Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 48647 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #150 on: November 26, 2010, 05:03:37 PM »
Chau,

If you haven't achieved the airy crumb characteristics, it could have something to do with the way the dough is handled during the turning stage and later on during the final shaping/folding.

That would be my best bet since we all use the same, well...more or less, hydrations. What kind of flour do you use for the Tartine bread? High gluten or regular BF?

Mike, I'm have made the bread with 00, AP, BF, and HG flour.   I can get an airy crumb that pretty much looks like everyone else's bread here.  I'm wanting a loaf with the real LARGE holes like Chad's bread in the video or holes like a ciabatta bread.    I've posted most of my bread efforts here.  Reply #23,53,59,60

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12140.60.html

You are absolutely on the $ Mike.  I had thought of that today so instead of bulk rising in a tall container as Chad recommends, I'm turning todays loaves in a regular bowl.  I think I am somehow degassing the dough during the turns or in the later stages.  Not only that but I think I am not proofing them up enough. 

Chau
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 05:31:44 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Reggiano

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #151 on: December 03, 2010, 07:58:14 PM »
Chau, Thank you for being the final link in the chain, that prompted me to SEMI retire my Kitchen Aid Pro 600. I have been putting exceeding demands on my Old Unit, only to have lack luster performance at best. Why Stir, when one can Mix!  I usually mix up a 3 Ball batch of roughly 27 ounces, give or take for a 18 inch screen.
 The final straw came when i lowered the Hydration to 57 percent, only to smell the KA overheating. I have been putting the Bosch Universal through it's pace's, for the last Two day's, and could not be any happier. What a Great machine! To all of you,,, you bring great enjoyment to my viewing pleasure, and my Pizza's are None the Worst for Wear, thanks to all of the members knowledge' that contribute here!  Merry Christmas to all of you.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #152 on: December 04, 2010, 09:25:44 PM »
You're welcome Reggiano, I'm glad I was of some help to you.


My time experimenting with the Bosch mixer maybe very short lived.   After reading Chad Robertson's Tartine Bread book, I have been able to further my understanding and hand techniques in dough making.  At present, I can make (IMO) great dough for bread and pizza by hand with minimal effort.   At the time of purchase of the bosch, I was not confident in my own techniques and I always had that nagging uncertainy that perhaps a mixer, especially a good one could improve my dough.  I just didn't know.   And besides, all the experienced folks had mixers so maybe I should as well.  Today I can say with full confidence that absolutely no mixer is required to make great dough provided the operator understands what he/she is doing.   The truth of the matter is that great dough (the masters' dough) can be made easily by hand with very minimal effort.  Now I understand how guys like Bianco can make dough by hand or by just using the mixer to do the initial mixing of ingredients. 

It's almost a chore for me to pull the bosch out and clean it afterwards.  If I do use it for dough now, which is rare it is really only used to do the initial mixing of 1-2 min and that's if I'm making a large batch and to save a bit of time.   

I usually don't make big batches of dough, except for the occasional pizza party.   For big batches of dough, I would personally use the bosch and highly recommend it or any other mixer.  At one point in time, I thought perhaps I would use the bosch mixer to mix up a big batch of dough and freeze leftover dough for future use.   I now prefer to make dough fresh, so that requirement for a mixer is no longer justified. 

It is a good mixer and I will likely keep it for mixing up cake & cookie batter or the occassional whipping of cream or eggs. 

Cheers all,
Chau

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #153 on: December 04, 2010, 10:02:22 PM »
Theres no doubt that someone can make a great dough with their god given mixers. I think the main reason for having a mixer is for convenience. I know Chau doesn't make big batch's so he might find making dough by hand easier. Me on the other hand I don't think I have made a batch that has used less than 1700g of flour. I have been making dough by hand lately just so I don't lose the touch and I do notice a difference in the quality but I know why I got a mixer in the first place. The added benefit of a mixer is like Chau said in the first couple minutes when incorporating all the ingredients. Sometimes I feel when mixing by hand I don't get the ingredients incorporated well. Anyways good thing we have Chau here with all his experiments, I'm guessing your job has something to do with the reason why you do all the experiments you do. Great stuff.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #154 on: December 04, 2010, 10:51:43 PM »
Thanks David, you hit on 2 really important points about my post.   First, I consider getting an even dough mixture/consistency the foremost important part of mixing dough whether it is done by hand or machine and this occurs in the first few minutes.   

The limitations/challenges of mixing dough by hand and getting an even consistency lies in low hydration doughs and/or big batches.  For my high hydration doughs and small batch sizes 400-800gm, mixing dough by hand is effortless.  Outside of that, a mixer definitely has it's advantages in making life easier.  However in my sitiuation and at this point in time, the quality of dough I can make by hand or machine is nearly identical. 

To get an even mixture by hand one can use a similar method pictured in the tartine book.   Add water and other ingredients into the mixing bowl, add all of flour and squeeze the dough between the fingers until an even mixer is achieved.  Again, of course this is easier done with a high hydration dough.  For pizza or bread, my mixing is about 75% done at this point.  Only several more folds are required to build additional strength into the dough and I'm done.

The 2nd method and the one I use most often is to add about 50% of the flour to the water salt & yeast mixture and stir with a fork briskly to get an even batter.  I will tilt the bowl on it's side a bit and run the edge of the fork back and forth briskly against the wall of the bowl to break up clumps and achieve that even mixture fairly quickly.  Then add another 25% of the flour and repeat. For this stage I will run the fork in a looping motion diving into the center of the wet dough, pulling the fork up high (this exposes more wet surface area), make a clockwise or counterclockwise motion, and repeat to get an even mixture.  This is done for about 30s or so.   After this, I usually dump the wet thickened mass on the bench and dump the remaining 25% of flour over it and dive in with both hands.   I spend about a minute squeezing the wet dough and dry flour between both hands pushing dough out between my fingers until all the flour is incorporated and I have an even mixed dough. 

This entire process takes me about 3mins to do and I get a pretty even and consistent mixture.  At this point the dough does still look rough but after a few folds, a long bulk rise, balling, and a long proof the dough is as soft and silky as is made in the mixer. 

My work does require the tailoring of techniques to different situations, constant monitoring & awareness, critical judgement & decisions, and adjustments & corrections at a moments notice.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 09:45:14 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tampa

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #155 on: December 05, 2010, 02:42:09 PM »
Another fine post Chau.  Thx.  I'll have to give that hand mix a try.
Dave

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2010, 09:54:15 PM »
This thread has me thinking a lot tonight....there was a very funny cartoon picture we used to have posted on a wall in the shop, when I worked in the service department years ago at the Car Dealership.

I tried to find something like it online but haven't been able to.It reminds me very much of pizza making,from the beginning to the very end of advancement of what can be achieved by mixing by hand,
in a bowl first as you first start out and learn,moving onto bigger and better mixers and equipment over time,and in the end,when you mastered it all,you're able to do it just as good or better,in the bowl by simple hand mixing.
 :-D

In the cartoon,

(for another idea,picture as you read along,a beginning pizza maker,wearing a dirty,floured up old apron, in his kitchen at home,using a old oven,having nothing more but a large used bowl,wooden spoon,and cheap baking stone he found at a yard sale,and gets better with time,buying more expensive mixers,ovens and equipment as he gets better)
 :chef:

The first pic is of a young,Beginner Auto Mechanic,with a very simple,small,banged up tool box containing all the tools he could managed to scrape together or afford to at least be able to work.The box looks very old and used,like it was handed down or what he may have found at a yard sale.Has some old,used power tools that still work.He is also wearing dirty old work clothes.

The 2nd pic,shows the same mechanic,Intermediate Novice/Skilled now,aged a little bit,has a newer,somewhat larger nicer,tool box,a new small air compressor next to it,some newer power tools,and he has a better looking uniform on to work with.

The 3rd picture shows the same mechanic,now a bit older,Advanced skilled,has a Super HUGE shiny,fancy expensive,tool box,New,Huge air compressor,shiny power tools everywhere,and a brand new uniform without a crease in the folds!Everything looks polished,shiny,and gleaming!

The 4th and last pic,is the same pic from the very beginning.Mechanic is now a skilled Pro or a Master tech!

He looks much older,but now using the same small,old beat up tool box as the beginning,containing only the necessary tools he now needs and nothing extra.Now wearing old dirty clothes because they are more comfortable.Same old tools from the past as well.He sold off all his un-needed but very expensive equipment he never uses anymore,because He does not need them anymore.He learned enough,he is now able to do all the work with his most basic tools he started with,in the beginning.

 ;D
-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #157 on: December 05, 2010, 10:19:31 PM »
That is an excellent analogy Bill.   Being a nurse anesthetist, I'm also reminded of the days when I worked as an EMT in the ER.  I would carry everything in my paramilitary pants.  I wanted to look cool with all the tools hanging out: sheers, tape, tourniquet, pens, markers, protective glasses, gloves, pocket knife, stethoscope, and a whole lot of other BS (no offense to any newbie medical ppl out there). 

Now, I take care of ppl that are on the verge of death sometimes, with just a pen, a pager, and a cell phone in my pocket.   I know where to find all the other stuff that I need.  And if I can't, I send others to get what I need.   :-D

Another funny story a buddy of mine from Georgia told me years ago.  His grandfather grew up during the depression and that made such an impact on his life he lived frugally the rest of his life.  He said his grandfather owned so much land and was so filthy rich but he never lived like he was.   At 70 something years of age, he still used a plain ol' rope to tie his pants.  he didn't even own a belt.   And when they went hunting, he only brought 1 bullet with him.   While others came by empty handed, my friend told me his grandpa always brought something back after a hunt. 

I'm not saying the mixers and fancy ovens aren't needed.  Hell we live in a world of excess and those things are definitely nice to have.   It's just easy to lose sight of what we really need and don't need.  If we are willing to work hard, I think we can come to realize we don't need half of the stuff we want and come to appreciate the other half we do have. 

About the mixing of dough.  When I first started, I looked closely at so many different recipes and techniques.  Most stating knead and mix times of 10-20mins.   I'm telling you now that it's just not necessary.   Tailor your mixing to your flour and hydration ratio.   Using HG flour and a fairly high hydration, I mix 3-4 minutes max.  I do later incorporate some folds as shown in the videos I posted earlier in this thread.  And again, that's high hydration and hand mixing.  If you are using a mixer and a lower hydration ratio, that time is decreased.   If using a lower protein flour then up the mixing by a few minutes.  The long rest times and a few folds here and there will make up the rest. 

Chau

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #158 on: December 05, 2010, 10:37:53 PM »
Chau,
I enjoyed reading those stories you posted!I have family and friends in the medical field,I can imagine,it wasn't easy at first!
 :)

Glad you liked the story I posted as well.Im not there yet,and still want to get myself a mixer and better equipment myself,yet I do know,in time,when I get better at this,I may find I might not need some of the things I might buy.
 :-D

Thats ok..its a learning quest,and have to get there in small steps.As you and others did...alot of you have Graduated with trial and error.Im hoping I get there someday.Without you for advise and the others,I would still be repeating the same old garbage thats passed around online like it is gospel.

I also wanted to express many thanks for helping me through emails with my questions I had,same as the others online here that have helped as well.I am getting better all the time and it feels good.I do not feel stuck somewhere anymore,as I did in the beginning.Im sure I will have more questions later,but as of now,I look forward to learning more,helping others and enjoying our passion of making pizza and breads!
 :)




-Bill


Offline DonC

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #159 on: December 17, 2010, 07:57:20 AM »
My wife and I bought a Bosch U+ for our anniversary this fall after our KA 325watt died after only using it for Christmas cookies and a batch of pizza dough every month or two for about 5 yrs.We love our BUP just as we love our Bosch dishwasher,washer/dryer and battery drill LOL. This thread has been very interesting to read,thanks!!!.
On the kneading by hand,I'd just add that as someone who went to work as a union laborer the day I turned 18 in 1973 and is now an industrial/commercial electrician a lifetime of heavy labor has left me with many aches and pains and although I can still knead by hand,my shoulders,wrists,etc. are worn out and as I age I become more aware of the benefits of not overdoing it.My wife as a secretary has struggled with carpel-tunnel pain and is already at the stage of not being able to physically knead.
 I've been making bread or pizza a couple times a week since we got our Bosch and I'd say the same as most here,the only drawback IMHO is it doesn't mix small batches of dough very well.

Offline rhomp2002

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #160 on: December 17, 2010, 08:57:59 PM »
I would love to knead or mix by hand.  Unfortunately I have emphysema and find that I have to stop about every couple of minutes and get my breath back to keep kneading.   I guess it is a lot like having arthritis. 

I have been having great luck with using my BUP.  I got the Compact and liked it so much I graduated to the BUP and find it works great for me.   I have been making the Tartine bread using the BUP to mix the things.   Only problem I am having is getting the water amounts right.   It seems to be very sensitive to the various flours.  I have to make a chart of which flour needs which amount of water.

Haven't tried making pizza with sourdough dough yet.  I am about to try that in the next few days.    I am trying to find the really good mozzarella.  The supermarket mozzarella is pitiful and since I don't have a car it is a bit of a trek to get to the good local cheese shop.   Once I get that part of it I have everything else and will see what I can do with it then.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #161 on: December 17, 2010, 11:31:58 PM »
Hello DonC and rhomp2002.  I guess I had not consider physical limitations as a reason for purchasing a mixer, but it is a good reason. 

Rhomp2002, you are correct in that different strengths of flours require different amounts of water.  For awhile I too recorded the amounts of water used for different flours.  I have also made charts for different types and amounts of yeast used and how long it would take for dough to ferment at room temps.

In making Tartine bread, an easy trick that I use is to put in the approximate amount of water that you think you might need.  Then try to approximate the look of your mixed dough to the pictures in Chad's book.  Add a bit more water or flour to try and get the consistency of your dough similar to Chad's.  If I start off with that as a baseline, I find that it gives me a great result.

Good luck,
Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #162 on: December 17, 2010, 11:43:57 PM »
Chau,

I think you may have seen this before, http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza, but you can see how prolonged kneading of a very high hydration dough, around 95%, can produce a dough that is sticky but still manageable. I would think that kneading a dough close to 100% by hand would not be practical. Have you ever tried anything like that by hand?

Peter

Peter, I just realized that I hadn't answered your question.  I can't say that I've hand kneaded pizza dough in the 95%-100% hydration.  The highest I believe that I have hand kneaded is about an 85% using AP flour.   I can hand knead doughs above an 85% BUT would require a few specific tricks and techniques and it wouldn't likely produce a good pizza dough.  I would likely have to build excess strength into the dough which would result in a tough chewy crumb.   

High hydrations may be beneficial for bread inwhich the bake time is sufficiently long enough to bake the moisture out, but for pizza dough it is not ideal.   I find that too high a hydration and I get a wet (too moist) crumb and the dough doesn't cook properly.

Chau

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #163 on: December 18, 2010, 12:02:42 AM »

Chau

Your last post raised some interesting questions:
1. what are the specific tricks and techniques for dealing with hydration above 85%?
2. what is the maximum level of hydration for a given type of flour, bake time and temp above which the crumb of the pie will be too moist?

Bob

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #164 on: December 18, 2010, 09:58:24 AM »
Chau

Your last post raised some interesting questions:
1. what are the specific tricks and techniques for dealing with hydration above 85%?
2. what is the maximum level of hydration for a given type of flour, bake time and temp above which the crumb of the pie will be too moist?

Bob

Bobino, the dough that I made that was ~85% hydration was made with AP flour.  No doubt, if I use HG flour I could push it towards 90% and perhaps beyond and still have the dough somewhat "manageable".

Here's a sample recipe I would use to make a 90%+ hydrated pizza dough.
flour   100%  (HG bromated flour)
water  90%
salt   3%?
yeast  ?
No oil

I would dissolve the salt into the water, and sift in about 75% of the flour.  Mix well into a batter like consistency and allow for 2-3 hour autolyse for gluten developement.   After a long rest period I would use the french method of kneading (Richard Bertinet) and bang the dough out.   I would knead the dough in this fashion until I felt like there is sufficient gluten developed into the dough.   I'm guessing this would take about 12-15m.   During this time I would add as little of the remain 25% of the flour as possible.   Using this method (my old method of preparing pizza dough) I would inevitably not use up all of the alotted flour and have some remaining.  I would allow the dough to rest 5-10m and then incorporate multiple folds by hand into the dough for strength.  I would rest the dough again and repeat this cycle as necessary.    I assure you, making a 90%+ hydrated dough would be easy for me, but the resulting crust is likely something you wouldn't want to eat.   :-D

Your 2nd question is a tough one to answer.  I can't provide numerical values that would hold true in every kitchen let alone my own b/c there are too many variables involved aside from just the strength of the flour.  If a dough is highly hydrated, the way to cure that dough and avoid a too moist of a crumb would be to lower the temp and increase the bake time.  So long as the crust held up and didn't burn, you can bake a bread as long as you needed to inorder to dry out the crumb.

In talking about pizza we have to consider the sauce and cheese involved.  At some point during a prolonged bake, the cheese would oil off and then dry out creating a less than ideal texture.  So for pizza, there is a limit to how long we can bake the pizza or crust and still get a semi-edible pizza.   If the hydration of the dough doesn't allow for the crumb to be sufficiently dry during an ideal bake time, then you would have a crumb that is considered too wet. 

I can't say what a maximum level of hydration would be for others, but for me it would be something similar to this. 

00 flour 68%
AP 71-72%
BF ~74%
HG > 77%

Above these values and I have to bake pies greater than 6-7m which I don't find ideal.  Ideally, I like to bake my pizzas around the 4-5m range, but YMMV.   Here is the 85% hydrated AP pie I made that actually produced a decent eating pie.  I would think this situation would be rare for me.

The 3rd pie in post #20 is the AP floured pie with a HR of ~85%.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.20.html

Chau
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 10:06:25 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #165 on: December 18, 2010, 10:12:50 AM »
Chau

Your last post raised some interesting questions:
1. what are the specific tricks and techniques for dealing with hydration above 85%?

Bob

A method that I use & find  extremely effective at developing gluten for high hydration doughs is the double hydration method.  I mix all the formula ingredients except 20% of the formula water & knead until I reach a moderate level of gluten development.  I then slowly add the remaining formula water & knead until it comes back together as a single mass.  I do a couple of stretch & folds at 45 minute intervals for the first 90 minutes of the bulk fermentation.

Matt

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #166 on: December 18, 2010, 10:15:40 AM »
In talking about pizza we have to consider the sauce and cheese involved.  At some point during a prolonged bake, the cheese would oil off and then dry out creating a less than ideal texture.  So for pizza, there is a limit to how long we can bake the pizza or crust and still get a semi-edible pizza.   If the hydration of the dough doesn't allow for the crumb to be sufficiently dry during an ideal bake time, then you would have a crumb that is considered too wet. 

Chau,

That is a very good point. With bread, it's the bread by itself, and not having to worry about the interaction between dough (including its shape and form) and cheeses, sauces and toppings as you would with pizza. Those concerns alter the application of the principles that normally apply to bread dough.

Peter


Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #167 on: December 18, 2010, 11:32:56 AM »

Chau and Matt-all good info.

Chau-the photos of the pies you posted re: 85% hydration look better than yummy !!

Thanks

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #168 on: January 12, 2011, 09:38:40 PM »
I've been doing a lot of experimentation with lower protein flours, higher hydration than normal, and increase mix times and speed.  I can do it by hand but it takes too much time to develop proper gluten strength by hand.  I'm back to using the BUP religiously.   It has been a great timesaver. 

Chau

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #169 on: January 14, 2011, 03:45:47 PM »
Hi Guys,

back from my vacation in the U.S, and purchased a BUP, just tested it now, and WOW !! what a great machine, im posting a video of it kneading some caputo dough, 1kg flour + 60% hydration, will bake some baguette's tomorrow and used caputo that a had...

next batch, maybe next weekend, will be for pizza, and will try to make 2.5kg of flour....



"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #170 on: January 14, 2011, 03:51:49 PM »
very nice Andre.  Congrats!  How long are you kneading for?

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #171 on: January 14, 2011, 03:55:08 PM »
thank you Chau, Steve and others that recommended the Bosch !! im really happy with the first result that i got !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #172 on: January 14, 2011, 07:06:10 PM »
Andre,  good test.  I am sure you will like the final results.   2.5 kg of flour is no problem with that thing! -marc

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2011, 06:24:29 AM »
never afraid to try new things, eh Chau?  Those pies look good - I have settled on 67-68% HR with my Ap flour for now, but I think I need a Bosch as well..my kitchen aid just does not seem to do it for me.  Question - when mixing in 75% or so of the flour and water, etc, about how long are you mixing for before letting it rest?  I have still been doing minimal mixing (just enough to incorporate the ingredients) and then letting it sit for about 20 minutes before adding the rest of the flour (and then mixing about another 10 minutes).  At times, i still feel like I do NOT have enough Gluten developed???

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #174 on: January 15, 2011, 10:07:08 AM »
never afraid to try new things, eh Chau?  Those pies look good - I have settled on 67-68% HR with my Ap flour for now, but I think I need a Bosch as well..my kitchen aid just does not seem to do it for me.  Question - when mixing in 75% or so of the flour and water, etc, about how long are you mixing for before letting it rest?  I have still been doing minimal mixing (just enough to incorporate the ingredients) and then letting it sit for about 20 minutes before adding the rest of the flour (and then mixing about another 10 minutes).  At times, i still feel like I do NOT have enough Gluten developed???

I would trust your instincts Shaun.  If you feel like there's not enough gluten develop, you very well could be right.  i'm still learning what that really is and means myself.   But if you are going for ultra high hydration doughs (75% HR for AP flour), then after the initially 1-2m mix to get things incorporated I let the dough AL for even longer, sometimes 40m if I'm not too impatient.  Then the mix times depend on the speed.  Faster speed = less time.   For a low speed, and that hydration ratio you may need upwards of 15m.   I should note that when doing these high hydrations, I'm using the classic AL with just the flour, & water.  Yeast & salt is added after the AL during the kneading, and oil (if using) at the very end.

If you feel like you aren't getting enough gluten development, try upping the speed to level 2 and decrease your current kneading times.  You can also add in a few hand folds at 20m intervals to continue building the gluten strength. 

Chau 


 

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