Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 37776 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2010, 11:29:21 AM »
JT,

It is ON!  That is too cool that you started with a micro batch and 20 minutes of mixing.  You should be able to fashion your dough into a bullet proof vest with that degree of gluten development. 

And to think that Scott R advised that 7 minutes is likely better than 8 minutes for my 2000+ g batch!

I like the approach,  start with extremes and work towards moderation.  It is a very efficient way to find the sweet spot.  I use similar techniques when mapping arrythmia.

Really excited to see the fruits of you labor.

AZ

Ponzu, I thought it would be interesting to note that the pie I baked at Bill's is this same dough.  See reply #3
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11981.0.html

It was a tad on the chewy side but not bad at all.  I agree with Scott r that I will likely decrease my knead time by 1/2 base on Test #3.  I just wanted to say that the extra kneading didn't seem to hurt the dough that much.  The pie was truely good and one of my better ones.

Chau


Offline JConk007

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2010, 04:23:46 PM »
compl3x,
Better just set the presses and keep the mold,  I will call Bosch and get in on this too.  ;) Too good of a machine for a plastic Gizmo. SS all the way. 
JOhn
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2010, 11:55:09 AM »
Decided to take a crack at the New Haven style pizza inspired by Scott r's post here.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11900.0.html

I opted to use a different recipe and method to fit my needs.  I was wanting to make a loaf of bread and wanted to play with blending AP/HG flour so I decided on a NY style recipe with this blend of flours.

Here's the recipe I used for anyone interested.  This was to be an emergency dough and I only had about a 4 hour window to make bread and pizza.   If anyone is interested in using this recipe but would rather have a longer fermentation time, then simply reduce the amount of yeast accordingly.

Flour blend 100% (2/3 AP, 1/3 HG)
Water   63%
IDY  1%
Salt 2%
Sugar 1%
oil  2%

For my particular climate I upped the hydration a bit (from Scott's 59%) despite using 2/3 AP flour.  I felt the dough to be a bit on the dry side.  Next time I will up the HR a bit more. 

I ended up mixing this for about 12 min which is longer than I wanted but was trying to fix a problem that I had created.  I had taken too long to manually incorporate some of the drier dough from the sides of the bowl which I attempted to mix in later at higher speeds without success.  As a result the dough got mixed longer than I had intended and still had a few dry bits in it. 

Next time, I will only add about 50% of the flour or just enough to create a loose batter and then add the rest in incrementally. 

Anyways the pizza came out excellent.  One of the better pies I've made in the home oven.  I would have to attribute this to the bosch mixer, and the sauce I made.

The sauce:  I tried to recreate grimaldi's sauce by taste.  I have no idea how close or far I was, but this was an excellent NY style sauce. 

Cheese blend:  Sams's shredded whole milk mozz and farmer's brothers fresh soft mozz.

Pepperoni: Boar's head Pepperoni.

Crust: crunchy outside, soft and chewy in the middle.  Actually reminded me a lot of the Grimald's crust i ate recently in AZ.

Next time, I'll leave a bit thicker of a crust and up the hydration.  It was a bit on the dry side for me, but I'm just being picky.  The pie was really good though. 

« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 01:20:18 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2010, 12:45:44 PM »
Great Looking pie JT.

I really like the even browning of the rim and the crumb looks just about perfect.

A couple of questions.

What was your oven setup, bake time and stone temp?

Are you adding water first to the bosch as opposed to flour first?  I think adding flour first was the reason for my initial lack of success with the throw it all in and blend method.  It seems to matter in this machine for some reason.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2010, 01:01:31 PM »
Ponzu,  I think you are right.  The water has to go in first for best results.  Also,  that even browning you see on JT nice looking NH pie is probably the result of the oil,  and or sugar.  Pie looks great JT.  -marc

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2010, 01:05:06 PM »
Thanks Alexi.

Oven setup:  Viking Oven that seems to only heat from the top broiler plate (i know it's weird).   Primo ceramic stone mid oven.  Preheat for 40min or so at 500F or until a stone temp of 700F.  Loaded pie and baked around 6min turning the pie 2-3 times.   After 6min or so, the top and sides of the rim were brown but hadn't developed that charred look so I rimmed it against the broiler.  Turned the broiler on so it's actively firing.  

Alexi, I always add water first whether mixing with bosch or by hand.  Water, dissolve salt & sugar.  Next add the oil and yeast, then flour.  To get an even mixing whether by hand or mixer, when working with relatively low hydrated doughs, I feel it's important to add 50% or less of the flour initially to get an even batter and then add the rest of the flour in at once or slowly.  This seems (to me) to be a requisite if using a relative low hydration ratio.  At higher hydration ratios,  I can dump everything in and turn the mixer on and will get a smooth mix regardless.  With a lower hydration dough care has to be taken to get an even initial wet batter otherwise I run the risk of getting clumps if I dump it all in at once.  The reason for this is b/c when mixing in the Bosch, if you'll not that there is usually a bit of dough that is not being mixed along the center shaft, stuck to the mixing arms or along the walls of the bowl.  With a drier dough, there seems to be more residual dough hanging around.  If too much flour is added at once, there seems to be dry bits that don't incorporate well especially after a few minutes of mixing when the gluten is already beginning to develop.  A possible work around is to mix initially on high speeds to incoporate everything well, let the dough rest, then go back and knead at a slower speed.  This is how I did things by hand so it should be the same for using a mixer.  Hope that makes sense.  This may vary from mixer to mixer, user to user, and with varying hydration levels.   This is just what I have found to be true for me.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 04:45:35 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »
Thank you Marc for the compliment.  Yes the darkness I believe is from the sugar and the even browning is from the oil.   

This was a last minute throw things together type recipe.  I was trying to find a recipe to balance making NY pizza and a loaf of french bread with.  The bread came out excellent using  the same recipe.  I posted about the bread here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12022.0.html

Offline scott r

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2010, 01:34:02 PM »
thats a really good looking NY pie!   I love the look that the sugar gives the dough.   Well done!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2010, 06:31:53 PM »
thats a really good looking NY pie!   I love the look that the sugar gives the dough.   Well done!

Thank you Sir.

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2010, 07:47:10 PM »

Chau

We need an update on Bonnie
How about some pictures.
Has she grown?
Is she homesick?  It's a long way from Slovenia.

Bob


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2010, 10:06:51 PM »
Bobino, Bonnie has been doing very well considering the quick transition.  I've been keeping her fairly busy mixing and kneading.  Just the other day she helped me make some wonderful bread and pizza. 

I'm also adjusting to her special needs as well.  Just the other day, I put her mixing attachment into the dishwasher.  The center portion of her mixing arms became very discolored  :'(.  After consulting the parenting manual it does clearly state that the mixing mechanism needs to be hand washed.   Her little mixing arms also got a few nicks on them from being in the dishing washer.  Apparently I need to take better care of her.   

Uncle Jon (member C0mpl3x) is making her a little SS toy (dough creeper gizmo) to play with.  I'm sure she'll be really happy with it when it arrives. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2010, 11:33:56 AM »
Window Paning Experiment with a hand kneaded dough

Not long ago, member Scott r posted a pretty cool video of pizza dough he mixed up in his Bosch mixer.   The dough looked great and displayed some awesome windowpaning ability.  Scott's video here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11900.0.html

I wanted to see if I could reproduce this type of window paning by hand kneading.  I have window paned one of my own hand kneaded doughs ages ago but haven't really documented if the dough would windowpane after 20 min and what the dough would look like after 50 min. 

hand kneaded dough that was window paned for an ultra thin pizza experiment.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.20.html

Here's 2 videos I made today of a HG bromated flour dough.  Hand mixed and kneaded for about 6-7min.  Window paned after a 20m & 50m rest.




Some thoughts:  The bosch can definitely mix a smoother dough than I can by hand.  It's great for doing large batches of dough, saves time and energy.   Is a mixer absolutely necessary?  NO - you can make great pizza dough by hand.  This same effect can be done with any other mechanical mixer.  Do I love my new Bosch?  You betcha.  For someone doing small batches, I would just stick to hand kneading. 

Ok here are the same doughballs proofed up after 7 hours and ready to be baked.

Pictures of the pies made from this dough posted here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12032.0.html
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 10:46:34 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline scott r

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2010, 11:58:25 AM »
Jackie, what do you consider a small batch?   I think my bosch still beats out my hand kneading with small batches, but I may just suck at hand kneading :'(
Maybe you are talking really small.   Because I always have hungry people around the smallest batch I would ever do would be 2 16 inch pizzas or 4 300g neapolitan pies.   how many a/b comparisons have you done to come to this conclusion?   

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2010, 12:13:38 PM »
Hey Scott, I agree with you.  The Bosch can still beat out my hand kneaded doughs in terms of smoothness even in small batches.  Especially with a lower protein flour like AP or 00, it can develop the gluten much quicker than I can by hand.

I guess I would consider a small batch maybe just enough dough to make a 16" pie or 2 small 12" pies.   This particular batch is about 370gm.   I have found that my bosch won't mix a batch smaller than 400gm.  For anything bigger than that or using a low protein flour (00) I would happily use a mixer.  I do these small batches (<400gm) and make two 11" pies when just making experimental pizza for myself.

I haven't done a lot of a/b comparisons, just saying that it is possible to hand knead a dough and achieve windowing paning in 20min.   Again, I love my Bosch, I just don't want people to think that they absolutely need a Bosch to get window paning.  It can be done by hand kneading.   I have also achieved this effect with use of a food processor and a Kitchen Aid mixer.  Anyone should also be able to easily achieve this effect with any mixer. 

If there is enough interest, I would consider shooting a video of the hand kneading technique I used to achieve this.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 12:23:43 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline scott r

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2010, 12:19:37 PM »
ok, im with you.   I have never even tried to make a one pizza batch!   

Offline carbon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2010, 12:23:37 PM »
Jackie, your hand kneaded dough looks great!  I don't think I've ever gotten mine that supple with that degree of window paning.  
Also, your Bosch mixed pies are really looking good.
I don't know what's considered a large batch but since building my wfo I find myself baking at least 4 pies (250-300g balls) each time I fire her up.  I can definitely see a mixer making things a lot easier for me and one less variable to deal with.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2010, 12:31:55 PM »
Hey we all agree! Yes!! :-D  The only reason I make these tiny batches is b/c my wife is on some special dieting program (shhh!!!) getting ready for a cruise in a few months.  She told me she can't eat pizza 3 times a week!  :o

Since I like to experiment and make pizza sometimes 2-4 times a week, I have to make tiny pies otherwise I end up throwing out leftovers and I hate being wasteful.

I would say the Bosch kneads dough better than I do at this point.  My hand kneading technique has not advance beyond that of a mixer.

My only interest in posting this is to show those folks feeling left out of the Bosch club that they can make good dough with their own mixers, maybe with just switching up their routine.  Also with some practice and maybe a proper kneading technique, one can still make decent pizza dough by hand.   My goal has always been to simplify the process of pizza making.  Sure I can't make the very best pizzas I potentially can without a mixer & WFO, but I can still make a pretty dang good pizza that would pass the taste test for most folks who neither know or care about the very best. 

Chau
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 02:11:27 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2010, 12:44:50 PM »
Hey we all agree! Yes!! :-D  The only reason I make these tiny batches is b/c my wife is on some special dieting program (shhh!!!) getting ready for a cruise in a few months.

It's going to be funny seeing you try and make a pizza on the cruise over the exhaust stack while your wife is taking a picture. :-D

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2010, 08:03:17 PM »
It's going to be funny seeing you try and make a pizza on the cruise over the exhaust stack while your wife is taking a picture. :-D

The only problem I can see is how do I sneak a couple of peels onto the cruise without attracting unwanted attention?  ;)

Maybe if I wore this and pretended to be one of the chefs... ???



Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2010, 10:29:17 PM »
Bosch Dough Creep Gizmo: $2.00
Bosch Small Batch Kneading Attachment:$5.99
Bosch Universal Plus: $359
Seeing Chau dressed as a pizzaiolo...priceless. :-D