Bosch Universal Plus Experiments

[scott r]

I have been reading lots of good reviews of the new mini dough hook for the slicer/shredder attachment for the bosch.   It is made for smaller batches, and supposedly it is better for higher hydrations.    

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO28JOpc38M&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO28JOpc38M&amp;feature=related</a>

they have also bundled it with a small bowl if you dont need the slicer shredder for $75

[widespreadpizza]

Scott missed this.  how much is just the hook?   did you get it?  I have the slicer shredder,  love that thing!  -Marc

[kneader65]

I have been a bosch universal owner for couple of months now and must say I have been less than happy with its performance.My dough batch is usually around 1700 gm(flour 1000gms(11%protein),water 600 ml,oil 50 ml,salts,ugar and yeast 50gm).I usually add the entire flour first and and then slowly add the liquid ingredients.In all the instances I have not managed to get the dough to ball during the kneading.The dough just wraps on the centre shaft and does not get kneaded by the arms.I have tried taking out the dough and doing stretch and fold and putting it back in. I have allowed auolyse periods ranging from 30 minutes to 60 minutes and that does not help either.I have also tried spraying oil onto the shaft to keep the dough from sticking  and that gets dissolved into the dough in no time and the dough stubbornly clings onto the shaft again.A few posts on the internet seem to suggest that you need to add in the water first and then add flour until it tends to leave the sides of the bowl but this method plays havoc with the hydration level and therefore I would not bee too keen on it.

I would like some honest feedback from you guys as to whether you have faced this problem and found any means to resolve it.Should I dump Bosch and move onto a planetary spiral hook type mixer?Alternatively will the stainless steel bowl from Bosch without the centre shaft help?Look forward to your feed backs.

[steel_baker]

Love my BUP. It has been an amazing machine for me. My typical batch of dough for a single tray of pizza is a bit over 700 grams. I always add water first, followed by oil, salt, flour, then yeast. I pulse until it comes together into a ball, let rest for 15 mins, then knead for 8 mins. I just put the mixing bowl on a scale and weigh everything into it, the put it on the mixer base.

The dough should wrap around the center shaft as that is the stretching portion of the kneading. Don't quite understand though why your dough isn't coming together.     Mine always comes out smooth as silk.

[widespreadpizza]

Kneader,  you have to add the water first,  then,  do as steel says above.  What flour are you using?  Do you have an absorption rating for it?  -marc

[kneader65]

Kneader,  you have to add the water first,  then,  do as steel says above.

Logically whether water goes in first or flour goes in first should not make a difference.That is my view unless someone can convince me why the sequence is important.

[henkverhaar]

Logically whether water goes in first or flour goes in first should not make a difference.That is my view unless someone can convince me why the sequence is important.

Try it and you'll see. Can't speak for the Bosch, but in the DLX it makes a huge difference. In a KA or food processor, you start with flour/dry ingredients and add water to the required consistency, for a satisfactory result. If you do that with an Electrolux DLX/Assistent/enter-your-favorite-name-for-this-machine, you'll run into all sorts of mishap. Start with liquids and add flour, and you get a beautiful dough. With dough preparation it's not just the final recipe that counts but also what happens during mixing. Different ways of mixing and kneading will result in doughs with different qualities. And some of the procedures may in fact be irreversible...

[Pete-zza]

Logically whether water goes in first or flour goes in first should not make a difference.That is my view unless someone can convince me why the sequence is important.

kneader65,

As I noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15453.msg152196/topicseen.html#msg152196, there are many ways to skin the cat, and that can vary depending on whether you are talking about a professional setting or a home setting and maybe even the type of dough you are trying to make. Several years ago, when I was an innocent and new to pizza making, at least from the standpoint of the science and technical aspects of pizza making, I postulated that it made more sense to add the flour first and the water later. I said this at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2141.msg18927.html#msg18927. As you can see from David's post that followed (Reply 16), his understanding was that professional Italian pizza makers added the water first in 90% of the cases. Marco later chimed in on this matter, quite vociferously, at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2141.msg18972.html#msg18972. Usually when a number is above 90%, there is a good reason for it. But I will allow that maybe that doesn't apply or extend to all home mixers, a possibility that I duly noted in paragraph 8 of Reply 1 referenced above.

Peter

[widespreadpizza]

Kneader,  do not have a concrete answer for you,  but I was BS with that mixer the first time I used it so I read the manual.  Wet first,  cured.  In fact,  go wet to dry,  100 percent of your recipe in at the same time before mixing,  put on  the cover and go to town.  It will do the rest for you nicely if you give a rest after combining.  If you are determined to not like it you never will.  -Marc

[kneader65]

Many thanks Peter and Marc for your very valuable responses.I do take your point that if 90% of professional pizza makers are adding water first,there must be a reason behind it.I would follow this method in my next batch and see if it that makes a difference to the  dough finish and quality.Peter once again thanks for digging up the threads to enlighten me!

[kneader65]

An update:
I tried the "liquid first" mixing method  on the Bosch with a batch consisting of 1000 gm all purpose flour(10.8% protein),600ml water,3 gm yeast,20 gm salt,20 gm sugar and 50 ml oil.I added all the liquid ingredients except oil into the bowl and started the mixer on speed 1.Then  added flour slowly taking about 2 minutes approximately.A slurry first formed and then turned into a sticky and moderately stiff mass.This time I omitted the autolyse step as I felt it made the dough "too soft" to knead and had a greater tendency to wrap on the centre shaft.The dough mass stayed at the bottom of the bowl and got kneaded by both the arms for about 5 minutes.Thereafter it started wrapping on the centre shaft.I started adding oil slowly along the centre shaft which helped to push the dough away towards the kneading arms.Around the 10 minutes mark the dough became very soft and shiny just the way I wanted.I stopped the kneading at 12 minutes.Did a few stretches and folds.It windowpaned OK with a few tears after a 30 minute rest.Did a cold rise for 24 hrs and the pizza tasted a lot better than before .

I would like to see the dough staying at the bottom of the bowl during the entire kneading process.For that to happen I may have to drop the hydration to around 55% for the flour I am using.I am coming around to the view that with the Bosch mixer you can not get hung up on the  hydration level much, as  proper kneading is the important thing and final hydration level needs to be accepted as a  a result.It is likely to be a few percentages lower than your target level.If hydration level is very important, a planetary mixer would be more suitable in my opinion.I am happy to be corrected by the more experienced on this forum.

[widespreadpizza]

Kneader,  also remember your 5% oil figure is almost acting like water.  For your 10.8 flour I am sure your 65%ish hydration ration is 5-10 percent higher than your flours rated absorption.  Also,  there is never a need to add your flour slowly with this mixer.  Just do it all at once and be done with it.  Lastly,  I think you would be better served adding your oil to the water.  I have never ever noticed a difference in outcome by when the oil is added.  Curious,  what type of dough is that recipe for?  -marc

[scott r]

I agree with marc, no benefit of adding slowly with this mixer... you will probably just end up with over mixed dough.    Just do a short burst to combine everything at first, then do the bulk of your mix after a rest.... or just rambo through it right from the get go.  either way works.   I have tested oil later in the mix vs. right with everything else, and again marc is correct, no difference.   Some of those mixing tricks work better with fork and planetary mixers... not this one.    Its simpy the most efficient combining machine there is (even over my spiral mixer and my old fork mixer)     With the bosch definitely try a dryer dough than what you are used to at first... just to see what it can do.    No need to mix very long, either.   good luck!