Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 37406 times)

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Offline rhomp2002

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #160 on: December 17, 2010, 08:57:59 PM »
I would love to knead or mix by hand.  Unfortunately I have emphysema and find that I have to stop about every couple of minutes and get my breath back to keep kneading.   I guess it is a lot like having arthritis. 

I have been having great luck with using my BUP.  I got the Compact and liked it so much I graduated to the BUP and find it works great for me.   I have been making the Tartine bread using the BUP to mix the things.   Only problem I am having is getting the water amounts right.   It seems to be very sensitive to the various flours.  I have to make a chart of which flour needs which amount of water.

Haven't tried making pizza with sourdough dough yet.  I am about to try that in the next few days.    I am trying to find the really good mozzarella.  The supermarket mozzarella is pitiful and since I don't have a car it is a bit of a trek to get to the good local cheese shop.   Once I get that part of it I have everything else and will see what I can do with it then.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #161 on: December 17, 2010, 11:31:58 PM »
Hello DonC and rhomp2002.  I guess I had not consider physical limitations as a reason for purchasing a mixer, but it is a good reason. 

Rhomp2002, you are correct in that different strengths of flours require different amounts of water.  For awhile I too recorded the amounts of water used for different flours.  I have also made charts for different types and amounts of yeast used and how long it would take for dough to ferment at room temps.

In making Tartine bread, an easy trick that I use is to put in the approximate amount of water that you think you might need.  Then try to approximate the look of your mixed dough to the pictures in Chad's book.  Add a bit more water or flour to try and get the consistency of your dough similar to Chad's.  If I start off with that as a baseline, I find that it gives me a great result.

Good luck,
Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #162 on: December 17, 2010, 11:43:57 PM »
Chau,

I think you may have seen this before, http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza, but you can see how prolonged kneading of a very high hydration dough, around 95%, can produce a dough that is sticky but still manageable. I would think that kneading a dough close to 100% by hand would not be practical. Have you ever tried anything like that by hand?

Peter

Peter, I just realized that I hadn't answered your question.  I can't say that I've hand kneaded pizza dough in the 95%-100% hydration.  The highest I believe that I have hand kneaded is about an 85% using AP flour.   I can hand knead doughs above an 85% BUT would require a few specific tricks and techniques and it wouldn't likely produce a good pizza dough.  I would likely have to build excess strength into the dough which would result in a tough chewy crumb.   

High hydrations may be beneficial for bread inwhich the bake time is sufficiently long enough to bake the moisture out, but for pizza dough it is not ideal.   I find that too high a hydration and I get a wet (too moist) crumb and the dough doesn't cook properly.

Chau

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #163 on: December 18, 2010, 12:02:42 AM »

Chau

Your last post raised some interesting questions:
1. what are the specific tricks and techniques for dealing with hydration above 85%?
2. what is the maximum level of hydration for a given type of flour, bake time and temp above which the crumb of the pie will be too moist?

Bob

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #164 on: December 18, 2010, 09:58:24 AM »
Chau

Your last post raised some interesting questions:
1. what are the specific tricks and techniques for dealing with hydration above 85%?
2. what is the maximum level of hydration for a given type of flour, bake time and temp above which the crumb of the pie will be too moist?

Bob

Bobino, the dough that I made that was ~85% hydration was made with AP flour.  No doubt, if I use HG flour I could push it towards 90% and perhaps beyond and still have the dough somewhat "manageable".

Here's a sample recipe I would use to make a 90%+ hydrated pizza dough.
flour   100%  (HG bromated flour)
water  90%
salt   3%?
yeast  ?
No oil

I would dissolve the salt into the water, and sift in about 75% of the flour.  Mix well into a batter like consistency and allow for 2-3 hour autolyse for gluten developement.   After a long rest period I would use the french method of kneading (Richard Bertinet) and bang the dough out.   I would knead the dough in this fashion until I felt like there is sufficient gluten developed into the dough.   I'm guessing this would take about 12-15m.   During this time I would add as little of the remain 25% of the flour as possible.   Using this method (my old method of preparing pizza dough) I would inevitably not use up all of the alotted flour and have some remaining.  I would allow the dough to rest 5-10m and then incorporate multiple folds by hand into the dough for strength.  I would rest the dough again and repeat this cycle as necessary.    I assure you, making a 90%+ hydrated dough would be easy for me, but the resulting crust is likely something you wouldn't want to eat.   :-D

Your 2nd question is a tough one to answer.  I can't provide numerical values that would hold true in every kitchen let alone my own b/c there are too many variables involved aside from just the strength of the flour.  If a dough is highly hydrated, the way to cure that dough and avoid a too moist of a crumb would be to lower the temp and increase the bake time.  So long as the crust held up and didn't burn, you can bake a bread as long as you needed to inorder to dry out the crumb.

In talking about pizza we have to consider the sauce and cheese involved.  At some point during a prolonged bake, the cheese would oil off and then dry out creating a less than ideal texture.  So for pizza, there is a limit to how long we can bake the pizza or crust and still get a semi-edible pizza.   If the hydration of the dough doesn't allow for the crumb to be sufficiently dry during an ideal bake time, then you would have a crumb that is considered too wet. 

I can't say what a maximum level of hydration would be for others, but for me it would be something similar to this. 

00 flour 68%
AP 71-72%
BF ~74%
HG > 77%

Above these values and I have to bake pies greater than 6-7m which I don't find ideal.  Ideally, I like to bake my pizzas around the 4-5m range, but YMMV.   Here is the 85% hydrated AP pie I made that actually produced a decent eating pie.  I would think this situation would be rare for me.

The 3rd pie in post #20 is the AP floured pie with a HR of ~85%.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.20.html

Chau
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 10:06:25 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #165 on: December 18, 2010, 10:12:50 AM »
Chau

Your last post raised some interesting questions:
1. what are the specific tricks and techniques for dealing with hydration above 85%?

Bob

A method that I use & find  extremely effective at developing gluten for high hydration doughs is the double hydration method.  I mix all the formula ingredients except 20% of the formula water & knead until I reach a moderate level of gluten development.  I then slowly add the remaining formula water & knead until it comes back together as a single mass.  I do a couple of stretch & folds at 45 minute intervals for the first 90 minutes of the bulk fermentation.

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #166 on: December 18, 2010, 10:15:40 AM »
In talking about pizza we have to consider the sauce and cheese involved.  At some point during a prolonged bake, the cheese would oil off and then dry out creating a less than ideal texture.  So for pizza, there is a limit to how long we can bake the pizza or crust and still get a semi-edible pizza.   If the hydration of the dough doesn't allow for the crumb to be sufficiently dry during an ideal bake time, then you would have a crumb that is considered too wet. 

Chau,

That is a very good point. With bread, it's the bread by itself, and not having to worry about the interaction between dough (including its shape and form) and cheeses, sauces and toppings as you would with pizza. Those concerns alter the application of the principles that normally apply to bread dough.

Peter

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #167 on: December 18, 2010, 11:32:56 AM »

Chau and Matt-all good info.

Chau-the photos of the pies you posted re: 85% hydration look better than yummy !!

Thanks

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #168 on: January 12, 2011, 09:38:40 PM »
I've been doing a lot of experimentation with lower protein flours, higher hydration than normal, and increase mix times and speed.  I can do it by hand but it takes too much time to develop proper gluten strength by hand.  I'm back to using the BUP religiously.   It has been a great timesaver. 

Chau

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #169 on: January 14, 2011, 03:45:47 PM »
Hi Guys,

back from my vacation in the U.S, and purchased a BUP, just tested it now, and WOW !! what a great machine, im posting a video of it kneading some caputo dough, 1kg flour + 60% hydration, will bake some baguette's tomorrow and used caputo that a had...

next batch, maybe next weekend, will be for pizza, and will try to make 2.5kg of flour....



"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #170 on: January 14, 2011, 03:51:49 PM »
very nice Andre.  Congrats!  How long are you kneading for?

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #171 on: January 14, 2011, 03:55:08 PM »
thank you Chau, Steve and others that recommended the Bosch !! im really happy with the first result that i got !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #172 on: January 14, 2011, 07:06:10 PM »
Andre,  good test.  I am sure you will like the final results.   2.5 kg of flour is no problem with that thing! -marc

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2011, 06:24:29 AM »
never afraid to try new things, eh Chau?  Those pies look good - I have settled on 67-68% HR with my Ap flour for now, but I think I need a Bosch as well..my kitchen aid just does not seem to do it for me.  Question - when mixing in 75% or so of the flour and water, etc, about how long are you mixing for before letting it rest?  I have still been doing minimal mixing (just enough to incorporate the ingredients) and then letting it sit for about 20 minutes before adding the rest of the flour (and then mixing about another 10 minutes).  At times, i still feel like I do NOT have enough Gluten developed???

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #174 on: January 15, 2011, 10:07:08 AM »
never afraid to try new things, eh Chau?  Those pies look good - I have settled on 67-68% HR with my Ap flour for now, but I think I need a Bosch as well..my kitchen aid just does not seem to do it for me.  Question - when mixing in 75% or so of the flour and water, etc, about how long are you mixing for before letting it rest?  I have still been doing minimal mixing (just enough to incorporate the ingredients) and then letting it sit for about 20 minutes before adding the rest of the flour (and then mixing about another 10 minutes).  At times, i still feel like I do NOT have enough Gluten developed???

I would trust your instincts Shaun.  If you feel like there's not enough gluten develop, you very well could be right.  i'm still learning what that really is and means myself.   But if you are going for ultra high hydration doughs (75% HR for AP flour), then after the initially 1-2m mix to get things incorporated I let the dough AL for even longer, sometimes 40m if I'm not too impatient.  Then the mix times depend on the speed.  Faster speed = less time.   For a low speed, and that hydration ratio you may need upwards of 15m.   I should note that when doing these high hydrations, I'm using the classic AL with just the flour, & water.  Yeast & salt is added after the AL during the kneading, and oil (if using) at the very end.

If you feel like you aren't getting enough gluten development, try upping the speed to level 2 and decrease your current kneading times.  You can also add in a few hand folds at 20m intervals to continue building the gluten strength. 

Chau 

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #175 on: January 15, 2011, 11:01:01 AM »
Chau - I will try as you suggested and see the differences.  I have been putting the salt and yeast in first, then the flour.....I will try just water and flour and then the AL, and then add the salt and yeast..question then..I thought I wanted the salt and yeast to dissolve in my water to incorporate evenly????  I honestly have never done it any different???  I will have to give that a try tomorrow or this evening.  Thanks for the tips as always!

Shaun

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #176 on: January 15, 2011, 11:17:32 AM »
Chau - I will try as you suggested and see the differences.  I have been putting the salt and yeast in first, then the flour.....I will try just water and flour and then the AL, and then add the salt and yeast..question then..I thought I wanted the salt and yeast to dissolve in my water to incorporate evenly????  I honestly have never done it any different???  I will have to give that a try tomorrow or this evening.  Thanks for the tips as always!

Shaun

If you are using IDY, then you can incorporate it in later in the mix without issue.  If using ADY, then you may want to save maybe 10gm of water and proof your ADY in that while waiting for the flour and water to AL.  Don't worry about salt and yeast being incorporated evenly.  They will do that during the extended mix times. 

In the Tartine bread book, the technique is to add the salt with a bit of water after the AL and do hand turns.  You don't even have to dissolve the salt in the water and just added it to the wet dough.  It will incorporate itself with just a series of hand turns.  So it shouldn't be a problem in a mixer no matter how poorly it mixes.  :-D

I'm not to the point of understanding all the reasons for doing things in a particular order versus just dumping it all in.  My instinct tells me that it doesn't matter and to just dump it all in b/c it's easier that way.  However, the more skilled members I talk to and the more videos I watch, the more I'm seeing a certain workflow.  I'm in the process of trying to perfect my bread and pizza crust.  Once I can get that down, then I'll be able to test different workflows against one another to see if there is a real difference or not.  It's just a lot of trial and error ahead of me that I'm taking my time with.  In the meantime, this is what I have been doing with some very good results.  There are so many factors involved that when I get it right with bread or pizza, I'm not always 100% sure of everything that was responsible for the particular results.  However - I am getting closer with each bake.   ;)

Chau
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 11:19:43 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline gtsum2

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #177 on: January 15, 2011, 11:35:03 AM »
If you are using IDY, then you can incorporate it in later in the mix without issue.  If using ADY, then you may want to save maybe 10gm of water and proof your ADY in that while waiting for the flour and water to AL.  Don't worry about salt and yeast being incorporated evenly.  They will do that during the extended mix times. 

In the Tartine bread book, the technique is to add the salt with a bit of water after the AL and do hand turns.  You don't even have to dissolve the salt in the water and just added it to the wet dough.  It will incorporate itself with just a series of hand turns.  So it shouldn't be a problem in a mixer no matter how poorly it mixes.  :-D

I'm not to the point of understanding all the reasons for doing things in a particular order versus just dumping it all in.  My instinct tells me that it doesn't matter and to just dump it all in b/c it's easier that way.  However, the more skilled members I talk to and the more videos I watch, the more I'm seeing a certain workflow.  I'm in the process of trying to perfect my bread and pizza crust.  Once I can get that down, then I'll be able to test different workflows against one another to see if there is a real difference or not.  It's just a lot of trial and error ahead of me that I'm taking my time with.  In the meantime, this is what I have been doing with some very good results.  There are so many factors involved that when I get it right with bread or pizza, I'm not always 100% sure of everything that was responsible for the particular results.  However - I am getting closer with each bake.   ;)

Chau


thank you sir..I will give it a whirl and see what happens:)

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2011, 07:03:32 PM »
Well, made dough for tomorrow (it a holiday here) and use the BUP with 3.2Kg of flour + 60% hydration and it was perfect... o could not believe it could handle that much dough... sorry  :'( no pics... but will take some tomorrow !!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline vrumvrum

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #179 on: May 16, 2011, 02:53:41 PM »
sry for bumping the thread like that.

Can anybody tell me where can I buy a BUP in Orlando, Florida.  Im from Brazil, my mon is travelling to US on the 28th of may, and i would like to buy this mixer. It just seem like its going to be hard to find a place that sells this equipment.  I browsed the internet and didnt really find any store that would have it for sure.  Any help/tips would be much appreciated