Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 44806 times)

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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #160 on: February 08, 2011, 09:03:08 PM »
Brian,

I find this revelation quite fascinating. I can appreciate how critical it can be in a commercial setting to get the yeast quantity and the prefermentation/fermentation temperatures just right, especially for a room temperature fermented dough and the narrow window within you must be able to use the dough to fill orders, but I wondered whether something happened that made it necessary to weigh the yeast to a thousandth of a gram and to use extremely accurate thermometers to measure the temperatures of the water and flour. For example, was the use of the highly accurate scale because of the small amount of poolish IDY, even with a total formula flour of 50 pounds? Assuming that 20% of the total formula flour is used for the poolish and that you start with a 50-lb bag of Harvest King flour, I calculate that the poolish IDY comes to 50 x 16 x 20% x 28.35 x 0.03264% = 1.481 grams. If my math is right, that is about a half-teaspoon. Wouldn't that be close enough?

Peter


Consistency is key. You have too many variables at play already, and inaccurate measurements lead to inconsistency and reduced ability to problem solve. I'm not making pizza at home, I'm making them in a restaurant, where people demand, and I insist, on consistency.

Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2011, 11:15:18 PM »
Brian sorry if this has been asked or previously discussed, but the name (Apizza Scholls) what does it mean?  Who chose that name and why? Thanks.
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2011, 12:37:53 AM »
Brian sorry if this has been asked or previously discussed, but the name (Apizza Scholls) what does it mean?  Who chose that name and why? Thanks.

We used to be The Scholls Public House, when we started off in 2004 and we were in Scholls, OR. When we were forced to move , we wanted to keep Scholls in the name somehow, as we established a business and following that got us kicked out of our County for being "too busy". Apizza Scholls is a play on words... A Piece Of Scholls. Stupid? Yep! Unique and memorable? Hasn't hurt us so far  ;)
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2011, 12:41:10 AM »
We used to be The Scholls Public House, when we started off in 2004 and we were in Scholls, OR. When we were forced to move , we wanted to keep Scholls in the name somehow, as we established a business and following that got us kicked out of our County for being "too busy". Apizza Scholls is a play on words... A Piece Of Scholls. Stupid? Yep! Unique and memorable? Hasn't hurt us so far  ;)

I wondered the same thing. I think that's pretty cool.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2011, 12:46:56 AM »
Brian,

I find this revelation quite fascinating. I can appreciate how critical it can be in a commercial setting to get the yeast quantity and the prefermentation/fermentation temperatures just right, especially for a room temperature fermented dough and the narrow window within you must be able to use the dough to fill orders, but I wondered whether something happened that made it necessary to weigh the yeast to a thousandth of a gram and to use extremely accurate thermometers to measure the temperatures of the water and flour. For example, was the use of the highly accurate scale because of the small amount of poolish IDY, even with a total formula flour of 50 pounds? Assuming that 20% of the total formula flour is used for the poolish and that you start with a 50-lb bag of Harvest King flour, I calculate that the poolish IDY comes to 50 x 16 x 20% x 28.35 x 0.03264% = 1.481 grams. If my math is right, that is about a half-teaspoon. Wouldn't that be close enough?

Peter


I answered this question in the middle of service the other day and I really didn't give you an answer... more of a response. Also, I breezed over the question and didn't understand what you were asking.

We used to have a scale that weighed to a hundredth of a gram that broke. When I went to buy another, the closest model that they had to my needs that day (I needed one immediately) was the model that weighed to a thousandth. For the amount of dough we make, a scale that weighs to a hundredth of a gram is all we really need.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline scott r

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2011, 06:15:33 PM »
brian, I just wanted to say that this pizza recipe is amazing.    I have made it a few times now and I am so happy.  Another great bonus is the bread I have made with it.   Wow!   it really makes the best bread too.   I was wondering, how much rise in volume are you looking for before you ball it, then use it for pizza?   Even when I closely match your proofing temperatures and times I have found that the dough has not proofed quite enough to make my favorite pizzas.   My best have been when I let the dough go a little longer in the bulk rise and in the dough ball stage than you do.  I do have a proofing chamber that allows me to dial up any temp I like.  I know what I am experiencing is most likely because of mass effect, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.  Also, do you think there is any magic in the proofing temps you have selected?   I have been working for years with wild yeast starters, and I have definitely noticed that the proofing temps produce different results even if I let the dough get to the same point.   Again, thank you for bringing this into a public forum, and sorry for all the questions!       

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2011, 08:25:59 PM »
brian, I just wanted to say that this pizza recipe is amazing.    I have made it a few times now and I am so happy.  Another great bonus is the bread I have made with it.   Wow!   it really makes the best bread too.   I was wondering, how much rise in volume are you looking for before you ball it, then use it for pizza?   Even when I closely match your proofing temperatures and times I have found that the dough has not proofed quite enough to make my favorite pizzas.   My best have been when I let the dough go a little longer in the bulk rise and in the dough ball stage than you do.  I do have a proofing chamber that allows me to dial up any temp I like.  I know what I am experiencing is most likely because of mass effect, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.  Also, do you think there is any magic in the proofing temps you have selected?   I have been working for years with wild yeast starters, and I have definitely noticed that the proofing temps produce different results even if I let the dough get to the same point.   Again, thank you for bringing this into a public forum, and sorry for all the questions!       

My pleasure and I'm glad you are enjoying the formula. Yes, what you are experiencing is most likely due to the smaller mass. Given your mass, you now know that it's going to take a few hours longer than me, but that is all good in the big picture.

Commercial yeast likes to work around 72-74 degrees F. Our kitchen is almost always 74.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline pennygirl

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #167 on: February 13, 2011, 04:20:37 PM »
Scott, I was wondering if you're using your Bosch with Brian's formula and how long you are mixing for? Brian says about 8-10 minutes I believe on his "SLOW" hobart. I'm sure that is much less for those using a Bosch. Is that safe to say? Should I go until the batch windowpanes?...or reaches 80 degrees??

I'm using "Shepard's Grain" low gluten if this can give you a better idea of directing any advice. (hard red winter wheat). Tom Douglas' Serious Pie in Seattle uses this as well as Delancey out here in Seattle. Really appreciate all you do here. And thanks again to Brian, can't wait to get down there. Thanks in advance Scott.

Zak
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 04:29:34 PM by pennygirl »

Offline scott r

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #168 on: February 13, 2011, 06:15:43 PM »
I have been trying a few versions of brians formula and this is what I have come up with.   

It is possible to make this recipe with great success with the bosch and no stretch and folds.    The stretch and folds do help the final texture slightly, but I sometimes am not around to do them and its easier for me to do all the mixing to full gluten development with the mixer right off the bat.    I have been working on this recipe with a 63% hydration and harvest king flour.   With this flour 63% is still fairly wet, especially when compared to "typical" pizza dough you would find at most pizzerias.   Some flours hold water differently, and I can not speak for your Shepards grain flour, as I have not used it.   It is possible that my mixing times given below would not work perfectly for your flour, so some experimentation on your part will still be needed for the perfect pizza.  What plays a big part in deciding my mixing time for any recipe is how wet the flour is in the mixer.   With wetter doughs I find the need to do quite a bit more mixing, and with dryer doughs I can get away with less.  So, if you can get your hands on some harvest king to make this recipe once, note how wet the flour feels compared to when you use shepards grain.  If its wetter your mixing times are probably going to be longer than mine, if its dryer, probably less time mixing will be needed.  All of the mixing times I am giving you for the bosch are after an initial addition of all the ingredients, a 20 second or so run just to combine, then a 10-20 minute rest before actual mixing begins.   

If I am doing the stretch and folds I have found about 4-5 minutes in the bosch on the lowest speed to be about right.   By the time the last fold is done the dough should be fairly tight and not tacky.

If I am not doing the stretch and folds my mixing time goes way up to 10-12 minutes on the slowest speed in the bosch universal plus.    If I am doing this I actually like to put a 10-20 minute rest about half way into the mix (so at 5-6 min), but it is not totally necessary.   

Just to give you some perspective on mix times vs hydration percentages... When I tried this recipe at 60% hydration I only found the need to mix for about 7-8 minutes with no stretch and folds. 

Good luck pennygirl, and welcome to the forum!     

Offline s00da

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #169 on: February 18, 2011, 08:45:37 AM »
wow...did I miss something! This must be thread of the year  :-D We actually have Brian sharing his formula and experience on the forum...what a man. I'm preparing a big batch of his formula for tomorrow's pizza...let's see how it turns out.

So while I don't questions the methods, some question did pop into my mind, I hope Brain sees this post.

For instance, what would you consider to be the ultimate dough formulation/procedure for pizza IF you had all the time in the world. I'm sure the method you use now puts into consideration commercial factors like time constraints, labor skill and operation....but does it sacrifice something away from what you would consider the ultimate dough/crust?

In the past years I tried different methods and for my personal preference I came to the conclusion that the best flavor is produced with a dough fermented for 24 hours at room temperature. But with time, this method showed me some of it's limitations. For example, when I try to ball/shape dough balls from a bulk dough fermented for 24 hours...if I'm not very careful, the gluten structure will be greatly compromised and hence the crumb. I can see that when stretching a skin, weak spots are hardly avoidable. With time I came to the conclusion that such method could be unsuitable for pizza since it is dough that will be stretched so a dough with more even gluten structure/fabric is favorable. When I looked at your formula/method, I realized that it will make great skins that are easy to work with since dough is balled after mixing and before much bubbling in the dough.

I wish if you could also shed some of your experience on different dough preparation methods and what you think of them!



Offline Tannerwooden

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #170 on: February 20, 2011, 04:19:19 PM »
SPANGLER CLONE FOR BREAKFAST
or
(HOW THIS POST FINALLY SOLVED ALL MY PROBLEMS)

Pics below!

So I don't know if anyone noticed, but this post is titled, "How to get rid of the water."  I wanted to know how to have my pizza cook with a big airy crust (read: high hydration) but also by more New York style, less doughy Neapolitan.  So I made pizza for a lot of friends last night, and most of the dough was my typical Reinhart, chilled ingredients, chilled overnight dough.  I also did the Spangler clone recipe though, just enough for one 18 inch at 62% hydration.

Dinner was a relative success.  Everyone else liked it, but I was a little frustrated by the fact that the cold weather in my area made the dough take too long to rise.  I had to bake before I was ready and the pizzas were a little flatter than I like.  I baked the Spangler last, and it was definitely the best, but also not risen enough.

Here's the cool part.  I didn't want to make an 18 inch pizza so I only used enough of the Spangler dough for a 14 inch.  I put the rest in a plastic container just so I could watch the bubbles as a help to determine how the dough was doing.  I didn't have time to clean the whole kitchen that night so I just left that dough out.  We turn the heat off at night so, lo and behold, this little piece of dough was PERFECTLY risen in the morning.  I already had my modded oven set up, so I decided to bake it.

Here's the big lesson I learned, might seem stupid to some of you.  Normally, I put my stone on the second to top level of my oven and after it's preheated, I turn the broiler on to imitate the high heat of a WFO.  This time, I put the stone on the very top of the oven and left the broiler off.  I put the pizza in when the middle of the stone reached about 700.  Normally, my pies bake in about 2 minutes or less.  This one took more like 5.  I think I was ruining my pizzas with the top element, It was browning the crust too soon so the pie couldn't rise properly, and the heat was probably radiating down to the crust of the pie and helping it to burn too soon.

So this pizza for breakfast turned out to be the best from my kitchen so far.  It's just slightly too charred on the bottom.  Next time I might try something like 645-650.  Toppings are pepperoni and 2 year aged cheddar.  I didn't want sauce on a breakfast pizza.  If I'd had bacon I would have used that instead.  Oh, and the pizza is deformed because I didn't use any oil when i put the dough in the container, so it was messy getting it out.

Thanks so much Brian and the others on this site who have given me fantastic advice and a great dough recipe!

Offline pennygirl

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #171 on: February 22, 2011, 02:10:09 AM »
I think that I am suffering from a bit of the same mass effect problem as Scott but I'm trying to work though it. My batches are one third of Peter's recipe amount. I end up with two ten ounce balls.  I love Brian's concept of minimal IDY.  I'm still new to a poolish and am working toward one that is perfectly mature. I don't think it's overmature because I'm not seeing a collapse as far as I can tell but I'm not positive. If anything I think I'm on the undermature side being it's kind of cold here still. I have to set it in the Microwave over night to keep it barely above 70 degrees.

On to tonight's pie. I'm at around a 675 degree bake in a hacked oven. pies have been right about 3 minutes of late. I want to go slower to "get rid of the water" but I'm afraid I'm not going to get that awesome char that i love, haha. Wouldn't be posting here if it weren't for Brian's generosity, thanks dude.







« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 02:14:44 AM by pennygirl »

Offline s00da

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #172 on: March 02, 2011, 03:09:24 PM »
Brian's formula is truly amazing. I made a batch of 4 balls; used 2 and stored 2 in the fridge.

The freshly made ones were crispier and had a softer crumb. The crust a great chew to it and it melts right away in the mouth.

The ones stored in the fridge had even a better flavor, better than any of my previous doughs fermented for 24 hours... and they browned nicely even though I suspected they would have been over fermented.

Things I noticed and liked about the dough:
1. When the dough first comes out of the mixer, it's pretty wet. But as I gave it the 45 minutes rest and then stretch and folds, it became less and less wet. At the end during balling, the dough had this amazing texture of being like a blob of wet marshmallow...I can see how gluten can be swollen and greatly developed. It made me feel like all my previous doughs that I made for the past 3 years were a failure  >:( this texture feels just right.
2. When it's time to open the dough balls, they haven't risen much and the bubbling was minimal on the bottom of the plastic container. I thought they could be under risen or under-fermented...Notice that I have increased the final formula's IDY a little to compensate for the mass effect. But as I opened it to a 20 inch, it was so easy and nice to work with and had zero thin spots. When baked, the dough sprang perfectly.
3. Even for the 2 balls stored in the fridge for 2 days...I took them out for 3 hours and they still haven't risen much. The dough ball opened as easily as the fresh ones.

Below are images of one of the pizzas made from the retarded dough. As you can see it doesn't fit the 18 inch tray. I topped it with a combo of fresh mozzarella and organic low moisture mozzarella. There is some sausage that I doubt you can see along with some yellow cherry tomatoes.

Truly amazing. Brain, thank you very much. Not only I enjoyed good pizza but I have learned many things. You're a master.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 03:11:28 PM by s00da »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #173 on: March 02, 2011, 03:14:53 PM »
Saad,

Good to see you back. Now Brian's dough formulation has made it all the way to Kuwait!!

Which specific dough formulation did you use?   My recollection is that you have a special oven setup. What temperature did you use?

Peter

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #174 on: March 02, 2011, 03:26:33 PM »
@sOOda - Awesome! Glad you enjoy the formula and, more importantly, I'm glad you are enjoying making pizza.

I received my samples of Central Milling Bakers Craft (with and without malt) and I am looking to make samples this Sunday with the formula. I'll let you know the results.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline s00da

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #175 on: March 02, 2011, 03:33:59 PM »
Hi Peter, good to see you all...life is really busy here. Can't manage much time for pizza with a job and a family business.

Sorry I didn't use the tool to produce a more standard looking formula but I have it ready as text. Here goes...

Poolish fermented for 14 hours at 74 F
Flour: 435.00 g
water: 435.00 g 100.00%
IDY: 3.26E-04 1.42E-01 g 4.69E-02 tsp (1/32 1/64)

I made the below 2 times since the mixer is too small to handle it.
Final dough as per Brian's procedure. 2 fermented at 74 F until bake and 2 retarded in the fridge for 2 days and then brought to room temp and proof for 3 hours at 74 F
Poolish: 362.00 g
Flour: 723.00 g
water: 390.00 g 63.16%
salt: 2.00% 18.08 g 3.25 tsp
oil: 1.50% 13.56 g 3.01 tsp
IDY: 5.29E-04 3.82E-01 g 1.26E-01 tsp (1/8) + ***(1/64) as mass effect compensation

As you can see, I tailor flour/water quantity  so I get easier to measure values.

As for the baking temperature...I tried the 700 F for the first bake and for the second bake I used 650-680F. Not much difference except for extra charred upskirt with the 700 F.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 04:59:15 AM by s00da »

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #176 on: April 25, 2011, 11:49:57 AM »
Tried Mr. Spanglers formula he so generously provided and although I made a few oopsies it came out great IMHO.
Started a new thread here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13661.new.html as I just felt it deserved it.
Hog

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #177 on: April 24, 2012, 01:06:54 PM »
Another member brought this interesting Brian Spangler video to the forum's attention: http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/index.ssf/2012/04/pizza_week_learn_how_apizza_sc.html.

Peter

Offline franko9752

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #178 on: April 25, 2012, 09:05:20 AM »
Thanks for posting Pete.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #179 on: April 30, 2012, 01:05:09 PM »
For some more Apizza Scholls videos, see the links in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18960.msg179206/topicseen.html#new.

Peter


 

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