Author Topic: How to get rid of the water  (Read 44896 times)

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scott123

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2011, 12:27:51 AM »
The acid generation from the poolish probably pushes the absorption value a little higher than normal, but, for unbromated 12ish% protein wheat, 72% hydration is still pretty extreme.  I began with a 'more-water-the-better' philosophy, but, over time, I've definitely found that the sweet spot for oven spring is pretty close to a flour's absorption value (2-5% above) and that pushing the hydration envelope can both reduce spring and produce too much chewiness.

Could you elaborate a little further on your 'short mixing time?'  I've been a big proponent of the no knead approach/allowing long ferments to develop the gluten rather than kneading, but a big factor in my approach has been my use of bromated 14% protein flour, which, to be honest, pretty much forms gluten just by looking at it :) If I knead (by hand) any longer than about 2 minutes and then ferment for longer than a day, I end up with a tough, barely edible crust. I don't think lower protein flours present as much of a toughness issue, but I'd still be curious as to the specifics of how you handle your dough.


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2011, 12:29:25 AM »

.....   I beleive that we are achieving the same open crumb, but maybe achieving a little more spring from the lower hydration....


First of all, thanks Brian for your insight and tips.  As Chau mentioned, personal observations from operators can't come often enough for us 'home' pizza warriors.

Question:  Would there be a chance that a slight amount of oil entered the equasion, when dropping the hydration 10%? 

Thanks again for your time.
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scott123

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2011, 12:48:20 AM »
Yes, different types of baking stone will be more efficient in pulling moisture from the dough as it cooks.

While I do agree that different materials DO absorb different amounts of water, the most common commercial stone material, cordierite, is so dense that the amount of water that it absorbs is marginal.  Furthermore, the temperatures of the pre-heated stone are sufficiently high enough that any water contacting the stone isn't going to be water for long.

I've seen tests comparing cordierite and soapstone (no absorption) and the results were marginal. You could barely tell the difference.  I've actually started recommending completely non absorptive steel plate as a super conductive method of overcoming the anemic conditions in home ovens that can't go above 525 f.

There are cast refractory stones available on the retail level (fibrament), that, because they are cast, they're very porous, but this porosity trashes conductivity (the kiss of death for the home pizza baker seeking shorter baking times) as well as shortens their longevity. As water converts to steam it expands 1600 times.  For the sake of durability (and conductivity), one doesn't want a more absorptive stone.

So, imo, more/less absorptive stones are not the answer to crispiness issues.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:54:19 AM by scott123 »

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2011, 12:53:35 AM »
Could you elaborate a little further on your 'short mixing time?'

Scott,

Yes, we used to mix our dough in 2 separate batches for ease of hand mixing. Each tub would be mixed for about 15-20 minutes and then we would do a stretch and fold every 45 minutes (four times overall) during the bulk fermentation.

We now mix the entire batch for about 8-10 minutes in first speed on our ancient (1935) Hobart mixer. Not sure about current mixer speeds, but this sucker is slooooooooooooow. Probably live past me, however. We haven't noticed any crumb structure difference from our hand kneading days.
Brian Spangler
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2011, 12:54:59 AM »
Question:  Would there be a chance that a slight amount of oil entered the equasion, when dropping the hydration 10%? 

We now add 1.5 % olive oil to the dough to soften it up a bit.
Brian Spangler
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scott123

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 01:06:31 AM »
1935, wow, what a relic.  If the pizza thing doesn't work out, maybe you could open a Hobart Mixer Museum ;D

And kneading time is definitely relative.  With a slow vintage mixer plodding along, it might take the dough as long as 5 or 6 minutes just to come together, so the actual gluten development might not be that much.  The dough is probably far from smooth at the 8 minute point, right?

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 01:21:31 AM »
1935, wow, what a relic.  If the pizza thing doesn't work out, maybe you could open a Hobart Mixer Museum ;D

And kneading time is definitely relative.  With a slow vintage mixer plodding along, it might take the dough as long as 5 or 6 minutes just to come together, so the actual gluten development might not be that much.  The dough is probably far from smooth at the 8 minute point, right?

It's choppy at that point... Not smooth, but not rough like pie dough.
Brian Spangler
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 01:22:30 AM »
We still do 4 stretch and folds at 45 minute increments.
Brian Spangler
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 07:58:04 AM »
We still do 4 stretch and folds at 45 minute increments.


Do you do this out of habit, on account of the old mixer, or for another reason?  I understand it's use for strength building in wet doughs but why now?

Chau

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 08:32:01 AM »
Do you do this out of habit, on account of the old mixer, or for another reason?  I understand it's use for strength building in wet doughs but why now?

Chau

Because the mixer is used to incorporate and achieve minimal development. The dough isn't fully incorporated until after 4 minutes in the mixer.
 
Brian Spangler
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2011, 11:33:28 AM »
Brian,  nice to have you adding to the forum.  I think I can speak for all of us when I say we appreciate it.  I wanted to ask what are you using for ovens these days?  Thanks -Marc

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2011, 12:12:21 PM »
Brian,  nice to have you adding to the forum.  I think I can speak for all of us when I say we appreciate it.  I wanted to ask what are you using for ovens these days?  Thanks -Marc

Bakers Pride Model #5736

http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-5736-01-07.pdf

Brian Spangler
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2011, 03:58:55 PM »
I want to clarify in my previous post... we are not adding steam, but when you bake multiple pizzas in the same deck, steam is a natural by-product. We keep our flues closed, so that the heat and steam do not escape the oven chamber. If I was to bake just one pizza in a deck, the browning results would be less even as less steam would be present.

Brian,

Since you have an electric deck oven, do you keep the flues closed in order to emulate a gas-fired deck oven, which tends to produce a more humid baking environment?

Peter

Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2011, 04:13:50 PM »
Brian,

Since you have an electric deck oven, do you keep the flues closed in order to emulate a gas-fired deck oven, which tends to produce a more humid baking environment?

Peter

Yes, however too much steam can be a problem. Since the deck is 57" wide, we can get 3 18" pizzas out of each load before allowing the oven to recoupe. If we drop all three in at the same time, there is too much steam, which takes heat away from the hearth, walls, dome, etc. The pizzas then take too long to bake and dry out.

We stagger the pizzas as they go in. When the first pie is half way done, put the second pie in. When the first pie is coming out, or about to come out, drop the third pizza. Repeat.
Brian Spangler
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Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2011, 05:12:33 PM »
Brian,

I also appreciate your answering questions openly on the forum.  I have a Bakerís Pride Counter Top Double Deck Gas (propane) Oven.  GP-61  http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Instal%20ops/Counter%20Top/GP-51-61%20Inst-Op%20U4128A%201-08.pdf

Right now I using KASL flour with a preferment (poolish) for my dough.  The poolish is made on a Friday and cold fermented until I use the poolish to make my final dough on a Monday.  The dough is then cold fermented for one day.  Do you think if I would try Harvest King flour, I maybe could get a better crust in my pizzas?  I am only a small one day a week pizza stand at a farmerís market.  My bake temperatures are around 555-568 degrees F.   My hydration of my preferment Lehmann dough is around 62-64%.  I am wondering about how Harvest King might be a better flour for me to try.  I see you use Harvest King flour.  I mix my dough in a Hobart mixer for about 6 minutes in 15 lb. batches. I also use 1.5 % oil in my dough.

Norma
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2011, 05:31:10 PM »
Brian,

I also appreciate your answering questions openly on the forum.  I have a Bakerís Pride Counter Top Double Deck Gas (propane) Oven.  GP-61  http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Instal%20ops/Counter%20Top/GP-51-61%20Inst-Op%20U4128A%201-08.pdf

Right now I using KASL flour with a preferment (poolish) for my dough.  The poolish is made on a Friday and cold fermented until I use the poolish to make my final dough on a Monday.  The dough is then cold fermented for one day.  Do you think if I would try Harvest King flour, I maybe could get a better crust in my pizzas?  I am only a small one day a week pizza stand at a farmerís market.  My bake temperatures are around 555-568 degrees F.   My hydration of my preferment Lehmann dough is around 62-64%.  I am wondering about how Harvest King might be a better flour for me to try.  I see you use Harvest King flour.  I mix my dough in a Hobart mixer for about 6 minutes in 15 lb. batches. I also use 1.5 % oil in my dough.

Norma

I can't say it would be better for you or not as I do not know exactly what your desired results are. What I do know about KASL is that it is a high gluten flour made from hard red spring wheat. Harvest King is made from hard red winter wheat. The advantages of winter wheat is that the dormancy in the ground yields a higher quality protein, which is better for long fermentations as it gives you better fermentation tolerance. By fermentation tolerance, I mean that you have a larger window of time before the gluten collapses, turning your product into a hockey puck, etc.  The lower protein levels will also make your final product less chewy, if that is your desired result. High gluten already gives you a chewier product, but add cold fermentation and you might find that your product is chewier than you want due to the acid production. They now sell it at grocery stores in 5# bags, so a little side by side experiment/comparison would be easy to do.

What don't you like about your dough with your current formula and using KASL flour?
Brian Spangler
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2011, 05:33:59 PM »
Brian,

I also appreciate your answering questions openly on the forum.

My pleasure. I used to serve on the BBGA Board of Directors many years ago, and I have missed sharing info. This forum is a blast and I love the dedication and breadth of shared knowledge by many who participate.
Brian Spangler
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Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2011, 05:45:09 PM »

What don't you like about your dough with your current formula and using KASL flour?

Brian,

There really isnít anything I donít like about my current dough, but was looking for other ways to improve my pizzas.  I never tried out any other flour in my formula, so I appreciate your advise to try out some in 5lb. bags to see how a side by side comparison would change my pizzas. I will take your advise and try some test doughs. The only problems with my formula now I can see is I also want more coloration in my crust and just started experiments using dairy whey in the final dough.

This is where Peter (Pete-zza) set-forth a formula for me to try.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687  I have been using the preferment Lehmann dough for about a year and really like the formula. The poolish is 30% of the total dough weight.

I am also doing experiments with milk kefir and trying to make a naturally leavened dough for market.  So far the milk kefir doughs are working out, but I am only making one test dough ball at a time.

Thanks for your help.  If you want to see where I am using milk kefir in my dough for experiments, I can provide the links.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 06:10:20 PM by norma427 »
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Offline sfspanky

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2011, 06:47:02 PM »
Brian,

There really isnít anything I donít like about my current dough, but was looking for other ways to improve my pizzas.  I never tried out any other flour in my formula, so I appreciate your advise to try out some in 5lb. bags to see how a side by side comparison would change my pizzas. I will take your advise and try some test doughs. The only problems with my formula now I can see is I also want more coloration in my crust and just started experiments using dairy whey in the final dough.

This is where Peter (Pete-zza) set-forth a formula for me to try.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687  I have been using the preferment Lehmann dough for about a year and really like the formula. The poolish is 30% of the total dough weight.

I am also doing experiments with milk kefir and trying to make a naturally leavened dough for market.  So far the milk kefir doughs are working out, but I am only making one test dough ball at a time.

Thanks for your help.  If you want to see where I am using milk kefir in my dough for experiments, I can provide the links.

Norma

Lack of sugar comes from a lack of fermentation or overfermentation. Judging from the pictures in replies #171 & #172, I would say that your dough looks a little underproofed but not far away... they definitely don't look overproofed.

I have never added sugar to my dough, so I cannot help you there, other than you will get more color. I'd love to hear about your experiences with the milk kefir.
Brian Spangler
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Offline norma427

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Re: How to get rid of the water
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2011, 07:09:16 PM »

 I'd love to hear about your experiences with the milk kefir.


Brian,

I am not having as much coloration issues with my preferment Lehmann dough.  Thanks for you help with the Harvest King flour.  :)  I will test that out in the next week.

This thread is where I am trying a milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough, if you are interested in reading it.  Peter, (Pete-zza) has been helping me with the formula and changes to the formula.

This is the one formula I am using for the poolish milk kefir dough, but I stopped using honey to help crust coloration and now am trying dairy whey for better crust coloration.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg119026.html#msg119026

I was able to cold ferment a dough for 25 days and make a successful pizza, without only a tiny bit of a sourdough taste.  If you want to look at that post it is at Reply 162 where I started the experiment. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118238.html#msg118238 
and the finished 25 cold fermented dough was tried at Reply 219 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg121186.html#msg121186

This is were Peter (Pete-zza) recommended for me to try the milk keifr poolish at 60% of the total formula flour.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117465.html#msg117465

The 60% milk kefir poolish of the total flour is working well, except for crust coloration.

Milk kefir is interesting to me in a dough.  I donít know if I will ever be able to make a naturally leavened dough at market, but I will try.  Did you ever hear of anyone using milk keifr in a pizza dough?  I also have tried milk kefir in bread and bagels.  The results were decent.

Norma
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