Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 37777 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #180 on: June 13, 2011, 12:13:53 PM »
Well, made dough for tomorrow (it a holiday here) and use the BUP with 3.2Kg of flour + 60% hydration and it was perfect... o could not believe it could handle that much dough... sorry  :'( no pics... but will take some tomorrow !!

Andre or anyone, I have a pizza party coming this weekend whereby I have to feed about 30 people or so.  I plan to do several batches but was thinking of doing a 3.6kg batch (about 14 balls)  at 65% hydration.   I haven't mixed big batches in my bosch so I was wondering if you can tell me what routine you use.   

Will the Bosch do a 3.6kg batch?  Did you have any room left in the bowl with the 3.2kg batch Andre?

Do you add all the water in the bowl and then add flour slowly while it's running?  Or do you just dump everything in there, cover and turn it on and it will eventually mix it all up?

Thanks


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #181 on: June 13, 2011, 12:59:16 PM »
Chau,

i always use 3 to 3.2Kg of flour, never went beyond that, cause the bowl was really full (not to the top, but looks full enough to not go beyond that)... i think 3.6 is pushing it a little..... maybe you could do 2x 1.8Kg batch.

i always start with all of the water, then mix all of the flour until its incorporated, then i use a 20m autolyse, then knead on slow for 7-8m.
i always use the dough creep gizmo http://www.breadtopia.com/store/bosch-dough-glide-tool.html because the dough gets pretty wild in there and usually wants to go down the shaft...
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2011, 01:03:17 PM »
chau, here is a pic with 3Kg of flour and the 60% water.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13080.msg130196.html#msg130196
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2011, 02:18:02 PM »
Chau, i am reading the post again... you are talking about 3.6 batch right?? and i am talking about 3.2Kg of Flour that is a 5.12Kg batch.... so 3.6Kg batch is a walk in the park for BUP.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2011, 04:08:37 PM »
Yes 3.6kg batch.  Thank you Andre.

Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2011, 06:16:11 PM »
The Bosch can handle 18 balls of 280 gram dough? I had no idea it had that type of capacity.

John
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 06:18:04 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #186 on: June 13, 2011, 06:55:54 PM »
the BUP is a beast!! next time ill film the BUP in action!!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline AgPie

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #187 on: September 25, 2011, 12:18:11 PM »
Wow, at this point W values and the study of the different types of wheat are still way beyond me.

Wanted to repeat the Small batch test #1 this morning and also conduct a new experiment on short vs long knead times in the Bosch. 

The formula I used today is a typical NY formula, but I used AP flour instead BF.  I won't be baking with this flour and made it for another experiment this afternoon. 

Flour 100% AP
Water 68%
Salt 2%
Cake Yeast 0.1%
Oil 2%

Repeating Test #1 - Small batch test
During the initial small batch test, I notice that the small batch adapter seem to hinder mixing.  That is, it would help trap the small batch of dough along the center column.  By removing it, the dough was free to move about and into the mixing arms path.   For today's experiment, I started out with a 300gm batch without the small batch adapter and noted that it wasn't really mixing.  I then added another 100gm and noted that the doughball was finally getting moved around the bowl and being mixed.

To ensure that it was being mixed properly and evenly, I added a bit of green food coloring.  I took pictures after 1 and 3 mins of mixing and the food coloring seem to be evenly dispersed.

I would conclude that ~400gm is the minimal dough weight you can mix in the BUP.  At this point I can not recommend the small batch adapter sold by Breadtopia for $6.  It seems to not help but actually hinder the mixing of small batches. 

Chau

Chau, what do you mean by 400gm batch ? is it the weight of the flour or combined weight of all the ingredients. I tried kneading 600gm flour with 375gm water for the first time in my Bosch and the dough was not even touching the triangular hook of the mixing arm. The dough did not looked properly knead to me. I put in 450gm flour and all the other ingredients in the bowl and knead for 1min on position 1 then a 20 mins rest and then again knead for 5 mins on position 1, then started adding the remaining 150gm flour for 3 mins. Thats total of 8 mins. Can I do it differently to get better looking(knead) dough ?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #188 on: September 25, 2011, 03:09:55 PM »
Chau, what do you mean by 400gm batch ? is it the weight of the flour or combined weight of all the ingredients. I tried kneading 600gm flour with 375gm water for the first time in my Bosch and the dough was not even touching the triangular hook of the mixing arm. The dough did not looked properly knead to me. I put in 450gm flour and all the other ingredients in the bowl and knead for 1min on position 1 then a 20 mins rest and then again knead for 5 mins on position 1, then started adding the remaining 150gm flour for 3 mins. Thats total of 8 mins. Can I do it differently to get better looking(knead) dough ?

AgPie, a 400gm batch of dough refers to combined weight of all the ingredients.   Around 400gm is the smallest amount of dough that you can have in the bosch universal and it still mix/knead evenly in the bottom of the bowl.  If the dough is wrapping itself around the center shaft, then it is not mixing/kneading.   The dough (ball) does not have to touch the triangle part of the mixing arms to mix properly.   When mixing small batches, if you find that the dough is wrapping itself up along the center shaft, then you hydration is too high. 

To answer your question if you can do it differently too get a better looking dough, I'm not sure.  It depends on what your dough looks like to begin with.  I don't know how your dough looks unless you post a picture of it. 

There are many ways to go about using the Bosch or any mixer.  They can all work well.  The specific order inwhich you add ingredients is MUCH less important than the condition of the dough, so it's good that you are thinking about how the dough should look.

Here is an easy method that I use often when using my Bosch for mixing dough.   In a separate cup or bowl, I dissolve my yeast and salt into the water.  I put all the flour into the bosch and turn it on speed 1, then immediately pour the liquid in as the flour is spinning.  Instead of dumping it all in, I tend to pour it in a steady stream.   You can also flipp the order, and add the water, salt, and yeast into the bowl first, then add your flour. 

I let the bosch mix all the ingredients for 1-2m.  Then cover the bowl and let the mixture sit 30-45m.  I then pull the dough out, give ia quick 2-3 folds, then back into the bowl and mix/knead on speed 1 for 4-8 minutes depending on the flour and hydration.

Chau

Offline Martino1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #189 on: September 25, 2011, 09:04:02 PM »
My Bosch is on the way from Germany, brought over by a colleague. He had to pay 150€ more for having a third piece of luggage #%#^%+%$ Airline ! Ouch, This machine will have to work a lot to get me back the money  >:(
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)


Offline AgPie

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #190 on: September 26, 2011, 05:37:26 AM »
AgPie, a 400gm batch of dough refers to combined weight of all the ingredients.   Around 400gm is the smallest amount of dough that you can have in the bosch universal and it still mix/knead evenly in the bottom of the bowl.  If the dough is wrapping itself around the center shaft, then it is not mixing/kneading.   The dough (ball) does not have to touch the triangle part of the mixing arms to mix properly.   When mixing small batches, if you find that the dough is wrapping itself up along the center shaft, then you hydration is too high. 

To answer your question if you can do it differently too get a better looking dough, I'm not sure.  It depends on what your dough looks like to begin with.  I don't know how your dough looks unless you post a picture of it. 

There are many ways to go about using the Bosch or any mixer.  They can all work well.  The specific order inwhich you add ingredients is MUCH less important than the condition of the dough, so it's good that you are thinking about how the dough should look.

Here is an easy method that I use often when using my Bosch for mixing dough.   In a separate cup or bowl, I dissolve my yeast and salt into the water.  I put all the flour into the bosch and turn it on speed 1, then immediately pour the liquid in as the flour is spinning.  Instead of dumping it all in, I tend to pour it in a steady stream.   You can also flipp the order, and add the water, salt, and yeast into the bowl first, then add your flour. 

I let the bosch mix all the ingredients for 1-2m.  Then cover the bowl and let the mixture sit 30-45m.  I then pull the dough out, give ia quick 2-3 folds, then back into the bowl and mix/knead on speed 1 for 4-8 minutes depending on the flour and hydration.

Chau

Thanks Chau. I'll post the pictures next time. I made a 63% dough and it was very sticky to give it 2-3 folds.

Offline Martino1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #191 on: September 27, 2011, 03:34:34 AM »
If the dough is wrapping itself around the center shaft, then it is not mixing/kneading.   The dough (ball) does not have to touch the triangle part of the mixing arms to mix properly.   When mixing small batches, if you find that the dough is wrapping itself up along the center shaft, then you hydration is too high.  

To answer your question if you can do it differently too get a better looking dough, I'm not sure.  It depends on what your dough looks like to begin with.  I don't know how your dough looks unless you post a picture of it.  

There are many ways to go about using the Bosch or any mixer.  They can all work well.  The specific order inwhich you add ingredients is MUCH less important than the condition of the dough, so it's good that you are thinking about how the dough should look.

Here is an easy method that I use often when using my Bosch for mixing dough.   In a separate cup or bowl, I dissolve my yeast and salt into the water.  I put all the flour into the bosch and turn it on speed 1, then immediately pour the liquid in as the flour is spinning.  Instead of dumping it all in, I tend to pour it in a steady stream.   You can also flipp the order, and add the water, salt, and yeast into the bowl first, then add your flour.  

I let the bosch mix all the ingredients for 1-2m.  Then cover the bowl and let the mixture sit 30-45m.  I then pull the dough out, give ia quick 2-3 folds, then back into the bowl and mix/knead on speed 1 for 4-8 minutes depending on the flour and hydration.

Chau

Hello Chau,
I tried my new Bosch the first time this morning. I was hand mixing up to now and  recently achieved a smooth dough, windowpaning.
Now I am seeking to reproduce this with the Bosch or even improve.
I mixed up  70/30 HG/00 with a 60% hydration and 2.8% salt to totally 750grams of dough weight.
I followed the suggested procedure you have described before.

Put in the water, dissolved the salt and then the flour (IDY distributed in the flour).
after the ingredients came together the mass concentrated around the center (see picture). gave it 30min rest. Pulled out the dough... it was very sticky. Gave it some stretch and folds. Put it back to the machine and had a 10 min more kneading.
To get it smooth i to it out of the machine and gave it more folds and kneaded it with my fist, adding a bit of bench flour and finally achieved the dough in the texture i wanted to achieve.

The dough was still sticky and not yet windowpaning at all even after 30min rest after initial mix and after the folds and 10min more machine work.(as opposed to my hand kneaded doughs). Only after THE LAST step of hand kneading it was maybe 5min more i got the supple texture.

I have the following questions, maybe could you shed some light on it ?
1) when you say wrapping around the center shaft. Would that be the picture i attached, where the outer arms don't touch the dough, but the inside paddle of the dough hook goes through the dough while kneading ?
2) when do you achieve a light windowpaning ? after the initial 2 minutes, after the 30-40 min rest,  after the final mix or only after the last mix and hand treating a bit further ?
3) do you use bench flour during the hand tuning process ?
4) when you talk about a dough ball in the Bosch, will your dough form a ball and not be concentered around the center shaft ? As you can see in my picture the dough does not leave the center shaft and i think extended mixing time would not have changed it. I stopped the machine trying to push the dough down to be picked up by the arms, but the dough would again wrap around the center. I exclusively used the speed one.
Add. Info: I have the Bosch with the metal bowl and the arms are attached to the top of the shaft. The shaft also has two shark fin lookalikes closer to the ground.

Can you see from my description i did something wrong, or is it also the case for you, that only with manual intervention you will achieve a smooth structure and bit windowpaning. (i know from your youtube vids that you had this after the rest periods of 5 hours).
Maybe i am just expecting the machine to do more than possible ?
Thanks so much,
Martin

« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 03:51:37 AM by Martino1 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #192 on: September 27, 2011, 08:56:51 AM »
Dear Martin and others.  I should say at this point that I am not the forum expert on the Bosch Universal Mixer.   There are many members here who have been using this machine much longer than I have, so I hope they will jump in with their experience and opinions.  After doing a few experiments with the Bosch, I was introduced to the Tartine Bread book (via the forum) and subsequently spent many months exploring many variations of that technique.  I have only recently gone back to experimenting with the Bosch, so my experience with this machine is very limited at this point.   Having said that I will answer your questions as best as I can.  

I tried my new Bosch the first time this morning. I was hand mixing up to now and  recently achieved a smooth dough, windowpaning.
Now I am seeking to reproduce this with the Bosch or even improve.
I mixed up  70/30 HG/00 with a 60% hydration and 2.8% salt to totally 750grams of dough weight.
I followed the suggested procedure you have described before.


How long were you hand mixing for?  Can you give me a detail account of your process including rest periods involved?  I don't know the exact flours you are using and I also don't know if HG flours in Vietnam is similar to HG flour here in the US.  Assuming the protein content of your HG flour is 13-14% protein, a 60% hydration seems a bit low (I normally use a hydration of 70% for such a blend) for that blend BUT from the picture you provided, the dough looks on the wet side to me.  So i would bet that your HG flour is much lower in protein than what we get in the US.  Nothing wrong with high hydration doughs, but the bosch with it's standard plastic mixing bowl does not do well with high hydration doughs.  If you want to do high hydration doughs in the bosch, then you need to buy the metal mixing bowl with the mixing arms that come out the bottom of the bowl (not the top like the metal bowl and plastic bowl you have).  This bowl is made specifically for mixing dough only.
I don't have this metal dough bowl, but member dmaxdmax has reported that it does a good job with high hydration doughs.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15477.0  Reply #9 & #11

From your picture, you need to lower your hydration if you want the bosch with your current bowl to mix that dough.  Or do high hydration doughs by hand using your current methods.

Put in the water, dissolved the salt and then the flour (IDY distributed in the flour).
after the ingredients came together the mass concentrated around the center (see picture). gave it 30min rest. Pulled out the dough... it was very sticky. Gave it some stretch and folds. Put it back to the machine and had a 10 min more kneading.
To get it smooth i to it out of the machine and gave it more folds and kneaded it with my fist, adding a bit of bench flour and finally achieved the dough in the texture i wanted to achieve.

The dough was still sticky and not yet windowpaning at all even after 30min rest after initial mix and after the folds and 10min more machine work.(as opposed to my hand kneaded doughs). Only after THE LAST step of hand kneading it was maybe 5min more i got the supple texture.]Put in the water, dissolved the salt and then the flour (IDY distributed in the flour).
after the ingredients came together the mass concentrated around the center (see picture). gave it 30min rest. Pulled out the dough... it was very sticky. Gave it some stretch and folds. Put it back to the machine and had a 10 min more kneading.
To get it smooth i to it out of the machine and gave it more folds and kneaded it with my fist, adding a bit of bench flour and finally achieved the dough in the texture i wanted to achieve.

The dough was still sticky and not yet windowpaning at all even after 30min rest after initial mix and after the folds and 10min more machine work.(as opposed to my hand kneaded doughs). Only after THE LAST step of hand kneading it was maybe 5min more i got the supple texture
.

The reasons for your difficulty is probably due to several reasons.  First off, I think your dough is a bit wet as mentioned above.  2ndly, you are using "the small dough batch adaptor", the white sleeve that goes over the shaft that has the 2 small fins at the bottom.  That thing is worthless for making small batches and has the opposite effect.  It actually PREVENTS the making of small batches.  The 2 fins help hold the small batch of dough to the center shaft and prevents the dough from mixing.  I posted about this on page 1 in the first post.  

"After the initial mix, again I was surprise to see the dough get trapped in the middle wrapping itself around the small batch adapter (that slips over the central shaft of the bowl).  I decided to remove this small batch adapter and noticed that the dough bagan to be mixed and kneaded.   So at this point, I would say that the small batch adapter is useless.  I'll have to do a few more test, but the initial result was pretty convincing."


Member  Bobino414 also did the test and confirmed the findings on page 3 in reply #42.  My response in reply #43.

1) when you say wrapping around the center shaft. Would that be the picture i attached, where the outer arms don't touch the dough, but the inside paddle of the dough hook goes through the dough while kneading ?

Yes.  For small batches of dough to mix/knead properly it should remain in the bottom of the bowl and away from the center post.  For bigger batches, the dough will come in contact with the center post which is okay b/c the rest of it is still being mixed/kneaded.

2) when do you achieve a light windowpaning ? after the initial 2 minutes, after the 30-40 min rest,  after the final mix or only after the last mix and hand treating a bit further ?

Impossible to put a time on this b/c it varies with the flour and hydration and how much gluten has developed.  But generally speaking I do not mix until the dough is window paning.  That comes after a rest period of about 45m to an hour.  The window paning (gluten) will become ever so stronger, the longer the dough sits.  For your specific hydration of dough try this...

For now, leave the hydration the same.  Remove the small dough adaptor (white thing that slips over the center post).  After a 2 min mix on speed 1, let the dough rest for 45m to 1 hour.  Now do about 6-8 folds, not just a couple of times, but ball the dough up.  This should take more folds if your dough is wet as it is in the picture.  Then place the dough ball on the bottom against one of the arms and turn on the mixer.  It should mix and stay in the bottom of the bowl.  If it continues wrapping it self up in the center, then remove the dough and reball again, rest 5 min, reball again, and then back into the mixer.   It should work.  If it doesn't, I would lower your hydration further.  

3) do you use bench flour during the hand tuning process ?

No.  If you feel like you have to, it may be a sign that the dough is too wet to begin with and didn't have enough flour to begin with.  

4)....  What you have is the standard bowl made of metal instead of plastic, the white plastic small batch adaptor loaded onto the center post, then the mixing arms attached over that.  Remove the mixing arms, remove and keep (or toss) the small batch adaptor as you won't be using it again, then replace your mixing arms on top.   If the tips in response to your 2nd question don't help, then you either have to do high hydration doughs by hand or get the metal mixing bowl with the mixing arms that come out the bottom, or lower your hydration a bit.  

I hope that helps Martin,
Chau
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:32:55 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Martino1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #193 on: September 27, 2011, 12:58:41 PM »
Dear Martin and others.  I should say at this point that I am not the forum expert on the Bosch Universal Mixer. There are many members here who have been using this machine much longer than I have, so I hope they will jump in with their experience and opinions.  

Dear Chau, disclaimer well noted. Luckily there is a lot of good knowledge out there and everyone decides what to believe, and the statements you make seem logical to me. Your experience through experiments i read with great interest and appreciate it a lot, Hoping i can also give a bit back some time to this forum.

Considering the Bosch I think this thread will be the best place to discuss how to tweak to top performance. Of course I hope other members will share their experience especially in the beginning using the Bosch (Andre ?)

How long were you hand mixing for?  Can you give me a detail account of your process including rest periods involved?

With before I meant since the last half a year intensively and 20 years occasionally but never seriously dealt with it. The last successful development was, when i continuously added some part of the flour to cold water during 10mins using my hands like a fork until the flour was incorporated. then 30 min rest and then kneaded 10 min more. The result was a almost chewing gum texture, whitened in colour, very homogenuous.

I got the Bosch yesterday and followed your method then, incl. Rest periods. I hope i understood your question correctly.

  I don't know the exact flours you are using and I also don't know if HG flours in Vietnam is similar to HG flour here in the US.  Assuming the protein content of your HG flour is 13-14% protein, a 60% hydration seems a bit low


I use 70% Bobs Red mill american flour with 12.5% Protein, Thoroughly blended with 30% of Divella Red Italian 00 Pizza flour with 10.5%, so the protein content shold be 11.9%. (Divella is the one used by the italian host as well which published the hand mixing videos under the name notturnoitaliano)
When mixing by hand 60% seem to be ok and i wanted to start trying out the Bosch with a max 60% hydration, since i understood that the Bosch rather has an issue with high hydration doughs ?!

(I normally use a hydration of 70% for such a blend) for that blend BUT from the picture you provided, the dough looks on the wet side to me.  So i would bet that your HG flour is much lower in protein than what we get in the US.


I guess it is bread rather than super HG flour (on the website i saw 12.5 %). The dough was indeed sticky and asking for more flour on the bench.

Nothing wrong with high hydration doughs, but the bosch with it's standard plastic mixing bowl does not do well with high hydration doughs.  If you want to do high hydration doughs in the bosch, then you need to buy the metal mixing bowl with the mixing arms that come out the bottom of the bowl (not the top like the metal bowl and plastic bowl you have).  This bowl is made specifically for mixing dough only.
I don't have this metal dough bowl, but member dmaxdmax has reported that it does a good job with high hydration doughs.


I have the Metal bowl, but the arms are attached at the top as yours I think. My main focus is achieving consistent good results with 60% and move upwards from there, so this should be fine for the Bosch acc. To our members experience. No plan to do even higher hydration before not having the basics correct first.

From your picture, you need to lower your hydration if you want the bosch with your current bowl to mix that dough.  Or do high hydration doughs by hand using your current methods.
...
The reasons for your difficulty is probably due to several reasons.  First off, I think your dough is a bit wet as mentioned above.


I thought 60%is a "ok" hydration ratio for 11.9% Protein, but i will try with a lower hydration ratio. The problem seems that one arm is curling up the dough quite quickly around the center shaft and then there is NO OTHER ARM OR PADDLE pushing it back to the arms/bowl bottom. I stop the machine, push the dough back in the planetary circle many times where the arms could grab it, but with some turns it curls back to center shaft.

  2ndly, you are using "the small dough batch adaptor", the white sleeve that goes over the shaft that has the 2 small fins at the bottom.  That thing is worthless for making small batches and has the opposite effect.  It actually PREVENTS the making of small batches.  The 2 fins help hold the small batch of dough to the center shaft and prevents the dough from mixing.  I posted about this on page 1 in the first post.  

Thanks for this. I read that you ordered it separately from breadtopia. since it came with my machine as a standard i didn't realise this item was the small dough adapter, which i never ordered after reading your experience. Will not use it from now on.

For small batches of dough to mix/knead properly it should remain in the bottom of the bowl and away from the center post.  For bigger batches, the dough will come in contact with the center post which is okay b/c the rest of it is still being mixed/kneaded.

That is my main problem. I tried one other small batch of 500g total mass just now and the problem repeats. The dough even if pushed back to the bottom in a few turns it will curl up and then it seems there is hardly any motion, because none of the three arms is really grabbing the dough.

...

For now, leave the hydration the same.  Remove the small dough adaptor (white thing that slips over the center post).  After a 2 min mix on speed 1, let the dough rest for 45m to 1 hour.  Now do about 6-8 folds, not just a couple of times, but ball the dough up.  This should take more folds if your dough is wet as it is in the picture.  Then place the dough ball on the bottom against on of the arms and turn on the mixer.  It should mix and stay in the bottom of the bowl.  If it continues wrapping it self up in the center, then remove the dough and reball again, rest 5 min, reball again, and then back into the mixer.   It should work.  If it doesn't, I would lower your hydration further.  

I did reball one timeand placed it in the arms. Will try to reball continuously to see the effect until i reach the first satisfying result, then move forward from there. My feeling is that the 500g was too low this second time and the small batch adapter was the problem the first time. I cannot imagine its the hydration ratio at 60%, since everyone seems to handle 65% hydration in the Bosch.

Thanks for the great support Chau and the time you are devoting to the community.

The next batch I will try
- with 50/50 flour blend,
- increase to 750g dough mass to make sure the arms grab it
- lower hydration to 58%,
- I will put the flower first before the water
- definitely not use the small batch adapter
- after initial mix and 45 min rest, Ball the dough up until kneaded in the bowl and not dragged around the center

One last thing i noticed: the paddle formed arm is not able to srape the dough off the center post and the outer hooks are basically going around the dough, so technically nothing can push the dough. The small batch adapter decreases distance between post and paddle, so technically should scrape the dough back into the moving trail of the arms. what made the adapter useless in your opinion. The two fins at the bottom ? The diameter enlargement should have a positive effect ?!

Thanks again. I will report my experience after the modifications. In case you have ideas whats happening: greatlt appreciated.
martin
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 01:07:54 PM by Martino1 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #194 on: September 27, 2011, 02:51:01 PM »
Martin, one thing I forgot to ask you is how you are measuring out your ingredients.  Are you using volume measurements or are you using a digital scale?

If you are using a digital scale and measuring accurately, then 60% hydration should be just fine for a 12% protein flour.  At 12% protein, the picture of your dough just looks too wet to be a 60% hydration.  It looks closer to a 66% or more.  Also the humidity is higher there in Vietnam compared to New Mexico, so that could very well play a big role.  I bet your flour is not as dry as my flour.

You may also try a 700-800gm batch.  I have notice that with the bigger batches, the weight of the dough tends to hold it down better.

Saying the small batch adaptor is useless is a bit harsh.  It may be that I haven't learned how to use it properly.   I tried it once and it didn't seem to work as advertise.  I then removed it and the dough was mixing much better.  Bob confirmed the finding, and I have been mixing dough successfully without it since then.

Sounds like your plan is a good one.  Looking forward to your results.

Chau

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #195 on: September 27, 2011, 03:05:34 PM »
Also the humidity is higher there in Vietnam compared to New Mexico, so that could very well play a big role.  I bet your flour is not as dry as my flour.

Jackie makes a good point.  It is easy to forget, or just neglect, how much humidity in the air can affect making a dough.  For example, it can get fairly humid here where I live, so I normally don't go above a 58% hydration, otherwise the dough is just too sticky for me to handle.  To compensate, you'll just have to cut back a few % on the hydration and perhaps try a few experiments before getting it to come out the consistency you want it, and/or make certain future storage of your flour is airtight.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Martino1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #196 on: September 27, 2011, 08:40:37 PM »
Chau,
You might make a very.....very........... I would say very valid point here.
Being so concentrated on the procedures I totally neglected this factor (even after viewing the pros videos which iterate the factor humidity) - thinking that it will not impact me, cause i will go by feel when hand kneading, but now i am trying to mix per machine.

Here it is a relative high, definitely higher humidity than in New Mexico. I'm sitting in the kitchen right now where also the flour is in a cupboard and i close the flour bags with tape after using. However, they might always picking up humidity when using them, leaving them open and they are not always stored in a plastic container. Not to forget now its the rainy season here.

The thermometer now shows 79.6% humidity and 27.3C or 81F. I guess this is pretty humid.
I know from handmixing and calculating that in my usual batch of 3*250=750g,  15g of flour don't seem a lot in your hands but decrease hydration ratio by 1.9% (i usually hold back a bit of flour to see how much i could increase the hydration and still achieve a workable result).

I always measure out the ingredients with a digital scale. in order to measure the IDY, i just got a 1/100g accurate scale in addition. i have to look what is available as know how about humidity impact on dough, I was so puzzled and asking how others can even handle 65% hydration.
ME also makes a point to store the ingredients airtightly. The importers store the flour wrapped in plastic bags (the divella normally comes in a paper bag), but they will be saturated in my house and you never know on the transport, before the importer puts them in a plastic wrap.

the dough mass of 500g seem to be so low, that no arm can touch it, so once it is in that position it won't move, because no arm to grab it. One word to the small dough adapter. I have to test it again, but the dough adapter was designed to do two things:
- it splits the dough with the fins, just under the inner paddle
- it enlarges the center post and decreases the cavity between inner paddle and shaft by half (by ca 4mm)
Especially this second point should help to move the curled up dough back to the bowl, so
the concepts seems right, but it didn't help me with the first 750gbatch. It also spins around the center. I am tempted to cut away the fins to only achieve the larger diameter in the center post  >:D but not before i have not tried a bit harder and can explain whats happening, hehe.


I hope I can try it out again soon, but i have to eat a lot of Pizza soon to use the dough  :-D not to forget my wife going into labour anytime soon.

Thanks Chau, Mad Ernie

« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:12:41 PM by Martino1 »
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Offline Martino1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #197 on: September 27, 2011, 09:28:30 PM »
Will read through poosts on this forum, there are quite a few about humidity.
maybe i can develop a rule of thumb for myself.

http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm

Is interesting.

As a general rule, water absorption capacity increases by 1 to 1.5 percent of flour weight for each 1-percent increase in protein level. So the higher the protein level, the greater a flour’s water absorption capacity. In addition, a flour’s water absorption capacity is affected by the quality of protein, with higher quality protein absorbing more water than lower quality protein does. Finally, an overly dry flour—one that has been stored for a period in a room below 60 percent relative humidity—will have a moisture content below 12 percent and, as a result, will absorb a percent or two more water.

I assume in the transportation, storage at moist room condition in the shop and in my house as well as leaving it open during procedure might have an impact. If this changes the required hydration level by say 2% it is a lot.

Mmhh have to try it, theory won't help here i guess. Maybe at least for the flours i am using i can develop a rule of thumb....

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative to the Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606220400/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 12:51:06 PM by Pete-zza »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #198 on: September 27, 2011, 09:43:53 PM »
Martin,

On the matter of humidity, you might check out Reply 405 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg101362/topicseen.html#msg101362.

Peter

Offline Martino1

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Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #199 on: September 28, 2011, 03:12:57 AM »
Thanks Peter, you are like air for this forum. Everywhere and essential to exist ;)

I read through those posts, looking at Tom Lehmanns comments to member barelli and from what i take:
Next to the protein level, also the humidity of the flour plays a role, but not a dominating one.
Humidity should rather be a concern for "flour hygene".
as a rule of thumb for me: i would lower the hydration ratio by 1 to 2 % to compare it to hydration of dough in a drier climate ( from 50RH to the 80H i have here).
Of course we should always see how the dough feels and develops, potentially by gradually adding flour.

If i take the dough out, fold it and put back a couple of times, i might achieve it, but if i had to do this consistently, then the benefit of the machine to me is rather limited.

I have the feeling my probs are not only related to the physics of the dough, but to the mechanical motion of the mixer. i will make further tests to see if i can implement a change to this routine.

@chau
I probably also will start adding all the flour first and then the liquid. During hand mixing i always did it the opposite way, to be able to max my hydration by holding back some of the flour and just gradually adding enough that the dough feels right (basically i took the bench flour out of the total flour).
In the machine this constant checking is not so easy possible, and once curled up its difficult to add more flour in.

If i add lets say the liquid to the flour until 56 % hydration and then add the rest of the water gradually, I might see the point where the dough is too wet and will curl up around the center shaft. Then i also confirmed the reason being a potential overwet dough for my humidity level.

I'll keep you updated. Until then THANKS !
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)