Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 36363 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #140 on: November 25, 2010, 09:18:52 AM »
Chau - You should put together a series of instructional videos. The information here is phenomenal.

John


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2010, 09:55:45 AM »
Chau - You should put together a series of instructional videos. The information here is phenomenal.

John

Thanks John.  I always thought that would be fun.  One of my concerns is that I don't always fully understand all the science that is going on.  Sometimes, I inadvertantly find ways to explain what is going on that may not be 100% scientifically correct.  I would hate to think that I am disseminating false info. 

I could just make videos that say, well this is how I do things or like to do things and leave it at that, BUT there are too many fine points in between that I would be tempted to go into finer detail on.  It's a bit of a mental battle for sometimes.   :-D

I'll consider doing that someday when I really know what I'm doing.  Right now, I'm still in the experimenting and learning mode. 

Chau

Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #142 on: November 25, 2010, 12:24:30 PM »
I love the instructional video idea and Chau, I understand you reluctance based on not knowing everything.

We just need a little disclaimer at the front that says something like "I reserve the right to be wrong/not know everything and I invite others to add their improvements for everyone's benefit".  If you think about it, Wikipedia struggles with that every day because no author is omniscient, yet the content on that site is generally quite good.

Chau, has built a lot of knowledge and could, almost singlehandidly, move the ball down to the 20 yard line (and a little help from your friends could take it the rest of the way).  That isn't to dismiss the amazing knowledge of Pete-zza in all things pie-related, or the LBE enthusiasts, or cracker experts, or deep dish experts.

It just seems that the customer need is real.  Think about it.  Many of us have several days of time accumulated on the forum trying to figure out how to make a particular type of pizza.  There is an amazing amount of knowledge captured in this forum, but it can be hard to find.  Pete-zza does an admirable job of providing search results from past posts, helping the inquirer, and reminding us all that the search feature is your friend.

But some people learn best by reading, others by seeing.  For the visual guys, your video could really help.  If it worked out, I could see a library of videos - how to get started making cracker crust; how to make a deep dish pie; etc.

Dave

Offline carbon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #143 on: November 25, 2010, 12:59:25 PM »
I'm a visualist so I can sure use additional instructional videos.  All the info posted so far has helped me tremendously.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #144 on: November 25, 2010, 09:08:59 PM »
PLEASE Jackie yes videos! No real details needed just the basics, dont go crazy a basic beginners guide with a few of your favorie recipes... that would help maximize the use of this great product so many of us are acquiring!  ;D
John
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2010, 12:24:05 PM »
Thanks guys,  I may consider doing that after I get a WFO.  We will see if I still think I know what I'm doing then.  :-D

I had a few more thoughts I wanted to share.   I'm making a few experimental loaves of bread today and decided to open up the Tartine bread book to study the pictures again and re-read for more insight.

I wanted to point out somethings in the book that confirms what  I was saying in post #134 about hydration ration, gluten developement, and sticking issues.

Hydration:  even though Chad is making bread here, dough is dough.   Chad uses around a ~77% HR (including the leaven) for BF.   That is even higher than what I use for pizza dough if using BF.  I normally might use around 70% or so for BF.   On page 55 he says....

"A well-developed dough is more cohesive and releases from the sides of the bowl when you do the turns."

He is talking about gluten developement here vs the stickiness of the dough.  A well development dough will be tacky and doesn't stick leaving chunks of wet dough sticking to your hands. 

Take a look at the first picture on page 57.  Look at how wet that dough is but yet it pulls cleanly from the container.   And then note, that with a minimal amount of bench flour, and several folds how the dough will hold it's ball shape on page 59.  This folding here is what builds/adds strength to the dough.

Then look at how the dough flattens out on page 60.  Again, shaping is now done to further add strength prior to the proofing stage. 

This is a pretty typically routine for bread making, bulk rise, divide, pre-shaping, shaping, proof. 

If we translate that into pizza dough, what I do is very similar.  I don't do all these steps, but basically you can add the strength needed to the dough with rest periods and folding.    How much folds or strength added to the dough is done by experience and the feeling of the dough.   Just note what you do and the finished baked product and adjust that for next time. 

Anyway, these are just some observations that I've made working with pizza dough over the last year and now seeing it Chad's book.  I am continually learning to find that balance myself. 

Chau

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #146 on: November 26, 2010, 12:46:49 PM »
Chau,

I think you may have seen this before, http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza, but you can see how prolonged kneading of a very high hydration dough, around 95%, can produce a dough that is sticky but still manageable. I would think that kneading a dough close to 100% by hand would not be practical. Have you ever tried anything like that by hand?

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #147 on: November 26, 2010, 01:55:47 PM »
Peter I hadn't seen that before, so thank you for posting that link. 

I have experimented a few times with the ultra wet ciabatta doughs before.  I used this recipe, which is very similar to the one you posted.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread

This was back in the day before I owned a mixer though.  Ciabatta bread seems like a very peculiar dough to me.  I've always wonder if it was discovered either accidentally or just by someone wondering if she could make bread with an ultra hydrated dough.   By hand, I would imagine it to be the toughest bread to make corrrectly requiring a mastery of skill and understanding. 

In a way the holey and very open crumb structure of a ciabatta bread is very similar to the Tartine-esque bread that I am currently trying to achieve. 

Chau
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 03:40:59 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #148 on: November 26, 2010, 02:49:49 PM »
Chau, i have made this ciabatta bread recipe http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7779.msg66792.html#msg66792 and it works good, i also tried it with longer fermentation for focaccia and it work even better !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2010, 04:20:26 PM »
Quote
In a way the holey and very open crumb structure of a ciabatta bread is very similar to the Tartine-esque bread that I am currently trying to achieve.

Chau,

If you haven't achieved the airy crumb characteristics, it could have something to do with the way the dough is handled during the turning stage and later on during the final shaping/folding.

That would be my best bet since we all use the same, well...more or less, hydrations. What kind of flour do you use for the Tartine bread? High gluten or regular BF?
Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #150 on: November 26, 2010, 05:03:37 PM »
Chau,

If you haven't achieved the airy crumb characteristics, it could have something to do with the way the dough is handled during the turning stage and later on during the final shaping/folding.

That would be my best bet since we all use the same, well...more or less, hydrations. What kind of flour do you use for the Tartine bread? High gluten or regular BF?


Mike, I'm have made the bread with 00, AP, BF, and HG flour.   I can get an airy crumb that pretty much looks like everyone else's bread here.  I'm wanting a loaf with the real LARGE holes like Chad's bread in the video or holes like a ciabatta bread.    I've posted most of my bread efforts here.  Reply #23,53,59,60

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12140.60.html

You are absolutely on the $ Mike.  I had thought of that today so instead of bulk rising in a tall container as Chad recommends, I'm turning todays loaves in a regular bowl.  I think I am somehow degassing the dough during the turns or in the later stages.  Not only that but I think I am not proofing them up enough. 

Chau
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 05:31:44 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Reggiano

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #151 on: December 03, 2010, 07:58:14 PM »
Chau, Thank you for being the final link in the chain, that prompted me to SEMI retire my Kitchen Aid Pro 600. I have been putting exceeding demands on my Old Unit, only to have lack luster performance at best. Why Stir, when one can Mix!  I usually mix up a 3 Ball batch of roughly 27 ounces, give or take for a 18 inch screen.
 The final straw came when i lowered the Hydration to 57 percent, only to smell the KA overheating. I have been putting the Bosch Universal through it's pace's, for the last Two day's, and could not be any happier. What a Great machine! To all of you,,, you bring great enjoyment to my viewing pleasure, and my Pizza's are None the Worst for Wear, thanks to all of the members knowledge' that contribute here!  Merry Christmas to all of you.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #152 on: December 04, 2010, 09:25:44 PM »
You're welcome Reggiano, I'm glad I was of some help to you.


My time experimenting with the Bosch mixer maybe very short lived.   After reading Chad Robertson's Tartine Bread book, I have been able to further my understanding and hand techniques in dough making.  At present, I can make (IMO) great dough for bread and pizza by hand with minimal effort.   At the time of purchase of the bosch, I was not confident in my own techniques and I always had that nagging uncertainy that perhaps a mixer, especially a good one could improve my dough.  I just didn't know.   And besides, all the experienced folks had mixers so maybe I should as well.  Today I can say with full confidence that absolutely no mixer is required to make great dough provided the operator understands what he/she is doing.   The truth of the matter is that great dough (the masters' dough) can be made easily by hand with very minimal effort.  Now I understand how guys like Bianco can make dough by hand or by just using the mixer to do the initial mixing of ingredients. 

It's almost a chore for me to pull the bosch out and clean it afterwards.  If I do use it for dough now, which is rare it is really only used to do the initial mixing of 1-2 min and that's if I'm making a large batch and to save a bit of time.   

I usually don't make big batches of dough, except for the occasional pizza party.   For big batches of dough, I would personally use the bosch and highly recommend it or any other mixer.  At one point in time, I thought perhaps I would use the bosch mixer to mix up a big batch of dough and freeze leftover dough for future use.   I now prefer to make dough fresh, so that requirement for a mixer is no longer justified. 

It is a good mixer and I will likely keep it for mixing up cake & cookie batter or the occassional whipping of cream or eggs. 

Cheers all,
Chau

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #153 on: December 04, 2010, 10:02:22 PM »
Theres no doubt that someone can make a great dough with their god given mixers. I think the main reason for having a mixer is for convenience. I know Chau doesn't make big batch's so he might find making dough by hand easier. Me on the other hand I don't think I have made a batch that has used less than 1700g of flour. I have been making dough by hand lately just so I don't lose the touch and I do notice a difference in the quality but I know why I got a mixer in the first place. The added benefit of a mixer is like Chau said in the first couple minutes when incorporating all the ingredients. Sometimes I feel when mixing by hand I don't get the ingredients incorporated well. Anyways good thing we have Chau here with all his experiments, I'm guessing your job has something to do with the reason why you do all the experiments you do. Great stuff.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #154 on: December 04, 2010, 10:51:43 PM »
Thanks David, you hit on 2 really important points about my post.   First, I consider getting an even dough mixture/consistency the foremost important part of mixing dough whether it is done by hand or machine and this occurs in the first few minutes.   

The limitations/challenges of mixing dough by hand and getting an even consistency lies in low hydration doughs and/or big batches.  For my high hydration doughs and small batch sizes 400-800gm, mixing dough by hand is effortless.  Outside of that, a mixer definitely has it's advantages in making life easier.  However in my sitiuation and at this point in time, the quality of dough I can make by hand or machine is nearly identical. 

To get an even mixture by hand one can use a similar method pictured in the tartine book.   Add water and other ingredients into the mixing bowl, add all of flour and squeeze the dough between the fingers until an even mixer is achieved.  Again, of course this is easier done with a high hydration dough.  For pizza or bread, my mixing is about 75% done at this point.  Only several more folds are required to build additional strength into the dough and I'm done.

The 2nd method and the one I use most often is to add about 50% of the flour to the water salt & yeast mixture and stir with a fork briskly to get an even batter.  I will tilt the bowl on it's side a bit and run the edge of the fork back and forth briskly against the wall of the bowl to break up clumps and achieve that even mixture fairly quickly.  Then add another 25% of the flour and repeat. For this stage I will run the fork in a looping motion diving into the center of the wet dough, pulling the fork up high (this exposes more wet surface area), make a clockwise or counterclockwise motion, and repeat to get an even mixture.  This is done for about 30s or so.   After this, I usually dump the wet thickened mass on the bench and dump the remaining 25% of flour over it and dive in with both hands.   I spend about a minute squeezing the wet dough and dry flour between both hands pushing dough out between my fingers until all the flour is incorporated and I have an even mixed dough. 

This entire process takes me about 3mins to do and I get a pretty even and consistent mixture.  At this point the dough does still look rough but after a few folds, a long bulk rise, balling, and a long proof the dough is as soft and silky as is made in the mixer. 

My work does require the tailoring of techniques to different situations, constant monitoring & awareness, critical judgement & decisions, and adjustments & corrections at a moments notice.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 09:45:14 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #155 on: December 05, 2010, 02:42:09 PM »
Another fine post Chau.  Thx.  I'll have to give that hand mix a try.
Dave

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2010, 09:54:15 PM »
This thread has me thinking a lot tonight....there was a very funny cartoon picture we used to have posted on a wall in the shop, when I worked in the service department years ago at the Car Dealership.

I tried to find something like it online but haven't been able to.It reminds me very much of pizza making,from the beginning to the very end of advancement of what can be achieved by mixing by hand,
in a bowl first as you first start out and learn,moving onto bigger and better mixers and equipment over time,and in the end,when you mastered it all,you're able to do it just as good or better,in the bowl by simple hand mixing.
 :-D

In the cartoon,

(for another idea,picture as you read along,a beginning pizza maker,wearing a dirty,floured up old apron, in his kitchen at home,using a old oven,having nothing more but a large used bowl,wooden spoon,and cheap baking stone he found at a yard sale,and gets better with time,buying more expensive mixers,ovens and equipment as he gets better)
 :chef:

The first pic is of a young,Beginner Auto Mechanic,with a very simple,small,banged up tool box containing all the tools he could managed to scrape together or afford to at least be able to work.The box looks very old and used,like it was handed down or what he may have found at a yard sale.Has some old,used power tools that still work.He is also wearing dirty old work clothes.

The 2nd pic,shows the same mechanic,Intermediate Novice/Skilled now,aged a little bit,has a newer,somewhat larger nicer,tool box,a new small air compressor next to it,some newer power tools,and he has a better looking uniform on to work with.

The 3rd picture shows the same mechanic,now a bit older,Advanced skilled,has a Super HUGE shiny,fancy expensive,tool box,New,Huge air compressor,shiny power tools everywhere,and a brand new uniform without a crease in the folds!Everything looks polished,shiny,and gleaming!

The 4th and last pic,is the same pic from the very beginning.Mechanic is now a skilled Pro or a Master tech!

He looks much older,but now using the same small,old beat up tool box as the beginning,containing only the necessary tools he now needs and nothing extra.Now wearing old dirty clothes because they are more comfortable.Same old tools from the past as well.He sold off all his un-needed but very expensive equipment he never uses anymore,because He does not need them anymore.He learned enough,he is now able to do all the work with his most basic tools he started with,in the beginning.

 ;D
-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #157 on: December 05, 2010, 10:19:31 PM »
That is an excellent analogy Bill.   Being a nurse anesthetist, I'm also reminded of the days when I worked as an EMT in the ER.  I would carry everything in my paramilitary pants.  I wanted to look cool with all the tools hanging out: sheers, tape, tourniquet, pens, markers, protective glasses, gloves, pocket knife, stethoscope, and a whole lot of other BS (no offense to any newbie medical ppl out there). 

Now, I take care of ppl that are on the verge of death sometimes, with just a pen, a pager, and a cell phone in my pocket.   I know where to find all the other stuff that I need.  And if I can't, I send others to get what I need.   :-D

Another funny story a buddy of mine from Georgia told me years ago.  His grandfather grew up during the depression and that made such an impact on his life he lived frugally the rest of his life.  He said his grandfather owned so much land and was so filthy rich but he never lived like he was.   At 70 something years of age, he still used a plain ol' rope to tie his pants.  he didn't even own a belt.   And when they went hunting, he only brought 1 bullet with him.   While others came by empty handed, my friend told me his grandpa always brought something back after a hunt. 

I'm not saying the mixers and fancy ovens aren't needed.  Hell we live in a world of excess and those things are definitely nice to have.   It's just easy to lose sight of what we really need and don't need.  If we are willing to work hard, I think we can come to realize we don't need half of the stuff we want and come to appreciate the other half we do have. 

About the mixing of dough.  When I first started, I looked closely at so many different recipes and techniques.  Most stating knead and mix times of 10-20mins.   I'm telling you now that it's just not necessary.   Tailor your mixing to your flour and hydration ratio.   Using HG flour and a fairly high hydration, I mix 3-4 minutes max.  I do later incorporate some folds as shown in the videos I posted earlier in this thread.  And again, that's high hydration and hand mixing.  If you are using a mixer and a lower hydration ratio, that time is decreased.   If using a lower protein flour then up the mixing by a few minutes.  The long rest times and a few folds here and there will make up the rest. 

Chau

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2010, 10:37:53 PM »
Chau,
I enjoyed reading those stories you posted!I have family and friends in the medical field,I can imagine,it wasn't easy at first!
 :)

Glad you liked the story I posted as well.Im not there yet,and still want to get myself a mixer and better equipment myself,yet I do know,in time,when I get better at this,I may find I might not need some of the things I might buy.
 :-D

Thats ok..its a learning quest,and have to get there in small steps.As you and others did...alot of you have Graduated with trial and error.Im hoping I get there someday.Without you for advise and the others,I would still be repeating the same old garbage thats passed around online like it is gospel.

I also wanted to express many thanks for helping me through emails with my questions I had,same as the others online here that have helped as well.I am getting better all the time and it feels good.I do not feel stuck somewhere anymore,as I did in the beginning.Im sure I will have more questions later,but as of now,I look forward to learning more,helping others and enjoying our passion of making pizza and breads!
 :)




-Bill

Offline DonC

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #159 on: December 17, 2010, 07:57:20 AM »
My wife and I bought a Bosch U+ for our anniversary this fall after our KA 325watt died after only using it for Christmas cookies and a batch of pizza dough every month or two for about 5 yrs.We love our BUP just as we love our Bosch dishwasher,washer/dryer and battery drill LOL. This thread has been very interesting to read,thanks!!!.
On the kneading by hand,I'd just add that as someone who went to work as a union laborer the day I turned 18 in 1973 and is now an industrial/commercial electrician a lifetime of heavy labor has left me with many aches and pains and although I can still knead by hand,my shoulders,wrists,etc. are worn out and as I age I become more aware of the benefits of not overdoing it.My wife as a secretary has struggled with carpel-tunnel pain and is already at the stage of not being able to physically knead.
 I've been making bread or pizza a couple times a week since we got our Bosch and I'd say the same as most here,the only drawback IMHO is it doesn't mix small batches of dough very well.