Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 43964 times)

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Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2010, 07:37:34 PM »

Chau

Does this mean Bonnie is up for adoption?

Bob


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2010, 08:30:34 PM »
Chau

Does this mean Bonnie is up for adoption?

Bob

Absolutely not.  I'm glad I don't have to get a spiral mixer like I thought I was going to do a few days ago.  Bonnie is much easier to clean than the Food Pro.  B/c the Food pro mixes so quickly there is less room for error and the amount of kneadin is harder to control.  As it is,  I still appreciate knowing how to make good dough using different mixers. 

Also Bonnie will do other things that the food pro won't, so she's a keeper....for now.  :-D


Offline Ev

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2010, 10:13:12 AM »
Ok, I couldn't wait any more. I just ordered my BUP.
Now what the hell am I 'sposed to do for the next week?!  >:D :-D

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #128 on: November 17, 2010, 10:27:40 AM »
Ok, I couldn't wait any more. I just ordered my BUP.
Now what the hell am I 'sposed to do for the next week?!  >:D :-D

Use the food processor.  :-D

Offline JConk007

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #129 on: November 17, 2010, 09:16:49 PM »
Or your 2 god given Hand mixers . ;)
KNow the Dough!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2010, 09:31:17 PM »
the more I see the BUP, the more I am tempted to order it up...maybe I can ask the wife if she will get it for me for Christmas??  That way, she is the one buying it and I dont have to reason for it?!?! 

Offline Ev

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #131 on: November 18, 2010, 09:02:04 AM »
Or your 2 god given Hand mixers . ;)
KNow the Dough!
John


Yeah, I KNow alright. I've made plenty of dough by hand, but lately I've been having arthritis flare-ups in my hands and wrists. :'( Making pizza shouldn't have to hurt. So I'll try the mixer, and if it improves my dough, well then, so much the better. :chef:

Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #132 on: November 20, 2010, 03:56:26 PM »
Chau,
I've got to give you credit for some of the most amazing crumb shots I've seen.

I decided to copy your formula to see if it worked in Tampa.  I was told my another forum member (Bob, you know who you are), and my wife (refuses to hang out here) that 70% hydration is crazy - hard to handle, slack dough, just a mess.  Still, I was persisted because I've seen your pictures.  The result was ... a really great crumb structure, even here in Tampa, even with a pinch of molassas added.

I did have to use more bench flour than usual when balling the dough to keep it from sticking to my hands, and flour again when stretching and placing on the peel.

So it was all good except that I didn't like the white underside of the crust as I pulled it from the oven.  Do you have any tricks to minimize that?  I use a combination of flour on the skin to minimize stickyness and corn meal sprinkled over the peel.  Any suggestions?

Dave

Offline JConk007

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #133 on: November 20, 2010, 07:47:06 PM »
DAVE Wood or Metal peel
John?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #134 on: November 20, 2010, 10:15:51 PM »
Chau,
I've got to give you credit for some of the most amazing crumb shots I've seen.

I decided to copy your formula to see if it worked in Tampa.  I was told my another forum member (Bob, you know who you are), and my wife (refuses to hang out here) that 70% hydration is crazy - hard to handle, slack dough, just a mess.  Still, I was persisted because I've seen your pictures.  The result was ... a really great crumb structure, even here in Tampa, even with a pinch of molassas added.

I did have to use more bench flour than usual when balling the dough to keep it from sticking to my hands, and flour again when stretching and placing on the peel.

So it was all good except that I didn't like the white underside of the crust as I pulled it from the oven.  Do you have any tricks to minimize that?  I use a combination of flour on the skin to minimize stickyness and corn meal sprinkled over the peel.  Any suggestions?

Dave

Dave thank you so much for the feedback.  It pleases me greatly to hear that I was able to help in someway.  I'm extremely please that you have been persistant and able to see the benefits of a higher hydration dough on your crumb.  I can tell you now that you are very close to achieving a great crust.  Hopefully I can help you dial it in further. 

First, I want to make a few comments about high hydration doughs.  They have only one purpose for me and that is to create a bigger oven spring provided that you are baking with high enough heat.   The 2 drawbacks to a higher hydrated dough is that it's tricky (at first) to work with them until you get use to it and that you MUST bake them longer.  They don't work with a short bake b/c it leaves too much residual moisture causing the crust to go soft after resting a bit.  For my taste (and most members I've talk to) the ideal crust and crumb is slightly crispy on the outside while the crumb is airy, light, and moist.   These 2 ideals of crust and crumb are a bit of a contradiction in character if you think about it.   Too high a hydration rate relative to the flour used and too short of a bake time and the moisture is not bake off leaving a soft crust and sometimes unbaked crumb that becomes chewier as it sits.   So an ideal bake time for a higly hydrated dough should be in the 3-4min realm.  Adjust your baking temps to achieve this time.   So with some tinkering we can actually find a happy medium or balance to these 2 ideals.

So high hydration doughs definitely has it's limitations.  The goal here is NOT to see who can make the highest hydration dough possible.  My use of hydration is dependant on 1) my dry and hot climate that  I live in and 2) by the strength of flour or blend of flours that I am using that day. 

When using Caputo 00 flour I tend to go about 65-66%, AP = ~68%, BF ~69-70%, and HG 70-73%.  If I was living in a humid environment such as yourself where my flour isn't as dry as it is now, I would likely decrease each of these by 2%.  This is purely a guestimate as I have not made dough in a humid climate. 

So for anyone wanting to do what I do, adjust your HR accordingly to your local climate and the type of flour you are using. 

The reason I list a range of HRs for a particular type of flour is that there is NO magic # here.  It's done by feel.  I always try to get the same consistent feel in the dough regardless of the type of flour or blend of flours used.  This way  I get consistent results each time whether using caputo 00 or HG flour. 

Dave, I'm going to answer your question in a minute but thought I would explain in detail so that you can have a better understanding of how and why  I do things a certain way. 

I usually bulk ferment to double, then divide and ball and proof to almost double again.  After the bulk ferment is a really important time for me.  When I pull the dough out of the container, this is where I will do several folds depending on how the dough feels.  At this point after the bulk rise, the dough should easily windowpane, signifying that it has good strength.  If it feels wet and sticky, I'll do more folds (without adding more flour) to build strength into the dough and this makes it less sticky.   This is where if I ball up the dough, the dough should have enough strength to hold it's shape.  This is where I look for a satiny and smooth finish.

The majority of the gluten should have been already developed during the kneading of the dough.  I also add folds after the kneading if the dough needs it.  This is usually what is meant when a member says I finish the dough by hand after kneading with a mixer.  Basically I am looking for the dough to hold it's shape well.  Look in your Tartine book on the bottom of page 59.  Something like that.  I am NOT looking for the dough to window pane at this point.  Even if the dough is a bit rough looking and not smooth like Chads, I'm not worried about that. 
Why? B/c I'll build more strength into the dough later AFTER the bulk rise and during balling if it needs it.

After the bulk to double, I do additional folds if the dough needs it, and then it's time to divide and ball.  Even during the balling stage, I will add in more folds if the dough needs it.  Basically enough so that the dough will hold it's ball shape, have a smooth finish, is tacky BUT NOT too sticky.   During this phase, you can add a bit of bench flour to the doughballs but it should take very little and not be sticky.  If it's sticky, then continue doing folds to the dough until it is not.  If you feel like it, then let the dough rest 5-10m and then repeat with a few folds.  You should note an immediate improvement in the strength of the dough and a decrease in the stickiness.  But I rarely need to do any additional rest periods at this point b/c I will have already built enough strength into the dough during the kneading, folds after kneading, bulk rise, and folds after dividing and balling.   

Sorry if this sounds confusing, but this should help further explain.  So really how much folding am I doing anyway?  Well enough so that when the balls proof up, they should flatten out a bit but not too much.  Look on page 60 at the first picture.  That dough has rested about 20 min and flatten out.  Well my proof dough will flatten out a little less than that if proofing on a flat surface.  I usually proof in bowls or plastic containers so I can't really see them flattening out but I did proof dough on plates and in pyrex dishes for awhile to observe the effect.

This is really important how much they flatten out during proofing.   Why you ask?  Because this tells me how much strength is in the dough.  If a dough doesn't flatten out at all then obviously there is too much gluten built into the dough.  If it flattens out too much then there is not enought gluten built into the dough.

The FOCUS is not how high a hydration you are using and how difficult it is to work with.  The focus should be how much gluten have you developed into the dough regardless of the hydration.  When there is sufficient gluten built into the dough, even highly hydrated doughs aren't real sticky and are not that difficult to work with.  If the dough is sticky, then it will also be too slack, and as Bob puts it "crazy -slack dough, hard to handle, and just a mess."
If your dough is such and requires a lot of bench flour during the balling stage, then you haven't built enough strength into the dough.  When I work with my dough during the balling stage, I will use a very minimal amount of bench flour and sometimes none at all here.  The dough should be tacky but not too sticky.  A little sticky is okay.  A little bench flour here is okay too. 

After they proof up and before I stretch the dough, YES I will use a normal amount of bench flour but no more than anyone else.  The amount of bench flour I use here is not really dependant on my hydration ratio whatsoever b/c I have enough gluten built into the dough. 

So when the balls proof up they should flatten a bit (if free standing) but not too much.  If they flatten out too much and are too slack and too hard to handle, then you need to up your kneading times or add in more folds before the bulk and or after the bulk and or during balling.   You typically don't want to reball after a dough has proofed.  If you have to then you have to wait 40m or so until the dough has relaxed again and this might put you into overfermentation.  It's better to adjust your gluten development on the next batch, so keep good notes. 

When I open a dough I usually liberally coat the dough in bench flour and shake off the excess.  This is the only bench flour that is require to open up a highly hydrated dough.  Nothing more than what is seen in the multitude of youtube videos showing professionals opening up dough.  This highly hydrated dough should open easily and have a little retraction on the peel.  If the dough retracts too much on the peel, then this is a sign of overgluten developement.  If there is NO retraction, then this is either undergluten developement or the dough is overblown (overfermented).  I use only a small amount of AP flour to flour my wooden peel.  The skin goes on, sauce, cheese, a quick picture and into the oven.  I don't have the skin sitting on the peel for a long time.  Less than a minute for sure, maybe 30-45s.  I don't have any issues with the dough sticking either.  Very very rarely. 

Okay to finally answer your question.....the white underside is likely due to excess bench flour 2nd to not enough gluten developed into the dough.  Keep practicing you are almost there buddy.


Chau
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 10:37:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2010, 03:10:43 PM »
Thanks Chau.  I'll need to read this about a dozen times to "get it" and play with the dough at various stages.  Your post is very detailed and complete - I really appreciate the helpfulness.
Dave

Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #136 on: November 24, 2010, 01:10:05 PM »
Chau,

I thought you would like to read a quip from a guy who knows over 414 wrong ways to make a pizza.  Bob's quip: "That hydration post by Jackie Tran should be mandatory reading for everyone on the forum."

That makes at least two people who really appreciate all you contribute to this forum.

Dave

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #137 on: November 24, 2010, 01:54:10 PM »
Make it three people!  Great info above Chau..thanks for putting it together

Offline Jeep Pizza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #138 on: November 24, 2010, 09:37:57 PM »
Make it four people, I presently have a 67% hydration batch proofing in the fridge using BF  based on info that I have gotten from Chau's posts on high hydration doughs and taking into consideration the humidity levels in NC to make minor adjustments, also based on Chau's postings. Many thanks for the info shared here with all of us.
Time is money, money is power, power is pizza and pizza is knowledge.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #139 on: November 24, 2010, 09:55:09 PM »
Thanks for the feedback guys, I REALLY appreciate it a lot.  It makes the effort worthwhile.   :D

If anyone wants to try upping his/her hydration ratio to see what difference it makes to the crumb structure, then just up it about 2% at a time each bake until you get what you like.  Remember the more you up the hydration though, you'll have to add in a few extra folds and maybe bake just a little longer.  At some point, the hydration will be too high and then it just defeats the purpose. 

I think of it as 2 extremes.  On the one extreme end you have a dry, dense, tight cell structure dough (maybe like a cracker crust).  On the other extreme end you'll have something that is very aerated, lofty, wet crumb structure, and soft (maybe like a NP pie).  You can manipulate different things like hydration, gluten strength, degree of fermentation, using oil or not, to get any type of crumb and crust that exist between the 2 polar opposites.

Happy pizza making!

Chau
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 09:49:14 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #140 on: November 25, 2010, 09:18:52 AM »
Chau - You should put together a series of instructional videos. The information here is phenomenal.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2010, 09:55:45 AM »
Chau - You should put together a series of instructional videos. The information here is phenomenal.

John

Thanks John.  I always thought that would be fun.  One of my concerns is that I don't always fully understand all the science that is going on.  Sometimes, I inadvertantly find ways to explain what is going on that may not be 100% scientifically correct.  I would hate to think that I am disseminating false info. 

I could just make videos that say, well this is how I do things or like to do things and leave it at that, BUT there are too many fine points in between that I would be tempted to go into finer detail on.  It's a bit of a mental battle for sometimes.   :-D

I'll consider doing that someday when I really know what I'm doing.  Right now, I'm still in the experimenting and learning mode. 

Chau


Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #142 on: November 25, 2010, 12:24:30 PM »
I love the instructional video idea and Chau, I understand you reluctance based on not knowing everything.

We just need a little disclaimer at the front that says something like "I reserve the right to be wrong/not know everything and I invite others to add their improvements for everyone's benefit".  If you think about it, Wikipedia struggles with that every day because no author is omniscient, yet the content on that site is generally quite good.

Chau, has built a lot of knowledge and could, almost singlehandidly, move the ball down to the 20 yard line (and a little help from your friends could take it the rest of the way).  That isn't to dismiss the amazing knowledge of Pete-zza in all things pie-related, or the LBE enthusiasts, or cracker experts, or deep dish experts.

It just seems that the customer need is real.  Think about it.  Many of us have several days of time accumulated on the forum trying to figure out how to make a particular type of pizza.  There is an amazing amount of knowledge captured in this forum, but it can be hard to find.  Pete-zza does an admirable job of providing search results from past posts, helping the inquirer, and reminding us all that the search feature is your friend.

But some people learn best by reading, others by seeing.  For the visual guys, your video could really help.  If it worked out, I could see a library of videos - how to get started making cracker crust; how to make a deep dish pie; etc.

Dave

Offline carbon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #143 on: November 25, 2010, 12:59:25 PM »
I'm a visualist so I can sure use additional instructional videos.  All the info posted so far has helped me tremendously.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #144 on: November 25, 2010, 09:08:59 PM »
PLEASE Jackie yes videos! No real details needed just the basics, dont go crazy a basic beginners guide with a few of your favorie recipes... that would help maximize the use of this great product so many of us are acquiring!  ;D
John
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2010, 12:24:05 PM »
Thanks guys,  I may consider doing that after I get a WFO.  We will see if I still think I know what I'm doing then.  :-D

I had a few more thoughts I wanted to share.   I'm making a few experimental loaves of bread today and decided to open up the Tartine bread book to study the pictures again and re-read for more insight.

I wanted to point out somethings in the book that confirms what  I was saying in post #134 about hydration ration, gluten developement, and sticking issues.

Hydration:  even though Chad is making bread here, dough is dough.   Chad uses around a ~77% HR (including the leaven) for BF.   That is even higher than what I use for pizza dough if using BF.  I normally might use around 70% or so for BF.   On page 55 he says....

"A well-developed dough is more cohesive and releases from the sides of the bowl when you do the turns."

He is talking about gluten developement here vs the stickiness of the dough.  A well development dough will be tacky and doesn't stick leaving chunks of wet dough sticking to your hands. 

Take a look at the first picture on page 57.  Look at how wet that dough is but yet it pulls cleanly from the container.   And then note, that with a minimal amount of bench flour, and several folds how the dough will hold it's ball shape on page 59.  This folding here is what builds/adds strength to the dough.

Then look at how the dough flattens out on page 60.  Again, shaping is now done to further add strength prior to the proofing stage. 

This is a pretty typically routine for bread making, bulk rise, divide, pre-shaping, shaping, proof. 

If we translate that into pizza dough, what I do is very similar.  I don't do all these steps, but basically you can add the strength needed to the dough with rest periods and folding.    How much folds or strength added to the dough is done by experience and the feeling of the dough.   Just note what you do and the finished baked product and adjust that for next time. 

Anyway, these are just some observations that I've made working with pizza dough over the last year and now seeing it Chad's book.  I am continually learning to find that balance myself. 

Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #146 on: November 26, 2010, 12:46:49 PM »
Chau,

I think you may have seen this before, http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza, but you can see how prolonged kneading of a very high hydration dough, around 95%, can produce a dough that is sticky but still manageable. I would think that kneading a dough close to 100% by hand would not be practical. Have you ever tried anything like that by hand?

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #147 on: November 26, 2010, 01:55:47 PM »
Peter I hadn't seen that before, so thank you for posting that link. 

I have experimented a few times with the ultra wet ciabatta doughs before.  I used this recipe, which is very similar to the one you posted.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread

This was back in the day before I owned a mixer though.  Ciabatta bread seems like a very peculiar dough to me.  I've always wonder if it was discovered either accidentally or just by someone wondering if she could make bread with an ultra hydrated dough.   By hand, I would imagine it to be the toughest bread to make corrrectly requiring a mastery of skill and understanding. 

In a way the holey and very open crumb structure of a ciabatta bread is very similar to the Tartine-esque bread that I am currently trying to achieve. 

Chau
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 03:40:59 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #148 on: November 26, 2010, 02:49:49 PM »
Chau, i have made this ciabatta bread recipe http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7779.msg66792.html#msg66792 and it works good, i also tried it with longer fermentation for focaccia and it work even better !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Essen1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2010, 04:20:26 PM »
Quote
In a way the holey and very open crumb structure of a ciabatta bread is very similar to the Tartine-esque bread that I am currently trying to achieve.

Chau,

If you haven't achieved the airy crumb characteristics, it could have something to do with the way the dough is handled during the turning stage and later on during the final shaping/folding.

That would be my best bet since we all use the same, well...more or less, hydrations. What kind of flour do you use for the Tartine bread? High gluten or regular BF?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein


 

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