RPMs to the desired finished dough state (short, improved or intensive), and based on those factors you can get a mix time on a specific speed for your mixer type. The book has a chart for reference.

John

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 09:03:25 PM »
John - According to Suas mixing time is quite scientific based on mixer type and RPM. You match up your RPMs to the desired finished dough state (short, improved or intensive), and based on those factors you can get a mix time on a specific speed for your mixer type. The book has a chart for reference.

John

When I say time, I "mean" it as it pertains to a desired finished dough state given the mixer one uses...what I mean to ask is how do the differences in finished dough state affect a final product that has yet to be fermented say overnight or maybe 3 nights.

John

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 10:47:03 PM »
Norma
I got to work today and the new issue of Pizza Today was there...would you believe one of the articles was by Tom Lehmann regarding mixing times????  The new issue isn't at their website yet so I wasn't able to post a link...but in a very brief nutshell...he states that if you are mixing your dough in the 15 to 20 minute range, you won't see much change in either dough or finished product with a reduced mix time.  He says you will begin to see a change in both the dough and finished pizza when the mixing time (planetary mixer) falls in the 7 minutes range.  He says the main reason for under mixing a dough is to achieve a more open, porous internal crumb structure in the finished crust.  This type of internal crumb structure is conducive to achieving a light, tender eating characteristic, while promoting a crispy bottom crust characteristic.

So, at least from Tom Lehmann's perspective, I assume he says that after a given level of mixing it doesn't really matter how much you mix because you will see very little difference in dough or finished product.  I was just wondering by my original question if you or Scott or anyone notices anything different than this...and since I am always looking for the simple answer, if I were one who tended to mix doughs a long time, wouldn't I want to find the shortest amount of time to accomplish this???

John

John,

I am sure Tom Lehmann knows what he is talking about.  I am always looking for an easy solution too, for mix times, open, porous internal crumb structure in the finished crust with a crispy bottom.  In all the experiments I have done at home, by hand, in my Kitchen Aid, and my Hobart at market, I really donít have any answers. I really donít know how all this relates to a small batch or large batch of dough, hydration, ingredients, etc.  Just yesterday I used a biscuit mix with a ďgoody bagĒ Peter recommended.  That dough was only mixed for a very short while by hand with a rubber spatula. The dough was only fermented for a few hours. That pizza came out great.  Now I am back to square one, in not be able to figure any of this out.  ???

Norma
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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 10:49:40 PM »
John - According to Suas mixing time is quite scientific based on mixer type and RPM. You match up your RPMs to the desired finished dough state (short, improved or intensive), and based on those factors you can get a mix time on a specific speed for your mixer type. The book has a chart for reference.

John

John,

What have you learned by mixing by hand or machine in knowing when your mix time is right?  I would be interested in hearing your opinions.

Norma
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Offline scott r

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 02:33:31 AM »

And so my question is, is there a benefit that you can describe in mixing dough as much as you are in your videos, knowing they will sit at least overnight?  Another question, how does differing intensities of mixing affect the final product many hours or days later....and if there is no affect, does this mean it really doesn't matter how long one mixes dough as long as there is a long fermentation process??

This inquiring mind would like to know
Thank you
John

John, Just like tom lehmann, I prefer to mix a dough to what is often referred to as "moderate" gluten development.   The dough in that video was actually mixed a little more than I typically go, but not by much. It only spent 8 minutes on the slowest speed (which is even slower than the previous bosch non "plus" universals) and with this mixer and the bread flour I used I could have mixed for at least another 5 minutes before achieving full gluten development.    The bosch mixer just makes doughs that look very smooth, but if you notice how easily the dough pulls into connected long strands you can tell that it has not been taken to full gluten development.   Maybe with a wetter dough you could achieve this easy pull, but the dough I pictured was fairly dry (60% hydration), and at that hydration a fully developed gluten matrix would have made it much harder to stretch out.  The uber smoothness without too much gluten development is one of the things I really like about the bosch, and showing that was my point of making the video.  

My opinion is that if I had mixed to full gluten development, as many bread bakers do, the pizza would have been a bit tough after spending a day in the fridge with typical yeast levels.     I would never go to full gluten development (in excess of 15 minutes--maybe 20 minutes--with a hobart and high gluten flour at a medium hydration), but there are two situations where I would mix just slightly longer than my normal amount.  

I often make combination room temp/fridge rise doughs with very minmal yeast, well under .1%, and with these doughs a very long stay is possible in the fridge.   I know that we are taught that gluten can be formed just by letting the dough sit, but I sometimes mix just slightly longer if I know I am going to use the dough very far into the future (a week or more). I could be crazy, but this seems to help a little with the finished texture.   I would love to hear your thoughts or results of any experiments on the subject.  

I prefer to make a pizza with dough that is as far into fermentation as I can get it, while still retaining enough sugar to get color.  Since at this stage the dough can be on the brink of gluten collapse, I find it can help to give just a little more mix time up front.  I think you tend to address this issue with a reballing of the dough (another way to do it, and maybe even better way to go if you are around to deal with it).     Unfortunately  with the additional mix time up front there is potential for a little extra toughness if the dough is used on the early side of the fermentation window, so this is not really advisable for a pizzeria where  dough use is stretched out over a few days with fridge rise dough, or expected to perform at its peak during an entire dinner service with a room temp dough.  
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 10:25:29 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 12:59:26 PM »
Scott,
Thank you so much for your reply!!!  I hope you understand that the reason I wonder about these things is that there seems in my mind to be an evolution in dough making as more and more information is learned.  For instance on one hand older Reinhart recipes called on mixing to window pane development, while his newer ones don't.  And as for Lehmann, back in the early 2000's, when I took his class, he mixed his dough to a much less developed stage, than he does in the video I linked in my post to you and Norma.  Now, both of them and others (I include you Scott), know way more than I will ever know about dough...and so one looks at all the info available, and wonders what is the way to go???  And so that leads me to experimentation....which I love to do!!!!  I appreciate your time, Scott.

John


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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 02:17:41 PM »
John, when talking about mixing times we also have to take into consideration the strength of the flour, the hydration, salt amounts, and use of oil.   All these things affect gluten development and thereby affect how long we mix for.  

We also have to consider the type of mixing, how gentle or rough the dough is being mixed.  That's why a certain mix time will only apply to that specific dough or a similar dough.    As an example, if you take any dough and vary the hydration alone by 10%, the mix times until full gluten development will vary drastically.   After that, I agree that there seems to be a period where excess mixing doesn't seem to affect the dough positiively or negatively until it's overmixed and then at some point gluten matrix falls apart.   But Tom is correct in that (generally speaking) a 7min mix vs a 15-20m mix can give a very different crumb.  The longer the mix, the tigher the cell structure tends to be.

Even trickier when it comes to the finished product/crumb is the use of starters (the acids in starters), cold fermentation, and added manipulation of the dough through S&Fs or reballing also have a strength building effect on the gluten structure as well, which also indirectly affect mix times.  

When you consider all these factors, the mix time in and of itself means very little.   It's dough consistency we should be paying attention to more so than mix times.  

To make matters more confusing, I recently hand kneaded a HG dough (no oil) to window pane, cold fermented, and then reballed afterwards to make a pretty decent NY style pizza.   I'll admit it was slightly tougher/chewier than I prefer but not bad by any means.   This breaks a few of the generally accepted rules when it comes to pizza making.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13728.0.html

I too have notice that the longer I mix, the tighter the cell structure I get in the crumb.   The faster and more vigorous I mix, the tougher the gluten and resulting crumb will be whether I do it by machine or by hand.  

Chau
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 03:12:06 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 07:15:02 PM »
Chau
Thanks for your reply.  As I read and experiment, I have to tell you, there is a lot of conflicting information out here.  For instance, if you follow the thread on Scott's excellent video....you read comments such as, "Boy, this shows how my hand kneading really sucks", or "so, that is what good dough looks like", when the reality is we have all made good looking pizza with dough that isn't as beautiful as the dough in the video..I think we can agree on that.  But, if I were to give you, Tom Lehmann, Peter Reinhart, Brian Spangler and Scott all a particular recipe with specific ingredients to make a pizza, and I told you the pizza would be baked in 3 days....and I left the mixing of the dough up to you....I'm wondering just how consistent you would all be at how far to develop the dough.

I think that would be a fantastic experiment!!!!....and Chau, I am inferring from almost everything I've seen or read, that the development of the dough is almost a minor thought, when it comes to long fermentation of doughs.  This is exactly what got me started experimenting with the Reinhart doughs....I know, I know, he's a bread guy......but he's still a pretty smart guy in my book.
Thanks
John

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2011, 08:59:59 PM »
Chau
Thanks for your reply.  As I read and experiment, I have to tell you, there is a lot of conflicting information out here.  For instance, if you follow the thread on Scott's excellent video....you read comments such as, "Boy, this shows how my hand kneading really sucks", or "so, that is what good dough looks like", when the reality is we have all made good looking pizza with dough that isn't as beautiful as the dough in the video..I think we can agree on that.  But, if I were to give you, Tom Lehmann, Peter Reinhart, Brian Spangler and Scott all a particular recipe with specific ingredients to make a pizza, and I told you the pizza would be baked in 3 days....and I left the mixing of the dough up to you....I'm wondering just how consistent you would all be at how far to develop the dough.

I think that would be a fantastic experiment!!!!....and Chau, I am inferring from almost everything I've seen or read, that the development of the dough is almost a minor thought, when it comes to long fermentation of doughs.  This is exactly what got me started experimenting with the Reinhart doughs....I know, I know, he's a bread guy......but he's still a pretty smart guy in my book.
Thanks
John

I agree that there is a lot of conflicting info floating around, but know that just b/c info is conflicting it doesn't necessarily mean that one way is right or wrong.  They can both be right in different circumstances or situations.   People (like myself) often post or teach from experience and everyone's experience differs.   I can be well intentioned and have specific situations in mind when posting and it can still be wrong information or it can be misread b/c the circumstances on your end may differ.   So basically anyone posting can disseminate wrong information with good intentions.  This is why I keep saying to use recipes as a guideline only and to try and keep learning and experimenting.  Even I (truely a novice) need to keep constantly experimenting and learning.  I have seen first hand where I have been wrong about several things.

Also each of us have a very different idea of what perfect pizza should be like, so our methods can vary as we work towards our goal.  Consider that someone else's recipe is for their perfect pizza.  Even if you could duplicate it exactly you may not like the final product.  This is why I try out many different things and just adopt what works for me.  An example of this is seen in the Da Michele video thread.  Obviously Americans like a different kind of pizza.  

As far as judging dough by it's looks, I will refer back to my post about mixing times.  There are a lot of other factors that play into the final product (stretch and folds, temp, time, and extent of fermentation, and the bake itself).   What a dough looks like at one moment in time means very little in the overall picture.   As Scott has posted several times, he only kneaded that dough to that extent to show the capabilities of the Bosch mixer and he actually mixes to moderate  or almost full gluten development when making pizza.  

As far as good pizza or great pizza, that too is a constant moving target and highly dependant on your past experiences and your exposure.   We all develop higher standards the more pies we make and eat.   So what I deemed was good in the past, I today may say it's only mediocre.  

Your idea for the experiment is a good one, but we all would still stop kneading at different stages, b/c some of us like to do S&F's, (re)ball, or may have different methods of kneading.   Also we could end up with very different products given the same ingredients as we would all work towards making what we think is the ideal pizza.  Again, different strokes for different folks.    

I agree with you that Mr. Reinhart is a smart guy and so is Tom, and many folks here but it doesn't mean we can't be wrong even if we are well intentioned.  I see no fault in the experts changing their opinions to meet newly acquired knowledge or to meet the demands of the current trends.  To me, that is a sign that they are willing to be flexible, grow and learn new things which is admirable.

In my limited experience, the development or underdevelopment of the dough is vastly important in the outcome of the final crumb whether it be a short or long fermentation.   Dough development + proper baking = great pizza.   Those that don't pay attention to dough development, will take much longer to learn how to make good pizza.  

Chau
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 10:25:46 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2011, 10:14:44 PM »
Chau,
Fantastic reply...that's the reply I was hoping for.

Best wishes
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2011, 01:18:59 PM »
Norma
Lehmann's latest article on mixing times:
http://www.pizzatoday.com/imags/piz1105/pageflip.html
It starts on page 27.

John

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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2011, 04:29:37 PM »
Norma
Lehmann's latest article on mixing times:
http://www.pizzatoday.com/imags/piz1105/pageflip.html
It starts on page 27.

John


John,

Thanks for the link to the article from Tom Lehmann about mixing times.  :) I wonder how that relates to different hydrations doughs (especially much higher hydration doughs).  Tom says less mixing time relates to a more rustic dough and finished crust.  I also wonder how this relates to using preferments, if then also the dough is supposed to be mixed in the same way. 

What was your take or other members take on Tomís article?

Norma
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Re: Videos of preferment Lehmann dough to compare to scott rís dough
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2011, 04:50:27 PM »
Norma
I think Chau's last response above is exactly right!!!  If Lehmann is correct, than there must be a window of dough development stages where one will notice changes in the final product...and so it ends up being up to the wants of the baker, in accomplishing what he/she thinks is ideal.  I'm just wondering how dramatic the changes would really be??  Let's experiment some more Norma!!!

John


 

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