Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 43134 times)

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Online Matthew

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #140 on: February 01, 2011, 04:14:32 PM »
Thanks, Bro.

I'll see if I can find it locally. Thanks for the info.

Anytime buddy.  Saputo is a Cdn company located in Montreal.

Matt


Offline Essen1

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #141 on: February 01, 2011, 08:20:50 PM »
Anytime buddy.  Saputo is a Cdn company located in Montreal.

Matt


Matt,

They do sell their products here in the US, too, but I couldn't find the brand name you mentioned. Maybe Saputo sells it under a different name than in Canada?

http://www.saputo.com/world/brand.aspx?id=3007&langtype=4105
Mike

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Online Matthew

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #142 on: February 02, 2011, 06:04:42 AM »
Matt,

They do sell their products here in the US, too, but I couldn't find the brand name you mentioned. Maybe Saputo sells it under a different name than in Canada?

http://www.saputo.com/world/brand.aspx?id=3007&langtype=4105


Hey Mike,
Not sure buddy.  It's 20% M.F. & 52% moisture

Matt
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 06:07:57 AM by Matthew »

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #143 on: February 04, 2011, 05:59:58 PM »
Brian,
YOU ROCK!  It was nothing short of fabulous, thanks so much.

Matt

Sorry that I have been gone for a while... it happens in this crazy restaurant biz. Thanks, Matthew. I am glad you gave the formula a shot and enjoyed it.

B
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Tannerwooden

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2011, 12:32:25 AM »
WOW!

I told my wife, "Someone took over my post.  There's WAY more info there than can be necessary to answer the original question."  Now I see it's Brian himself.  And the info he provides is so detailed, so helpful, and so, so, so incredibly patient.

Brian, you are amazing.  Thank you so much for all your help and most of all for THE BEST PIZZA I'VE EVER HAD.

Tanner

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2011, 02:44:25 PM »
WOW!

I told my wife, "Someone took over my post.  There's WAY more info there than can be necessary to answer the original question."  Now I see it's Brian himself.  And the info he provides is so detailed, so helpful, and so, so, so incredibly patient.

Brian, you are amazing.  Thank you so much for all your help and most of all for THE BEST PIZZA I'VE EVER HAD.

Tanner

Wow! Thank you for the kind words, regarding my input and my pizza. Glad to be here and glad to contribute, however possible.

As a side note, I've been getting some very inconsistent flour lately and I am talking to one of my distributors about bringing in some samples of Central Milling Flour. I am most interested in experimenting with the Bakers Craft flour.

I'll let you know my results after I get my hands on some.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Essen1

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2011, 04:25:46 PM »
Wow! Thank you for the kind words, regarding my input and my pizza. Glad to be here and glad to contribute, however possible.

As a side note, I've been getting some very inconsistent flour lately and I am talking to one of my distributors about bringing in some samples of Central Milling Flour. I am most interested in experimenting with the Bakers Craft flour.

I'll let you know my results after I get my hands on some.

Brian,

Are you talking about the Organic Artisan BC Flour or the malted version?

I got a 25lb bag from the not too long ago (unmalted) and found that it is an excellent choice for bread but not so much for pizza. But then again, my name's not Brian Spangler and you might experience different results given your expertise.

:chef:
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2011, 04:32:48 PM »
Brian,

Are you talking about the Organic Artisan BC Flour or the malted version?

I got a 25lb bag from the not too long ago (unmalted) and found that it is an excellent choice for bread but not so much for pizza. But then again, my name's not Brian Spangler and you might experience different results given your expertise.

:chef:

I want to play with both. What didn't you like about the flour when you made pizza?

If anybody else has recommendations for flour from Central Milling, let me know. I'd like to get a bunch of 25# bags from my distributor to play with.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Essen1

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2011, 05:37:30 PM »
I want to play with both. What didn't you like about the flour when you made pizza?

If anybody else has recommendations for flour from Central Milling, let me know. I'd like to get a bunch of 25# bags from my distributor to play with.


Brian,

The flour I used was the malted version.

When I used it it was in combination with another flour and the result was a pale, overly chewy crust. But back then I also had issues with my home oven so I'm sure that played a factor, too. I'd love to hear your take on the flour once you get it.

I will give it another shot since I'm planning to get another bag from Nick in Petaluma.

But if you look here, they also offer a pizza flour, which is new in the collection of flours.

http://www.centralmilling.com/newstuff.htm
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #149 on: February 08, 2011, 05:41:32 AM »
What an informative thread, thank you Brian.

A few more questions since we have you here.   Sorry if my numbers are off since I don't have a calculator in front of me.  From a quick look at the numbers Peter posted...

It looks like you do about a 50% preferment/poolish plus a bit of IDY (~0.05% of the flour weight) in the final dough.  What is the purpose of such a small amount of IDY in the final dough?  Why not just use the preferment/poolish alone for leavening purposes?

Also not sure if this has been asked already, but can you discuss your fermentation protocol?  How long is the poolish sitting at room temps until it's ready to use?  Are you still using it right at the brink of collapse to maximize the effects of the acids or are you using a younger poolish with the lower hydrated dough?   Also what temp and time frame are you fermenting the final dough with roughly 50% active poolish and a pinch of IDY?

Thank you so much,
Chau 


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #150 on: February 08, 2011, 10:08:59 AM »
Chau,

I normally don't put the baker's percents in the Final Mix presentation because the odd values tend to distort whatever is really happening. I left them in in this case for two reasons. First, it was the only way that I could use the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with a neat formatting of the Final Mix. Second, someone else can use those baker's percents to do the same thing for a different size and number of pizzas. If you look at the actual weights of the IDY, you will see that only 0.02 grams of IDY are used for the poolish (for the 18" size pizza) and 0.16 grams of IDY are used in the Final Mix. The two weights combined come to 0.18 grams, which is what is stated in the Total Formula.

Also, Brian chose to preferment 20% of the Total Formula Flour even though the weight of the poolish is 40% of the Total Formula Flour. I am sure Brian will be able to explain his fermentation protocol. Some of those details were provided earlier in this thread at Reply 41 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg123707.html#msg123707 but I'd also be interested to know whether Brian uses the break point of the poolish before using it or whether just operating off of the clock is good enough given the relatively stable ambient temperatures where Brian makes his dough.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #151 on: February 08, 2011, 10:26:00 AM »
Thanks Peter, the time frame matches the percetage of poolish use.  Chad Robertson also teaches a 20% poolish and a similar time frame in his bread book.  I'm sure a 20-30% poolish is very common in the baking world.   

Peter, do you know of the optimal time to use a poolish?  I'm sure there must be a window of usability as there is in pizza/bread dough, but have your read of any advantages versus disadvantages to using it at a particular stage? 

Thanks,
Chau


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #152 on: February 08, 2011, 11:01:01 AM »
Peter, do you know of the optimal time to use a poolish?  I'm sure there must be a window of usability as there is in pizza/bread dough, but have your read of any advantages versus disadvantages to using it at a particular stage? 


Chau,

Ideally, I suppose one would look for the break point since that reflects the full maturation point of the poolish. However, from what I have read, it is usually safe to use it for a few hours after reaching full maturation. Didier Rosada discusses these issues and what one might expect from using an under-matured or over-matured poolish in his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm from which I have excerpted the following:

The full maturation of the poolish can be recognized when it has domed slightly on the top and just begun to recede, creating on the surface some areas a little more concave.  A poolish that has not matured adequately does not provide the benefit of lower acidity; one that has over-matured can create other types of acidity which might affect the flavor of the final product.

It is better for the baker to opt for an overnight poolish if production and storage are adequate for two main reasons.   A longer poolish produces more favorable aromas, and a longer poolish requires less yeast, increasing the amount of time to use the poolish (up to 2 hours) without the poolish over-maturing.


Peter

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #153 on: February 08, 2011, 01:52:33 PM »
What an informative thread, thank you Brian.

A few more questions since we have you here.   Sorry if my numbers are off since I don't have a calculator in front of me.  From a quick look at the numbers Peter posted...

It looks like you do about a 50% preferment/poolish plus a bit of IDY (~0.05% of the flour weight) in the final dough.  What is the purpose of such a small amount of IDY in the final dough?  Why not just use the preferment/poolish alone for leavening purposes?

Also not sure if this has been asked already, but can you discuss your fermentation protocol?  How long is the poolish sitting at room temps until it's ready to use?  Are you still using it right at the brink of collapse to maximize the effects of the acids or are you using a younger poolish with the lower hydrated dough?   Also what temp and time frame are you fermenting the final dough with roughly 50% active poolish and a pinch of IDY?

Thank you so much,
Chau 

Peet-za already sorted the percentages out. 20% of the total flour is prefermented in the poolish overnight.

Since I have a 5 hour window to make pizzas, the formula is established to give me that window. If I only wanted to use preferment as the leavening, it would require more preferment, but since I would be prefermenting a higher percentage of the total flour, this would give me a shorter window in which to use the dough. That technique is better for baking bread, where you can capture the product at it's peak.

The poolish is started at 9:30 at night and is used to mix the final dough the next morning at 10:30. With our environment, the poolish is at it's peak and is not young or over fermented.

Final dough is brought to 80 degrees and has a bulk ferment of 3.5 hours, with stretch and folds every 45 min. After shaping it is approx. 3pm and we give the dough 2 hours before production to relax and go through the secondary fermentation. We sometimes have to through it in the cooler for 15 minutes or so, to give it a chill, right after shaping. This helps slow everything down if the dough is moving a little too fast. Last nights dough was about as good as it gets. It only had to spend 15 minutes in the walk in cooler 2 times over the 5 hour production. Some pizzerias have drawer coolers in the production area that keep the dough at 65 degrees or so, which helps maintain it over long production periods.

The yeast for this type of formula has to be very accurate for full blown pizza production. If you look back a few pages, the formula is there for you to follow... if you have a $250 scale that weighs to the hundredth or thousandth of a gram.  ;)
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #154 on: February 08, 2011, 01:57:39 PM »
I'd also be interested to know whether Brian uses the break point of the poolish before using it or whether just operating off of the clock is good enough given the relatively stable ambient temperatures where Brian makes his dough.

Peter

The poolish is at full maturation every morning at 10:30... like a train on time. We weigh the yeast down to a thousandth of a gram and use extremely accurate thermometers to temp the water and flour. Our ambient temperature is usually only +/- 1 degree.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #155 on: February 08, 2011, 02:21:33 PM »
Thank you Brian, that makes a lot of sense.   One more question.   Would you get a different product if you were to skip the stretch and folds and instead just extend your initial knead times to develop the gluten instead?  How important is it (to you) too develop the dough by hand as oppose doing it more with the Hobart and still bulk fermenting for 3 hours or so then divide and ball?  Understanding that you still would have opportunity to assess the dough during the balling stage and perhaps adding in some final folds then.  I guess what I am asking is, what is the advantage of doing it the way you currently do it?

Thank you,
Chau

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #156 on: February 08, 2011, 02:33:30 PM »
Thank you Brian, that makes a lot of sense.   One more question.   Would you get a different product if you were to skip the stretch and folds and instead just extend your initial knead times to develop the gluten instead?  How important is it (to you) too develop the dough by hand as oppose doing it more with the Hobart and still bulk fermenting for 3 hours or so then divide and ball?  Understanding that you still would have opportunity to assess the dough during the balling stage and perhaps adding in some final folds then.  I guess what I am asking is, what is the advantage of doing it the way you currently do it?

Thank you,
Chau

More development means tighter crumb and greater volume in the final product. It's easy to overmix with a machine and nearly impossible to do it by hand. If you want tighter crumb, mix away with a machine. If you want open crumb, ditch the machine all together and use your hands. When I make sourdough bread for personal use, I never use a mixer. I actually owned a bakery and I make hundreds of loaves of bread a day by hand, without the use of a mixer. Here at Apizza, we made our dough without a mixer for 4 years... until my body told me to stop. 10 years of mixing hundreds of pounds of dough without a machine finally caught up with me.

When you shape your dough, you are continuing to develop the gluten. It is essentially another stretch and fold.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #157 on: February 08, 2011, 02:40:43 PM »
If you want tighter crumb, mix away with a machine. If you want open crumb, ditch the machine all together and use your hands.

It is great to hear this from a professional. I have not turned on my mixer in over a month, and I am really enjoying the benefits. Brian, you have probably heard this over and over, but thank you for sharing your expertise.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2011, 02:50:03 PM »
Thanks Brian, I agree with you but would tend to think that it would be hard to overmix with your Hobart since it mixes so slow.  Well, maybe if you forgot it was going and went to take a nap or something like that.

The common assumption for newbies is that a mixer is required to make good pizza at home, so it's nice to see you advocate hand mixing.   

I would also add that when I use low protein flours in combination with a high hydration, it takes more time than I want to devote to making dough by hand so I prefer to use the mixer to shorten that time.  I did force myself to learn hand kneading for a year before buying a mixer though and glad that I did it that way.

Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #159 on: February 08, 2011, 08:35:25 PM »
We weigh the yeast down to a thousandth of a gram and use extremely accurate thermometers to temp the water and flour. Our ambient temperature is usually only +/- 1 degree.

Brian,

I find this revelation quite fascinating. I can appreciate how critical it can be in a commercial setting to get the yeast quantity and the prefermentation/fermentation temperatures just right, especially for a room temperature fermented dough and the narrow window within you must be able to use the dough to fill orders, but I wondered whether something happened that made it necessary to weigh the yeast to a thousandth of a gram and to use extremely accurate thermometers to measure the temperatures of the water and flour. For example, was the use of the highly accurate scale because of the small amount of poolish IDY, even with a total formula flour of 50 pounds? Assuming that 20% of the total formula flour is used for the poolish and that you start with a 50-lb bag of Harvest King flour, I calculate that the poolish IDY comes to 50 x 16 x 20% x 28.35 x 0.03264% = 1.481 grams. If my math is right, that is about a half-teaspoon. Wouldn't that be close enough?

Peter


 

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