Author Topic: Pizza Sputnik... (Read 13817 times)

ponzu · « **Reply #80 on:** December 02, 2010, 05:32:38 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on December 02, 2010, 09:51:29 AM

Interesting experiment. In the bulk stage, how much did the dough rise?

It rose from 1.2 to just over 2 quarts. More importantly (to me) it had a lot the qualities described in Tartine bread as a dough ready to shape. (held the shape of the prior turn, pulled away from the sides of the container, was billowy.)

boudie · « **Reply #81 on:** December 03, 2010, 03:13:34 PM »

I love this experiment and really appreciate the attitude on the forum of trying to help each other out.

Just a question from someone very new at this. Since you are using two different flours could the 6 minute mix be long enough to develop the gluten in the BF? Then the 8 minute mix over kneads the BF gluten but not long enough to develop the OO flour. Then the 10 minute mix is long enough to develop the OO gluten?

Bert

ponzu · « **Reply #82 on:** December 03, 2010, 10:13:36 PM »

Quote from: boudie on December 03, 2010, 03:13:34 PM

I love this experiment and really appreciate the attitude on the forum of trying to help each other out.

Just a question from someone very new at this. Since you are using two different flours could the 6 minute mix be long enough to develop the gluten in the BF? Then the 8 minute mix over kneads the BF gluten but not long enough to develop the OO flour. Then the 10 minute mix is long enough to develop the OO gluten?

Bert

Bert,

Thank you for your interest. i assume you are referring to the prior posts on the 6,8,10 experiments.

Please note that for the most recent post this was a 100 % Harvest king APF bake with only a 4 minute mix in the Bosch. Of course I also did several "Tartine" turns during the bulk rise which also functioned to develop gluten.

Your theory about the varying mixing times for the blend of flours is an interesting one though.

AZ

boudie · « **Reply #83 on:** December 04, 2010, 07:27:35 AM »

Yes I am speaking of the 6, 8 and 10 minute mixing time experiment. I am a long time bread baker and fairly new at high temp pizza baking. In my experience I have never seen gluten develop, then lose it only to then re-develolp.

FYI - I also use a Bosch Universal Plus to mix my dough. I cook in a WFO so if you ever wanted to run a side by side experiment I am in.

Bert

ponzu · « **Reply #84 on:** December 04, 2010, 12:20:10 PM »

Quote from: boudie on December 04, 2010, 07:27:35 AM

Yes I am speaking of the 6, 8 and 10 minute mixing time experiment. I am a long time bread baker and fairly new at high temp pizza baking. In my experience I have never seen gluten develop, then lose it only to then re-develolp.

FYI - I also use a Bosch Universal Plus to mix my dough. I cook in a WFO so if you ever wanted to run a side by side experiment I am in.

Bert

Boudie,

I would be very interested in your results in a 6,8,10 experiment. My results remain a mystery even to me.

At his point I am using the bosch for an initial short knead and then developing the gluten over time with a "Tartine Bread" technique. I think the 6'8'10 experiment showed me that more is not always better when it comes to kneading, which gave me the freedom to make this jump.

Incidentally, What type of WFO do you have? I'm in the market so am always looking for WFO insight.

boudie · « **Reply #85 on:** December 05, 2010, 06:47:48 AM »

AZ

I will try to duplicate your results with the 6, 8, and 10 minute mix. You said you made a 4 ball batch, how much flour did you use? What was the weight of the balls? I want to try and duplicate what you did as much as possible.

My oven is a Forno Bravo Casa2G90. First pizza's came out of it this past July. I can easily do two 13" - 14" pizzas at a time. Usually I can manage the temp anywhere between 700 and 900 depending on what I want to do but I am going into my first winter with it. We have already had some temps around freezing and it does add some nuances.

I have to tell you there is a culture being built at our house. It is a great time having folks over, firing up the oven, cooking pies and opening a few bottles. I don't know how to describe but the fire going, good food and friends, you get the idea!

Take care,

Bert

ponzu · « **Reply #86 on:** December 05, 2010, 08:12:32 PM »

Quote from: boudie on December 05, 2010, 06:47:48 AM

AZ

I will try to duplicate your results with the 6, 8, and 10 minute mix. You said you made a 4 ball batch, how much flour did you use? What was the weight of the balls? I want to try and duplicate what you did as much as possible.

My oven is a Forno Bravo Casa2G90. First pizza's came out of it this past July. I can easily do two 13" - 14" pizzas at a time. Usually I can manage the temp anywhere between 700 and 900 depending on what I want to do but I am going into my first winter with it. We have already had some temps around freezing and it does add some nuances.

I have to tell you there is a culture being built at our house. It is a great time having folks over, firing up the oven, cooking pies and opening a few bottles. I don't know how to describe but the fire going, good food and friends, you get the idea!

Take care,

Bert

Bert,

Those were 6 ball batches ( 2 balls each of 6,8, and 10 minute dough.) Each ball was about 275 gm of 60 % hydration, 2.7% salt dough with a 60/40 mix of APF and Caputo flours. 4 % starter.

Great to hear you like your 2g90. If you were to do it over again, would you get the 110? Your comments about the culture shift fired me up. I absolutely can't wait to cook my first WFO pie.

AZ

boudie · « **Reply #87 on:** December 06, 2010, 06:24:31 AM »

AZ

I have 20+ people coming over tonight for pizza and then leave for a trip to the West Coast for the rest of the week. I don't want to try an "experiment" for tonight but maybe tomorrow before I head out I can get the batch mixed for this weekend.

I know there is a lot advice out there on WFO's and the one thought that most people say is, "always go with the next bigger oven." This is what I did when a got the 2G90. I stepped up one size and I have to say it really works well. After using it now since July I am really happy. Two pizzas at a time is perfect for me. I have found that I like a nice even controlled pace when cooking. Tongiht I can easily bake 20+ pies in 75 minutes and still have a great time talking to guest, enjoying some wine, and not be cooking all night.

Now 20+ is rare for us but still having 12 - 15 is not uncommon. I like the size.

Its like anything, I can describe the culture all I want in words but until you experience it for yourself it is hard to imagine. Tonight we are supplying the dough, sauce and cheese. Our guest are coming over with their favorite toppings. Sometimes I even make a lower hydration dough. This way if some kids are coming over or people even want to "build their own" I let them do it. The lower hydration can sit on the peel longer without sticking and is easier to handle.

Something about firing up the oven and seeing those flames! I don't know where you are located or if you get to the Atlanta area but you are welcome anytime.

Take care,

Bert

ponzu · « **Reply #88 on:** December 07, 2010, 02:13:19 AM »

Quote from: boudie on December 06, 2010, 06:24:31 AM

AZ

I have 20+ people coming over tonight for pizza and then leave for a trip to the West Coast for the rest of the week. I don't want to try an "experiment" for tonight but maybe tomorrow before I head out I can get the batch mixed for this weekend.

I know there is a lot advice out there on WFO's and the one thought that most people say is, "always go with the next bigger oven." This is what I did when a got the 2G90. I stepped up one size and I have to say it really works well. After using it now since July I am really happy. Two pizzas at a time is perfect for me. I have found that I like a nice even controlled pace when cooking. Tongiht I can easily bake 20+ pies in 75 minutes and still have a great time talking to guest, enjoying some wine, and not be cooking all night.

Now 20+ is rare for us but still having 12 - 15 is not uncommon. I like the size.

Its like anything, I can describe the culture all I want in words but until you experience it for yourself it is hard to imagine. Tonight we are supplying the dough, sauce and cheese. Our guest are coming over with their favorite toppings. Sometimes I even make a lower hydration dough. This way if some kids are coming over or people even want to "build their own" I let them do it. The lower hydration can sit on the peel longer without sticking and is easier to handle.

Something about firing up the oven and seeing those flames! I don't know where you are located or if you get to the Atlanta area but you are welcome anytime.

Take care,

Bert

Boudie,

Thank you for the kind offer. If I am ever in Atlanta I will definately take you up on your offer.

Now I have 2 reasons to visit the ATL. Varasano's and Boudies!

AZ

boudie · « **Reply #89 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:34:07 AM »

AZ:

I repeated you test with the recipe you recommended. The only difference was I used .01% IDY instead of natural starter. Sorry, not enough time today.

Observations:

I would say I did not get the same results. The 6 minute dough I had to be real gentle with and felt like it would tear at any moment. The 8 minute dough did tear but it was so much softer than the 6 I just jumped right in. I put my finger through it with the bottom tear and the little whole at the top of the picture was me pushing it but it felt like it would keep going. The 10 minute dough was great. Easily window paned and could of kept going if I wanted.

As you look at the pictures you can even see the 6 minute dough was "lumpy" and it responded the way it looked.

Below are the pictures, first is 6, then 8 then 10!

Bert

JConk007 · « **Reply #90 on:** December 07, 2010, 05:35:50 PM »

Bert Thanks for doing the experiment for us WFO guys. Interesting indeed? those pics were after how much rest time?
and about the people and Party I do often time 20 + pies
And dont you just love it when they say WOW this is the best I have ever Had! Keeps me goin!
John

boudie · « **Reply #91 on:** December 07, 2010, 07:12:19 PM »

Each dough ball had rested for 20 minutes before I did the window pane test.

Last nights party was actually a blast. It was 28 degrees here, which is very unusual. I heated the WFO a little longer than normal, 1.5 hours, and the temp stayed right under 900 the entire time. We had 4 or 5 people outside most of the time. I have never had a cooking experience like that. Everything says people should be inside and they were outside. The WFO was still at 450 degrees this morning after 12 hours from the last pie coming out.

There were a lot of great comments and I have to say the 65% HR dough I did came out really good. I did the flour mixture I like best but actually did 3 different hydration ratios, 65%, 60% and 57%. (I usually do 62%.) FYI - flour was 50/50 OO/Harvest King. It was one of those moments were the temp and the dough came together.

ponzu · « **Reply #92 on:** December 08, 2010, 01:52:31 PM »

Quote from: boudie on December 07, 2010, 11:34:07 AM

AZ:

I repeated you test with the recipe you recommended. The only difference was I used .01% IDY instead of natural starter. Sorry, not enough time today.

Observations:

I would say I did not get the same results. The 6 minute dough I had to be real gentle with and felt like it would tear at any moment. The 8 minute dough did tear but it was so much softer than the 6 I just jumped right in. I put my finger through it with the bottom tear and the little whole at the top of the picture was me pushing it but it felt like it would keep going. The 10 minute dough was great. Easily window paned and could of kept going if I wanted.

As you look at the pictures you can even see the 6 minute dough was "lumpy" and it responded the way it looked.

Below are the pictures, first is 6, then 8 then 10!

Bert

Boudie,

Thanks for doing this.

Very interesting. Your results are more in line with what I was expecting when I first did the 6-8-10 experiment.

So you did an autolyse prior to mixing? If so the only differences in our experiments were the use of commercial yeast and the hydration (mine was 62 yours 65%.)

In terms of the photos the 6 minute window pane actually looks to have the least webbing and the thinnest surface. Perhaps this is because of the lack of gluten and the slackness of the dough. I do see what you mean about the dough itself looking lumpy (which is why I asked about the autolyse.)

Anyway very interestin and thank you again.

AZ

boudie · « **Reply #93 on:** December 09, 2010, 08:47:57 AM »

AZ

Yes I did the 20 minute autolyse. Also for clarity, I did use the 62% HR. The 65% batch I did was a different batch. So everything was the exact same accept the commercial yeast. So your hydration was a little more than mine since you used the natural starter.

I understand what you are saying from the pictures. The main thing I noticed was that each ball consistently got smoother and easier to open as the mixing time went up.

Fun experiment! Thanks for letting me be involved.

ponzu · « **Reply #94 on:** January 18, 2011, 11:41:50 PM »

Haven't been posting much because my techique has been pretty steady. I've been doing same day preps with 20% young leavens and getting really consistent results.

This was a revisiting of the long bulk rise experiment that I had difficulty with last year.

The dough was 100% harvest king APF, 65% hydration, 3% starter, 2.7% salt.

I did a 20 minute autolyse, a 4 minute mix in the BUP and a 20 hour bulk on a cool windowsill (65 degrees?) and a 4 hour proof after balling.

The cooking technique was a little different from my usual 1-1.5 minute blast on broil; I heated the stone to 790 with the broiler, loaded the pie, switched to pure convection for about a minute, then fineshed the pie for about 1.5 minutes on broil with a couple of turns to ensure even leoparding. the idea was to allow for oven spring on the hot stone, then allow for sufficient time for the cornicone to set and cook eliminating the gum layer, and finally developing char on the top.

I have to say it worked very well. The crust was crunchy and open and evenly cooked. There was a slight char.

This particular pie was a bit untraditional, topped with the thai version of hainanese chicken; kao man gai (this was leftover from a more traditionally presentation- served with rice the night before!) Though a bit CPKish this combination of spicey/sweet garlicky gingery chicken on a margarita was really a lot of fun to eat.

Criticisms? The dough was a bit underkneaded. 275 g only spread to about 12.5 inches instead of 13.5. I think the long fermentation flavors though not overwhelming would have been a bit more balanced by 2.9-3% salt. I would still like a bit more chrunch!

dellavecchia · « **Reply #95 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:16:11 AM »

I could not tell that this was cooked in a home oven. You and Chau are hitting it out of the park with these NP oven pies. If I was not currently obsessed with pizza in teglia, I would be all over trying to duplicate this in my own oven. I am REALLY starving for a NP pie, but the picture below shows the sad state of affairs concerning my WFO.

John

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #96 on:** January 19, 2011, 08:24:58 AM »

John, the wood looks a bit wet but other than that I don't see a real problem.

Just kidding. I hope I was able to get a chuckle out of you. Desperate times call for desperate measures. You should try your Roberto clone dough in the oven one more time just for grins. Just make a tiny batch though as I don't want you getting mad at me if it does work.

Chau

dellavecchia · « **Reply #97 on:** January 19, 2011, 09:54:05 AM »

Chau - The problem is that I can't get my stone above 650 or so. I have to investigate a better stone.

John

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #98 on:** January 19, 2011, 09:57:00 AM »

Quote from: dellavecchia on January 19, 2011, 09:54:05 AM

Chau - The problem is that I can't get my stone above 650 or so. I have to investigate a better stone.

John

John have you tried stacking stones or do you have a steel plate to place over the stone?

dellavecchia · « **Reply #99 on:** January 19, 2011, 10:01:27 AM »

Not yet. I will give it a try this weekend. If I went to williams sonoma or the like this weekend and just bought a stone, would that be a waste of money - or should I order one online?

John