Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 57324 times)

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scott123

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 01:06:31 AM »
1935, wow, what a relic.  If the pizza thing doesn't work out, maybe you could open a Hobart Mixer Museum ;D

And kneading time is definitely relative.  With a slow vintage mixer plodding along, it might take the dough as long as 5 or 6 minutes just to come together, so the actual gluten development might not be that much.  The dough is probably far from smooth at the 8 minute point, right?


Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 01:21:31 AM »
1935, wow, what a relic.  If the pizza thing doesn't work out, maybe you could open a Hobart Mixer Museum ;D

And kneading time is definitely relative.  With a slow vintage mixer plodding along, it might take the dough as long as 5 or 6 minutes just to come together, so the actual gluten development might not be that much.  The dough is probably far from smooth at the 8 minute point, right?

It's choppy at that point... Not smooth, but not rough like pie dough.
Brian Spangler
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 01:22:30 AM »
We still do 4 stretch and folds at 45 minute increments.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 07:58:04 AM »
We still do 4 stretch and folds at 45 minute increments.


Do you do this out of habit, on account of the old mixer, or for another reason?  I understand it's use for strength building in wet doughs but why now?

Chau

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 08:32:01 AM »
Do you do this out of habit, on account of the old mixer, or for another reason?  I understand it's use for strength building in wet doughs but why now?

Chau

Because the mixer is used to incorporate and achieve minimal development. The dough isn't fully incorporated until after 4 minutes in the mixer.
 
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2011, 11:33:28 AM »
Brian,  nice to have you adding to the forum.  I think I can speak for all of us when I say we appreciate it.  I wanted to ask what are you using for ovens these days?  Thanks -Marc

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2011, 12:12:21 PM »
Brian,  nice to have you adding to the forum.  I think I can speak for all of us when I say we appreciate it.  I wanted to ask what are you using for ovens these days?  Thanks -Marc

Bakers Pride Model #5736

http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-5736-01-07.pdf

Brian Spangler
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2011, 03:58:55 PM »
I want to clarify in my previous post... we are not adding steam, but when you bake multiple pizzas in the same deck, steam is a natural by-product. We keep our flues closed, so that the heat and steam do not escape the oven chamber. If I was to bake just one pizza in a deck, the browning results would be less even as less steam would be present.

Brian,

Since you have an electric deck oven, do you keep the flues closed in order to emulate a gas-fired deck oven, which tends to produce a more humid baking environment?

Peter

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2011, 04:13:50 PM »
Brian,

Since you have an electric deck oven, do you keep the flues closed in order to emulate a gas-fired deck oven, which tends to produce a more humid baking environment?

Peter

Yes, however too much steam can be a problem. Since the deck is 57" wide, we can get 3 18" pizzas out of each load before allowing the oven to recoupe. If we drop all three in at the same time, there is too much steam, which takes heat away from the hearth, walls, dome, etc. The pizzas then take too long to bake and dry out.

We stagger the pizzas as they go in. When the first pie is half way done, put the second pie in. When the first pie is coming out, or about to come out, drop the third pizza. Repeat.
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2011, 05:12:33 PM »
Brian,

I also appreciate your answering questions openly on the forum.  I have a Bakerís Pride Counter Top Double Deck Gas (propane) Oven.  GP-61  http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Instal%20ops/Counter%20Top/GP-51-61%20Inst-Op%20U4128A%201-08.pdf

Right now I using KASL flour with a preferment (poolish) for my dough.  The poolish is made on a Friday and cold fermented until I use the poolish to make my final dough on a Monday.  The dough is then cold fermented for one day.  Do you think if I would try Harvest King flour, I maybe could get a better crust in my pizzas?  I am only a small one day a week pizza stand at a farmerís market.  My bake temperatures are around 555-568 degrees F.   My hydration of my preferment Lehmann dough is around 62-64%.  I am wondering about how Harvest King might be a better flour for me to try.  I see you use Harvest King flour.  I mix my dough in a Hobart mixer for about 6 minutes in 15 lb. batches. I also use 1.5 % oil in my dough.

Norma

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2011, 05:31:10 PM »
Brian,

I also appreciate your answering questions openly on the forum.  I have a Bakerís Pride Counter Top Double Deck Gas (propane) Oven.  GP-61  http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Instal%20ops/Counter%20Top/GP-51-61%20Inst-Op%20U4128A%201-08.pdf

Right now I using KASL flour with a preferment (poolish) for my dough.  The poolish is made on a Friday and cold fermented until I use the poolish to make my final dough on a Monday.  The dough is then cold fermented for one day.  Do you think if I would try Harvest King flour, I maybe could get a better crust in my pizzas?  I am only a small one day a week pizza stand at a farmerís market.  My bake temperatures are around 555-568 degrees F.   My hydration of my preferment Lehmann dough is around 62-64%.  I am wondering about how Harvest King might be a better flour for me to try.  I see you use Harvest King flour.  I mix my dough in a Hobart mixer for about 6 minutes in 15 lb. batches. I also use 1.5 % oil in my dough.

Norma

I can't say it would be better for you or not as I do not know exactly what your desired results are. What I do know about KASL is that it is a high gluten flour made from hard red spring wheat. Harvest King is made from hard red winter wheat. The advantages of winter wheat is that the dormancy in the ground yields a higher quality protein, which is better for long fermentations as it gives you better fermentation tolerance. By fermentation tolerance, I mean that you have a larger window of time before the gluten collapses, turning your product into a hockey puck, etc.  The lower protein levels will also make your final product less chewy, if that is your desired result. High gluten already gives you a chewier product, but add cold fermentation and you might find that your product is chewier than you want due to the acid production. They now sell it at grocery stores in 5# bags, so a little side by side experiment/comparison would be easy to do.

What don't you like about your dough with your current formula and using KASL flour?
Brian Spangler
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2011, 05:33:59 PM »
Brian,

I also appreciate your answering questions openly on the forum.

My pleasure. I used to serve on the BBGA Board of Directors many years ago, and I have missed sharing info. This forum is a blast and I love the dedication and breadth of shared knowledge by many who participate.
Brian Spangler
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Online norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2011, 05:45:09 PM »

What don't you like about your dough with your current formula and using KASL flour?

Brian,

There really isnít anything I donít like about my current dough, but was looking for other ways to improve my pizzas.  I never tried out any other flour in my formula, so I appreciate your advise to try out some in 5lb. bags to see how a side by side comparison would change my pizzas. I will take your advise and try some test doughs. The only problems with my formula now I can see is I also want more coloration in my crust and just started experiments using dairy whey in the final dough.

This is where Peter (Pete-zza) set-forth a formula for me to try.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687  I have been using the preferment Lehmann dough for about a year and really like the formula. The poolish is 30% of the total dough weight.

I am also doing experiments with milk kefir and trying to make a naturally leavened dough for market.  So far the milk kefir doughs are working out, but I am only making one test dough ball at a time.

Thanks for your help.  If you want to see where I am using milk kefir in my dough for experiments, I can provide the links.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 06:10:20 PM by norma427 »

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2011, 06:47:02 PM »
Brian,

There really isnít anything I donít like about my current dough, but was looking for other ways to improve my pizzas.  I never tried out any other flour in my formula, so I appreciate your advise to try out some in 5lb. bags to see how a side by side comparison would change my pizzas. I will take your advise and try some test doughs. The only problems with my formula now I can see is I also want more coloration in my crust and just started experiments using dairy whey in the final dough.

This is where Peter (Pete-zza) set-forth a formula for me to try.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687  I have been using the preferment Lehmann dough for about a year and really like the formula. The poolish is 30% of the total dough weight.

I am also doing experiments with milk kefir and trying to make a naturally leavened dough for market.  So far the milk kefir doughs are working out, but I am only making one test dough ball at a time.

Thanks for your help.  If you want to see where I am using milk kefir in my dough for experiments, I can provide the links.

Norma

Lack of sugar comes from a lack of fermentation or overfermentation. Judging from the pictures in replies #171 & #172, I would say that your dough looks a little underproofed but not far away... they definitely don't look overproofed.

I have never added sugar to my dough, so I cannot help you there, other than you will get more color. I'd love to hear about your experiences with the milk kefir.
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2011, 07:09:16 PM »

 I'd love to hear about your experiences with the milk kefir.


Brian,

I am not having as much coloration issues with my preferment Lehmann dough.  Thanks for you help with the Harvest King flour.  :)  I will test that out in the next week.

This thread is where I am trying a milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough, if you are interested in reading it.  Peter, (Pete-zza) has been helping me with the formula and changes to the formula.

This is the one formula I am using for the poolish milk kefir dough, but I stopped using honey to help crust coloration and now am trying dairy whey for better crust coloration.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg119026.html#msg119026

I was able to cold ferment a dough for 25 days and make a successful pizza, without only a tiny bit of a sourdough taste.  If you want to look at that post it is at Reply 162 where I started the experiment. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118238.html#msg118238 
and the finished 25 cold fermented dough was tried at Reply 219 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg121186.html#msg121186

This is were Peter (Pete-zza) recommended for me to try the milk keifr poolish at 60% of the total formula flour.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117465.html#msg117465

The 60% milk kefir poolish of the total flour is working well, except for crust coloration.

Milk kefir is interesting to me in a dough.  I donít know if I will ever be able to make a naturally leavened dough at market, but I will try.  Did you ever hear of anyone using milk keifr in a pizza dough?  I also have tried milk kefir in bread and bagels.  The results were decent.

Norma

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2011, 05:13:49 PM »
Brian,

Would you mind discussing how you managed your dough both when you used a hydration at around 72-74% and your current hydration value? I assume that when you used the higher hydration values you did a bulk fermentation at room temperature and then at some point did the dough division. In such a case, how did you hold the dough balls pending use? Also, on the assumption that my analysis is correct, did going to the lower hydration value require you to do anything different from a dough management standpoint than what you did with the higher hydration doughs? For example, did you have to change the amount of salt?

As a frame of reference, can you tell us what a typical dough ball weighs, both when you used the higher hydration values and your current hydration value?

Thanks.

Peter

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2011, 06:32:35 PM »
Brian,

Would you mind discussing how you managed your dough both when you used a hydration at around 72-74% and your current hydration value? I assume that when you used the higher hydration values you did a bulk fermentation at room temperature and then at some point did the dough division. In such a case, how did you hold the dough balls pending use? Also, on the assumption that my analysis is correct, did going to the lower hydration value require you to do anything different from a dough management standpoint than what you did with the higher hydration doughs? For example, did you have to change the amount of salt?

As a frame of reference, can you tell us what a typical dough ball weighs, both when you used the higher hydration values and your current hydration value?

Thanks.

Peter

The system stayed the same, actually. We lowered the hydration for several reasons, the biggest one being that some of the new pizza makers were having a tough time stretching the skin to 18"+ with the high hydration. I think we were really pushing it the first three years with the higher hydration. No change in salt.

We scale 21 oz per 18"+... I say + because our pizzas hang over the edge of a 18" pan, so we are more like 19-20"

We used to scale around 22-23 oz with the higher hydration dough.

A day's process is this...

Make poolish at approx. 9:30 pm

At 10:30 am, mix poolish with remaining final dough ingredients. Mix on first speed with a spiral hook for approx 8-10 minutes. We want the dough to be around 80 degrees when it comes out of the bowl.

Divide dough into 2 separate dough tubs. By this point it is 11am

Stretch and fold every 45 minutes.

2:30 we scale and ball the dough. It takes us half an hour to do 110 skins.

At this point we evaluate the dough and whether it needs a chill in the walk in or not. On average, we may roll the dough into the walk in for 15 minutes.

If we did our job, dough should be ready to roll at 5pm

During production, put the rack of dough into the walk in for 10 minute periods. On hotter days, we may do this 3-4 times over the 5 hour production. Some nights, it might only be once or twice.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 01:12:36 AM by sfspanky »
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2011, 07:20:27 PM »
Brian,

Thank you for the additional information. As a result, I went back to my original post where I came up with my "Spangler clone dough" at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg76431.html#msg76431. That clone was before you modified your dough formulation. However, in rereading that post it looks like I came very close to what you were doing before you instituted the changes, including a calculated judgment on my part that you were of the classic Calvel/Rosada mold (they are two of my personal heros) and meant what you said when you posted information on your dough and methods in the Portland blog. Having seen prominent professionals obscure what they are doing and sometimes misleading others as to what they do, or coming up with harmless dough recipes for the common folk to use, I have developed the Ronald Reagan philosophy of "trust but verify". So, it is refreshing to see someone of your stature willing to disclose what you are doing at the level of detail you have provided. We have some very talented and knowledgeable members on this forum, so I hope you will find something of value here to compensate you for your contributions to the forum, and maybe encourage future participation on your part within the constaints of your need to run a real business. 

Getting back to my clone, I was a bit off on the amount of IDY in my post referenced above but I had calculated the amount of IDY in my clone based on the prevailing ambient temperatures where I live outside of Dallas, where summer temperatures can get to over 100 degrees F, with correspondingly high room temperatures in my kitchen. Were I in a cooler climate, such as Portland, OR, I suspect I would have made adjustments to the amount of IDY to use. It also looks like I guessed right on the thickness factor of your original dough (0.09), which gave me a dough weight of around 22-23 ounces. It appears what I lacked was the right oven, as I commented in my post and elsewhere.

I always invite comment on what I have done, so please feel free to add anything that I may have missed.

Peter


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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2011, 09:52:17 PM »
Brian,
... a calculated judgment on my part that you were of the classic Calvel/Rosada mold (they are two of my personal heros)


I trained under Didier Rosada. The man is a walking bread computer.
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2011, 11:08:04 PM »
Brian,  just curious,  would a gas deck oven at the same temps create a nearly identical product?  Also,  with thos being electric,  do you have to deal with much recovery time?  Thanks -marc

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2011, 11:48:09 PM »
Brian,  just curious,  would a gas deck oven at the same temps create a nearly identical product?  Also,  with thos being electric,  do you have to deal with much recovery time?  Thanks -marc

I don't know if you can get gas ovens as hot, but I have never used one, so I cannot say for sure. We drop our pizzas when the hearth is reading around 700 degrees.

Since the electric ovens have elements below the hearth as well as above the hearth, our recovery times are very, very short. This also speeds up the baking time.

To put it this way, every time I have a new employee that has only worked with gas deck ovens, they are always commenting on how hot the oven is and how fast it recovers. If you are not careful, these electric deck ovens can get away from you pretty quickly.
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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2011, 08:01:31 AM »
Brian,

Sorry to be asking another question, but do you find that when using Harvest King, that flour is better suited for a poolish than other flours?  Have you found different flours work better for different preferments?  Do you think the flavor of the crust would be better if I tried Harvest King instead of KASL in my preferment Lehmann formula with a poolish?  I also need to try out Harvest King in my milk kefir poolish dough.

I also wondered since different flour companies do produce different flours for wholesale, is the Harvest King brand exactly the same kind of flour that can be purchased retail in supermarkets? I can purchase Harvest King from my distributor, but just wondered, before I do some tests on supermarket flour.

Thanks again for answering questions openly on the forum.   :)

Norma 

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2011, 08:38:53 AM »
Brian, not sure if this has already been asked, but about how long is your typical pie baked for?  Also do you have any favorite pictures of your pizzas you wouldn't mind sharing as well?  Some crumb shots would be cool too.

Thanks,
Chau

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2011, 08:56:15 AM »
Hi Brian,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge so freely.
I am guessing that you can control the top heating element in each deck..Can you tell me roughly what temp you are using for the top elements?

Many thanks,

Paul
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:00:12 AM by PaulsPizza »

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2011, 02:58:47 PM »
Brian,

Sorry to be asking another question, but do you find that when using Harvest King, that flour is better suited for a poolish than other flours?  Have you found different flours work better for different preferments?  Do you think the flavor of the crust would be better if I tried Harvest King instead of KASL in my preferment Lehmann formula with a poolish?  I also need to try out Harvest King in my milk kefir poolish dough.

I also wondered since different flour companies do produce different flours for wholesale, is the Harvest King brand exactly the same kind of flour that can be purchased retail in supermarkets? I can purchase Harvest King from my distributor, but just wondered, before I do some tests on supermarket flour.

Thanks again for answering questions openly on the forum.   :)

Norma 

I find any winter wheat is better for preferments than spring wheat, due to the better protein quality. This is for fermentation tolerance that higher quality protein gives you. I have come across some flours that were better for sourdough, than commercial yeast preferments, but they have been few and far between and those flours were generally milled from spring wheat. Any flour, no matter what label is on the outside, is going to be different from lot# to lot#. Every growing season is different and most flours are milled from wheat grown in different regions, by different farms. I can't say that the flavor will be better for you, but I have been using Harvest King flour for almost 8 years now, for both sourdough and poolish breads. It is a very consistent product with great enzyme activity balance.

I just talked to the GM rep and he told me that the Harvest King flour in the 5# bags was the exact same flour as in the 50# bags.
Brian Spangler
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