Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 32237 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #100 on: October 23, 2010, 03:55:24 PM »
Here is the 2nd pie and the 2 together.


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2010, 04:10:31 PM »
they Look very GOOD Chau !! how did they taste ?

for a frozen dough there is allot of spring...

just saw the second picture... thats is really different... same baking time ? and temps ?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 04:13:06 PM by andreguidon »
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Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2010, 05:11:24 PM »

In response to how small the amount of dough the Bosch will mix.  I usually mix between 430-1320 grams without a problem.  Yesterday I was doing a test dough that weighed 310 grams.  The machine was worthless as it was spinning  but there was no initial mix of the ingredients.  After trying to combine the ingredients with a spatula and the motor running, I gave up. So I had to knead by hand to bring it all together. I put it back in the bowl and the mixer then could finish the knead.

In a second experiment I made two "identical" doughs, one in the KA spiral and the second in the Bosch. I tried to bake them exactly buy you know how that goes.  All of the blind testers preferred the crust and crumb from the Bosch mixer.

Bob

Offline ponzu

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #103 on: October 23, 2010, 05:43:34 PM »
JT,

Pie one looks like a high temp sub 1.5 minute pie.  Pie 2 looks like a moderate heat 3-4 minute bake.

AZ

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2010, 05:51:02 PM »
they Look very GOOD Chau !! how did they taste ?

for a frozen dough there is allot of spring...

just saw the second picture... thats is really different... same baking time ? and temps ?

Thanks Andre!   Relatively same baking temp and time.  Both were loaded at similar hearth temps but the 1st pie baked around 2.5 m and the 2nd one maybe a little over 3 min.    Also I believe that with the first one I intentionally left the rim a bit bigger and didn't stretch out the overall pie as much.   As a result, the rim expanded more into the dome of the MBE where the heat is hotter. 

Taste was pretty good.  Not bad at all for a CF dough.  :-D  Even with my improved technique and improve heat distribution in the MBE, I still am getting a slightly doughier crumb for cold fermented dough. 

I would love to get that light crumb that I get on a same day dough. 

This dough was made with a small amount of 2 week old cake yeast and then frozen.  Even the same day batch from this dough (reply #96) did not give a good rise on the counter.  Neither did these after thawing.  The ovenpsring is likely due to leaving the dough thick and decent heat distribution in the MBE.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2010, 05:56:36 PM »
In response to how small the amount of dough the Bosch will mix.  I usually mix between 430-1320 grams without a problem.  Yesterday I was doing a test dough that weighed 310 grams.  The machine was worthless as it was spinning  but there was no initial mix of the ingredients.  After trying to combine the ingredients with a spatula and the motor running, I gave up. So I had to knead by hand to bring it all together. I put it back in the bowl and the mixer then could finish the knead.

In a second experiment I made two "identical" doughs, one in the KA spiral and the second in the Bosch. I tried to bake them exactly buy you know how that goes.  All of the blind testers preferred the crust and crumb from the Bosch mixer.

Bob

I agree Bob, the smallest batch I've been able to make is about 400gm.  I tried a 300gm as well but it just got tied up on the center shaft.  I added another 100gm of dough and it started mixing.

I completely understand about the challenge of trying to keep things consistent.   When using different kneading machines or doing it by hand, I use the consistency of the dough to tell me when to stop kneading so I can get the same end result using any machine.  One better than the other?  Not IMHO, but I'm very new at making the crumb I like consistently.  I may change my opinion down the road as I get more practice with the Bosch. 

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2010, 05:58:10 PM »
JT,

Pie one looks like a high temp sub 1.5 minute pie.  Pie 2 looks like a moderate heat 3-4 minute bake.

AZ

You are mostly correct.  2.5 min for the first and ~3.5m for the 2nd.   What I was really wanting to show, is that it's possible to make a pie that "looks" NP using HG bread flour. 

Chau

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2010, 06:04:14 PM »
Here is the 2nd pie and the 2 together.

Chau, is the pink shoe part of the NP secret? Were you wearing the Caputo apron??
Awesome pie buddy.

PAul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2010, 06:14:42 PM »
Chau, is the pink shoe part of the NP secret? Were you wearing the Caputo apron??
Awesome pie buddy.

PAul

I'm glad you caught that Paul. It's for good luck.   :-D  No apron on this one.  Sorry to disappoint.   :-D

I even remember throwing one of those shoes into the living room.  Kids, their stuff is everywhere!  Earlier today I launched a kiddie blanket into the other room.  My wife says, "whats the matter with you?" 
I said, "nothing! Kiddie blankets don't belong in the kitchen".  These kids spread their stuff everywhere! lol

Chau

Offline ponzu

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2010, 06:15:41 PM »
You are mostly correct.  2.5 min for the first and ~3.5m for the 2nd.   What I was really wanting to show, is that it's possible to make a pie that "looks" NP using HG bread flour. 

Chau

I agree with this premise.  The OO flour seems to give the crust a softness in texture, but I haven't noticed that its pies look any more neapolitan than pies made with other flours.  I do think that technique trumps flour selection any day of the week.

I would also venture to guess that due to more crunch with the longer bake, the second pie tasted better than the first, (though the first looks cooler.)  Is this true?

AZ


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2010, 06:27:30 PM »
I agree with this premise.  The OO flour seems to give the crust a softness in texture, but I haven't noticed that its pies look any more neapolitan than pies made with other flours.  I do think that technique trumps flour selection any day of the week.

I would also venture to guess that due to more crunch with the longer bake, the second pie tasted better than the first, (though the first looks cooler.)  Is this true?

AZ

Yes it is true IF that is what you like.  I think you can also find a happy medium b/t look, texture, and taste.  I think most ppl do like a bit of a crunch to the rim.  I don't know that 'true' NP pies are suppose to be soft without any crisp to the rim whatsoever.  I think that is the assumption though.  Im sure it varies from establishment to establishment.   

I myself, do enjoy a bit of a crunch to the rim.   I guess my point, if there is one, is that we can manipulate flour, hydration ratios, kneading times, AND bake time and temp to get just about whatever you want out of a rim (crust/crumb) using whatever flour you have.   I can get a caputo 00 flour to look and taste more like a NY and I can get a HG flour to look and taste more like a NP.  Is it authentic?  Absolutely not.  Do I care?  Albsolutely not.

Does my pie or yours taste that much different than those made with the same ingredients 1/2 a globe away?  I doubt it but that is just my opinion.   :P

Chau

Offline ponzu

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2010, 08:44:35 PM »
Yes it is true IF that is what you like.  I think you can also find a happy medium b/t look, texture, and taste.  I think most ppl do like a bit of a crunch to the rim.  I don't know that 'true' NP pies are suppose to be soft without any crisp to the rim whatsoever.  I think that is the assumption though.  Im sure it varies from establishment to establishment.   

I myself, do enjoy a bit of a crunch to the rim.   I guess my point, if there is one, is that we can manipulate flour, hydration ratios, kneading times, AND bake time and temp to get just about whatever you want out of a rim (crust/crumb) using whatever flour you have.   I can get a caputo 00 flour to look and taste more like a NY and I can get a HG flour to look and taste more like a NP.  Is it authentic?  Absolutely not.  Do I care?  Albsolutely not.

Does my pie or yours taste that much different than those made with the same ingredients 1/2 a globe away?  I doubt it but that is just my opinion.   :P

Chau

JT,

I agree with your philosophy.  The challenge as I see it is obtaining a New York Pie in Neapolitan clothing.  ie A pie that looks like a WFO neapolitan sub minute bake but with the crunchy crust of a NY/ new haven pie.  I haven't achieved it yet, but I have a feeling it is possible.

The first place I would look for such a pie?  either Bianco or varasano's.

We can do it. 

And of course you're right that taste is personal.

AZ


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2010, 08:53:47 PM »
Alexi, to achieve such a pie, I think you would flash cook the pizza for the leoparding look and then pull it away from the fire and let it cook another minute or two with lower heat to let the pie dry out a bit and you'll have it.   

Bianco's pies look NY-elite or more NY to me.  And Varasano's looks very NP, but he just said that he bakes around 3 mins and you can definitely get a bit of a crunch to it with a 3 min pie.   Even in talking about NP pies, there is a variety of looks to the NP pie. 

Can we do it? Hells yeah! >:D  Just need to experiment a little.  I'm almost there.

When I ate at Pomo in Az, they are VPN NP, but yet there was very little leoparding, pies were stretched to 15" instead of 12" to purposefully dry them out and give them a bit of a crunch.  It looked kinda like a NP but was very NY-elitish to me and the pies were baked anywhere from 70 seconds to under 2 mins.  The pizzaiolo told me he does this b/c "Americans" like a crunchy rim.  :-D

When I first ate their pizza, it tasted very NY elitish to me.  I was sure they were blending flours, but later I found out they were just using caputo pizzeria.  I realized then that if you lower the HR, stretch it thinner, you can turn the pie into a NY-ish pie with a sub 2 min bake.  That is the rim is crunchy/crispy. 

I can post some pictures of their pies later if you want to see. 

Chau
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:14:28 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Toperro

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #113 on: October 27, 2010, 05:10:40 PM »
JT
Good job, I'm anxious to see this video about the hand kneading.
My english is from Google Translator, sorry...

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2010, 11:14:52 AM »
Thanks Toperro, I'll try to get to it sooner than later.

For this next experiment, I want to try and create what I call the Masters' dough using the bosch.  What is the Masters' dough?  I referring to a dough quality often seen on the youtube videos of all the NP pros.   A soft, silky, billowy dough what opens easily but yet is strong enough to slide from bench to peel without tearing.  Once on the peel, the edges can be stretched out easily without the dough retracting. 

I have made this quality of dough before using hand kneading/turns (Tartine bread dough method), but was curious to see if it can also be done in the BUP through a bit of experimentation. 

This experiment is 4 fold in nature.
1 - can I create a Masters' dough or something similar in the bosch
2 - to compare the kneading effects of the BUP vs a Cuisinart Food Processor (CPF)
3 - to make a consistent dough using 2 different mixers based on the feel of the dough.
4 - I want to find a useable 12 hour same day formula using the ischia starter. 

The 2nd part or reason for this experiment came from reading this article here posted yesterday.  I wanted to see if I would get similar results. 

Reply #1 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12278.0.html

So I started by making 2 batches of dough using a 60/40 blend of Caputo Pizzeria 00 and HG flour.  I weighed out the water, flour, salt, and 10% (of the flour weight) active ischia starter.   

All ingredients were added to 2 separate bowls and mixed by hand for 1 min to incorporate everything and then added to their respective mixers.  I do this to avoid splashing water and dough bits along the sides of the food pro to keep everything more consistent.

The BUP mixer was started first since I plan on mixer longer in the Bosch or until I get a similar consistency.   I then started the CPF mix shortly after.   I quickly realized that I had forgotten to use cold water for the food processor and stopped it after only 20secs of mixing.   I checked the dough temp and it read 82F.  I quickly put this dough in the freezer to cool it down a bit.  Check the other dough and it was 72F.   

I continue mixing in the bosch for 8-9 min and the fiinish dough temp was 75F.   I then pulled the CFP dough out of the cold and its dough temp read 76F.  I checked it's condition by pulling on it and was satisified that it had been sufficient kneaded at this time and decided not to knead it further.

Upon an initial comparison, the CFP dough was a bit more stiff despite similar finishing dough temps.    After a 5-10min bench rest both felt very similar, with the CFP dough just a tad stronger.

Here are the initial pics post kneading.   Food Processor (CFP) dough 1st, Bosch dough 2nd.
Both batches were 394 gm when loaded into the proofing containers.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 02:37:27 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2010, 11:16:02 AM »
Here's what they look like 6 hours later.  Very little rise and both look to have risen the same amount.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2010, 11:27:16 AM »
Here's what the doughs looked like after 8-9 hours of bulk rising.  The Bosch dough appears to have risen about 10-20% more. 

Both doughs were taken out of their containers after 9 hours of bulk rising.  Weighed, divided, and balled.

The CFP dough came out much easier signifying it had a stronger gluten matrix, but the Bosch dough rose higher.  ???  Both doughs felt very slack and a bit wet and require multiple folds to build their strength back up.  The CFP dough was a bit easier to work with and felt a bit nicer. 

Pic 1 after 8 hours
Pic 2 after 9 hours
Pic 3 the CFP dough after coming out of the container and a mulitple folds
Pic 4 Bosch dough ball in a proofing container on the left. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2010, 02:31:45 PM »
Here is what the dough balls looked like proofed up and ready to be baked.  I'm happy to report that 10% starter in my kitchen is good for a 12 hour ferment.

Bosch dough on the left.  The CFP dough proofed up a little bit more than the bosch dough.  It had more air and strength than the bosch dough.  I later realize this was due more to my handling of the dough.   with the bosch dough I divided it first and after realizing how slack it was added the 2 pieces together and did some stretch and folds.  This action destroyed some of the airbubbles in the dough.

With the CFP dough, I folded and balled the whole thing out of the container first, then divided later and balled individually.  As a result, it held more of it's air. 

Bosch dough on left.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2010, 02:33:50 PM »
The bake off.  The bosch dough was baked first.  it opened up just a bit easier than the CFP.   As a result I stretched it a bit thinner and it didn't have quite as thick of a rim to start with.   

Here is the Bosch pie with buffala mozz. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2010, 02:36:20 PM »
Here is the CPF pie.  The rim was a bit airier.   This one was topped with home made mozz.  Not as good as the buffala.

Both pies tasted great though.

In conclusion, if kneading to a certain consistency, the food processor in general did not produce a significantly better crust. 


 

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