Author Topic: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments  (Read 36368 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3063
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #200 on: September 29, 2011, 11:46:09 AM »
something else to consider....   I have found that to get a dough that feels exactly the same out of the bosch vs hand mixing (or even another mixer such as my sp5 spiral) I need to drop the hydration on the bosch by a few points.  With most flours, 2-3 points lower is about right.      Im not sure exactly why this happens, but when I compensate it still has the nice big voids, the same stretch, and the crumb of a wetter dough.    

Also....why do such small batches?    maybe your only into room temp doughs, but if thats not the case try a larger batch and tiny amounts of yeast.    You can keep doughs in your fridge for weeks and pull them out as you need them.  I use tiny amounts of yeast, a nice slow room temp ferment for the first batch, AND throw some in the fridge for down the road.    Also, flour is cheap! maybe you can just throw some away.   good luck!    


Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #201 on: September 29, 2011, 12:39:01 PM »
Thanks Guys.
in the meantime i did a third batch:
750 g total dough weight, done without the small batch adaptor and at 80% rel. Humidity.
I usually use around 0,05%- 0,08% yeast, since room temp here around 85 degrees F.
I measured the water at 60% Hydration And then i withheld 10g, so startet with approx 56% and during the stepwise mixing process put all in and after this 10 g extra until 64%. I checked how the dough developed at different stages.
I am also using cold water and dissolve the salt in it.
This time i started with the flour first, then turned on speed 1 and gradually added the water (except 4% of the flour weight, so 56% hydration for my surrounding).

1) The dough came well together, but then seemed to be dragged by one arm around in the circle. It was fairly dry and not curling up the center. However the flour at the ground made it slide around in circle and not really been turned and kneaded intensively.
2) i then added 2-3% of water (bakers %) and it took a bit to be absorbed, which was due to adding the water later, but after a minute the dough became softer and more sticky. The flour at the bottom was gone creating more resistance to the dough, which improved the kneading activity.
3) added more water to around 60%. Also stopped the mixer and gave it a fold and put it back in. i would say at 60% it was kneading farely well.
4) added more water gradually until 62-63% hydration, when the dough became sticky and curled up he center post. Also tried the small batch adaptor again, but can confirm Chaus opinion hat the small adapter doesnt bring a benefit. I might cut the flaps away. I think this would Prevent the fins to catch the dough, but the larger diametr of the center post could reduce the gap to the inner paddle arm nd then finally add value.
Then rest period, 4 minutes more and then some more kneading and folds and the dough was sticky but workable and nicely hydated. I would say i am on a good way even i have to work a bit with it.

my observations and without scientific guarantee :
- smallest batch of dough should be 600-700g. 400 g did not work for me, since it seems to be too small for the arms ( my normal batch is 750g only since i am most of the time eating pizza alone). Once over the testing phas ei will do 1 kg batches (scott  ;) )
- adding the flour first will enable me to add water by feel. If i put water first the dough keeps curling around the center shaft and if you add flour then, there is no movement in the dough, which would pick up the added flour which is on the ground of the bowl.
- i am thinking how to enlage the diameter of center post to around 6.7 cm. This would leave a small gap only and most of the dough should be constantly removed from the center shaft. If this would be possible i think this would solve the higher hydration issue
- the Bosch seem to work better with spped 2 and 3 due to higher speed and centrifugal forces. I tried with the dough for 10 minutes. The dough hardly got warmer even in ambient 85degrees. From a friction point of view it seems no problem. what would speed do otherwise ? Surely this is not a minimal knead technique, but as long as the gluten is not yet fully developed i dont seem t mind
- resting periods are helpful. I did a 30 minutes rest after the initial 2 minutes.

scott, I have three doughs tonite available, three balls frozen, three balls in the fridge and a bulk cold ferment now 36 hours. Tonite i had a blend of cheapo vietnamese flour, 13.7% protein blended with 00 flour.
Interesting, vietnam having been a french colony, they have great baguettes and white bread, but no fresh yEast. Anyways the Italian starters arrived from Ed Wood yesterday... Can't wait to activate the ischia.

thanks again for your patience, hope i am not too lengthy.

Martin









« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:48:31 PM by Martino1 »
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #202 on: September 29, 2011, 01:06:09 PM »
70/30 HG/00 at ca 64 %. cold ferment 16h, balled and 8 hours at 85F.
The dough was sticky but still good to work with. Have to experiment a bit more, but these were nice pies. Crunchy yet soft and moist rim, good pies consideringng the cheapo flour. baked at 380C in my bbq setup.
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #203 on: September 29, 2011, 01:14:14 PM »
Nice job Martin and nice looking pies. The smallest doughball I have mixed in the bosch is 343gm.  Not that you want to do that, but it's good to know the upper and lower batch limits.

Chau

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #204 on: September 29, 2011, 08:58:03 PM »
Thanks Chau,
Do you recall the hydration at the 343batch ?
BTW i noticed that one of the three arms pulls the dough and wraps it around the post at higher hydration. After this, the arms will not grab it anymore. Literally like wrapping a scarf around the neck.

When the hydration was low and the mass formed and there is remaining flour at the ground, I see the dough bob-sleighing (hope that word is correct).

conclusion for me is that it matters to start with flour first. Later if the ball is formed, the added Flour might not be picked up and will prevent the dough from being mixed and rather pushed (at speed 1) or manual intervention is needed to incorporate.

Just in case anyone is interested in my findings :P anyhow i will dolarger batches after the testing phase
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #205 on: September 29, 2011, 11:30:51 PM »
For those who missed it, Martin, you made a very important point here.  When the hydration is too high, the dough gets wrapped up along the center post.  When the dough is too dry, it gets pushed around the bowl and doesn't get mixed.  So there would seem to be an ideal range of hydration for a given flour that works best in the Bosch.  You can find that range by either adding more flour or water and then figure out that exact hydration range formyour specific dough.

Martin, the hydration of that batch was 68% using a 75/25 BF/HG blend.  But let me say again, this number means very little as the hydration of a dough can be influence by a whole host of factors like, protein content, age of flour, salt %, environmental factors like altitude, humidity levels, and seasonal differences, etcetera, etc.  

Anyways, it sounds like you are getting it worked out though.  I'll see about posting the video I made of that dough ball being mixed.

BTW, do you know about how long your pies baked for?  

Chau
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 12:18:31 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Location: Between Houston and Mexico
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #206 on: September 29, 2011, 11:48:21 PM »
Just in case anyone is interested in my findings :P anyhow i will dolarger batches after the testing phase

I am interested in your findings with the Bosch.  Please document your results.  :chef:
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #207 on: September 30, 2011, 12:09:21 AM »
Hi Chau,
The pies were baked 4 minutes, because i lowered the temp of the stone to 370C/700F degrees, but the last minute i was under the pie with my peel to hold it up (mini doming). I did a 2 minutes pie before, but will end up with a more soft center, bit neapolitanish, so My target is rather to go more for a center that doesn't flop. I had quite a few bubbles and i could see individual bubbles pushing to the rim.
the rear burner gives me the chance to brown the top very quickly close to a large flame and it creates immediate spring. when the stone temp gets too hot, the underside burns, so i think the sweetspot for my device is 700F. I will probably bake it longer to give it a more even browning by lowering to 350C and lower the flame of the rear burner. If I need instant heat i can always go full with the rear burner any time.

BTW
I might try next time to add something to the dough like some little balls, which can later be easily removed, but maybe increase the total mixing volume, thus being grabbed easier by the arms, maybe ping pong balls or something else (hygenic) :D
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 12:19:03 AM by Martino1 »
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #208 on: September 30, 2011, 12:20:50 AM »
I am interested in your findings with the Bosch.  Please document your results.  :chef:

Thanks Gene, I am also interested in your incredible builds... How is the oven and forkmixer cominng along  :) ?
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3063
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2011, 06:17:03 AM »
When the dough is too dry, it gets pushed around the bowl and doesn't get mixed.  So there would seem to be an ideal range of hydration for a given flour that works best in the Bosch.  



I have found that I can get the hydration quite a bit lower by turning on the machine for 10-20 seconds to partially incorporate the flour/water, then wait about 20 minutes and start the machine again.   Doing this I have been able to get down to 55% hydration.    I usually stay in the 60-66% range, but its nice to know you can go lower if you want to.  

« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 06:18:58 AM by scott r »


Offline Bobino414

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 288
  • Location: Florida
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #210 on: October 01, 2011, 12:35:48 AM »
This post is to respond to the comment re: dough wrapping around center post.

I have been using the Bosch for about 1 year.  Purchase was based on comments by scottr.

Typically I use 270-810g HG.  63% hydration.  I live in a very humid environment.

At first I started by adding water to bowl, then dissolve the salt and yeast.  This was followed by slowly  adding the flour on speed #1.  Although this order satisfies the idea of improving hydration of the flour, invariably the dough would start to come together and wrap itself around the center post.  So I would have to stop the machine, reposition the dough, turn on the machine again and in about 5 seconds stop the machine and reposition the dough again and again.  This was a royal pain.

Enter heresy-I now place the flour, salt, and idy in the bowl and stir for a few seconds(this is only effective with larger batches).  On speed #1 water is very slowly added to the bowl; the water is drizzled along and around the center post.  It takes about 30 seconds to add all the water.  When the dough is mostly together I mix for another 5 minutes.  What I have gained from this method is that I no longer fight with the dough hugging the center post.  Based on the end product, I do not feel I have ineffectively hydrated the flour.

Bob

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #211 on: October 01, 2011, 07:54:06 AM »
speed #1 water is very slowly added to the bowl; the water is drizzled along and around the center post.  It takes about 30 seconds to add all the water.  When the dough is mostly together I mix for another 5 minutes.  What I have gained from this method is that I no longer fight with the dough hugging the center post.  Based on the end product, I do not feel I have ineffectively hydrated the flour.

Bob

Good to hear and thank you for your response Bob.
i also experienced in my trials, that the Bosch should get the flour in FIRST and i also slowly added the water around the bowl which helped.

I want to state that In my few tests the results were finally always good, but saving the pain of scraping the dough from the center post and too many manual interventions can be reduced by the method you describe. I will make further experiments.
Did anyone try to cut the side flaps from the small dough adapter ? I bet it would then a
ctually help for small dough. Still theory, but i will try even if it hurts >:D
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:56:14 AM by Martino1 »
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #212 on: October 01, 2011, 08:38:55 AM »
Great tip Scott!

Just FYI Martin, I regularly add the flour (or dry ingredients) first as well and then the liquid is poured slowly down the sides of the center post or wall.  However the order can be flipped, it just depends on your dough formulation and preference.  Everyone, should do what works best for their recipe and technique.  I have done it with water first plenty of times with good results.   Just wanted people to know there is not a wrong and right way when it comes to the order.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 08:45:13 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #213 on: October 01, 2011, 10:28:16 AM »
Chau,
You are right that everyone has to find the best way and as you rightfully pointed out there are always some factors different and even precisely described, one might still do it differently.

I tried two times the same formulation, once flour first and once water first.
I might have done something else different, but my observation that i want to share with you was that the dough did not stick to the center when i had the flour first. I could surely be wrong being a newbie to the Bosch.

I just always try to find a credible explanation for failures.... :-\
My (potentially wrong) theory is that there is a point in hydration, when the dough gets curled up.
A) if water goes in first, the hydration will drop while adding the flour (edited) and mixing and the mass goes from batter to dough. At one point (which are actually a few seconds), the dough will be so highly hydrated that the arm wraps it around. No chance to incorporate the remaing flour i have, cause the dough is not moving as it is tightly wrapped. (decreasing hydration)
Opposed to
B) flour goes first and will be gradually hydrated until reaching the target hydration (hydration increasing) However while mixing it will never be a overly wet or batter-like mass, thus not being curled up. What could happen with this method is that there is a lot of uncompiled flour at the bottom of the bowl causing the previously mentioned sliding of the dough mass.

A) for me is a wanted effect during handmixing, since then i want to lower the hydration and put in only so much flour, that the dough feels right (soft and just left the overly sticky stage).

but as said, everyone should get familiar and as Scott said, going to higher dough mass could make it irrelevant.

The Bosch is a great mixer and i have achieved a really supple (most heard word to describe a good feeling) dough. I feel the need to stress this, so that nobody gets a wrong impression.

This is a very valuable thread for me personally  :)


 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 10:51:06 AM by Martino1 »
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline DonC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Southwest Michigan
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #214 on: October 05, 2011, 10:58:05 AM »
I've had our Bosch for about a year now,I'm very,very glad I replaced our broken KitchenAid with it rather than another KA after doing some online research.
 I certainly don't claim to have the skills of others here but I'll give my feedback,I've certainly enjoyed reading others.
 I use mine about once a week for bread/pizza and have developed(and simplified) my technique to where I only make fairly large batches,enough for at least 2 bread loafs or 3 or 4 big pizzas.That hasn't been an inconvenience for us,we love fresh bread and give the 2nd loaf away frequently and having a batch of "aged"pizza dough in the fridge makes it easy to make really good and fast pizza.I'll get 4-5 approx.10-12"pizza's over a week to 10 days from a batch.
  I've found that when I have a large enough batch and then hit the wet/dry point(highly scientific term LOL),it's really obvious when the Bosch is mixing well.So I don't bother with small batches and I almost always add a little flour to bread recipes before it will mix properly.

Offline jp10558

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #215 on: October 28, 2011, 05:38:41 PM »
For those interested in smaller batches - and unlike bread, when I do try out Pizza dough, I'll probably be looking to make one or two pizzas at a time - has anyone considered the new small dough blade for the Bosch Universal slicer/shredder...? I'm thinking about getting it as it's not very expensive (as I already have the slicer shredder) and will be seeing how well it does with kneading . . .

Offline steel_baker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 180
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Western Pennsylvania
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #216 on: November 29, 2011, 08:58:25 PM »
I do three 409g batches of flour at 67-68% hydration in my Bosch UP every week with no issues. Yes, the dough does wrap around the center post but that just seems to serve to stretch it. I set the bowl onto my scale and weigh everything in using the following order; water, sugar, oil, flour salt, IDY.

I then place the bowl onto the mixer, put the dough hook & covers on, then pulse until it forms a single dough ball. At this point, I let it rest for 15 mins, then I knead for 6-8 mins at low speed. During kneading, I basically turn it on, set a timer, and walk away until the timer goes off. I've never seen the need for small batch devices or anything to keep the dough from creeping up the center shaft.

My dough seems to come out perfect every time, absolutely silky. Here is the video I put up on the thread I started covering the style of pizza that I make. It demonstrates how I put the dough together.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-yJ7sdzWTg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-yJ7sdzWTg</a>
steel_baker  :chef:

Offline tinroofrusted

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1232
  • Location: OC, CA
  • Experimenting....
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #217 on: November 29, 2011, 09:15:18 PM »
I've had our Bosch for about a year now,I'm very,very glad I replaced our broken KitchenAid with it rather than another KA after doing some online research.

Is the Bosch a bit quieter than the Kitchen Aid? I find the Kitchen Aid to be very loud. I sometimes wonder if there is something wrong with it, because it has such a whine, especially when you get it up past medium speed. 

Offline Bobino414

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 288
  • Location: Florida
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #218 on: November 29, 2011, 09:53:13 PM »

The Bosch Universal on speed # 1 measures 78 db while my KA 6 qt 575 watts on speed # 2 (which KA recommends) measures 79 db.  These measurements were made without a load.  With a load of 1300 grams or greater the KA starts to bog down so it makes a sick put me out of my misery sound but it is not louder.

Bob

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Bosch Universal Plus Experiments
« Reply #219 on: November 29, 2011, 10:30:27 PM »
I just bought an antique K45 kitchen aid mixer off of CL.  It is decidedly quieter than my Bosch with a 500gm batch of dough.  But I only mix with the C hook on speed 1 or 2 versus speed 1 on the Bosch.

Chau